Got a oddball job coming up in a few days, I have to help a friend set 10,000 pounds of lead in the keel of his boat for ballast. The lead is in 60 pound ingots or bricks. the plan is to more or less lay the bricks and fill in between with some type of mortar or concrete.
The problems:
Being compact as possible is very important, so any type of aggrete in the mix won’t work. We will stack the bricks tightly and only fill the remaining gaps.
Being solid is very important. Sure don’t want all this weight shifting during heavy seas. (The mortar is there to only keep the ingots from shifting, there will be a welded in place lid installed when we are done.
So whats a good mix , useing only cement dust and sand? Should I throw in some fibers?
Any better ideas?
Thanks
TIM
Replies
If the bricks are all shaped the same, could you just use waterproof glue/caulk between them as you stack them?
-Don
melt em down and pour em in!
Witty tagline...
10,000#!!!
is this a small tanker??
But OTOH...
I saw a tv report on a mega-yacht from theur of the last century that was remodeled and re-powered.
After they took out the steam engines and boilers and put in deisel, the boat was way to high in the water.
so they designed a master suit with 100 tons (IIRC)of marble to make up the lost ballast.
looked like the inside of a palace!!
Witty tagline...
That is a lot of lead brick. Almost a thousand.
Are they in some type of trough or container? How are they shaped that you would have a large enough space between them to require filling? How is ballast normally secured in boat?
Mortar is generally not very strong when shear forces are applied to it. It will bond to porus surfaces, but easily comes off most metal.
My inclanation would be to use a polyurethane glue, and stack the lead in sometype of running bond pattern, so that each brick is overlaping another one and secured with the glue. Might even consider using a torch to soften or solder the ingot after the first course, if it could be done safetly.
If mortar is the normal method, use 2 parts brixment or kosmortar and 3 parts masornary sand. If you are mixing by hand, mix it dry first and then add the water.
Tkae a couple of pictures and post them if you can. Sounds like an interesting, if back breaking, project.
Dave
I don't know but if it was me I'd be asking this kind of question in a Fine Boat Building forum not a Fine Home Building forum. (The Wooden Boat Forum)
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In reply to everyone.
1. I don't think glue is a option. there will be gaps of up to 2 inches.
2 Melt the lead and cast in place. Don't have the equipment, and that really scares me!
3. Its a 64 foot aluminum boat. I understand this amount of ballast is normal (kind of boggles the mind , doesn't it)
4. Thanks for the link to wooden boat, unfortunatley it did not work on my computer. Will try on my own to access.
My back is already hurting just thinking about the task ahead. How big a pile of lead do you think 10,000 pounds of lead is? How about 4' X 4' X 2'. Amazing!
It seems to me that you could simply 'grout' each layer of bricks with sand, screed off a level surface on top of each layer for the next, and then start the next layer. Pack it in there nicely and nothing will move. Can you be sure the lid will be fitted tightly on top of whatever the pack is?
A lot of sailboats are ballasted with concrete alone, with maybe even some scrap iron thrown in....obviously, the lead takes up less space, but it's pretty expensive to buy those ingots.
As Jerrold Hayes pointed out, youll get a bigger response over on the WoodenBoat forum, but, having build a couple of smaller internally ballasted sailboats in the past (I'm not an expert by any means!), I'm a little curious about a few things:
Is this a bare hull to be finished and rigged by the owner? Or is it an older boat that is being reballasted or refitted? What is the keel configuration?
Ballasting a sailboat can involve a bit more science than just filling up the bilges. If it's a racing boat, trim of the hull in the water is very important and the ballast must be placed to maintain an even keel after the boat is fitted and rigged.
If it's a cruising boat, it's sometimes important to place some of the ballast so it can be moved so the boat can be properly trimmed when fully loaded.
That your client/friend just went out and spent a lot of cash on lead ingots without a plan as to placing them makes me think I'd not want to ship out with him...
First of all , I don't know squat about boats.
My friend is a former boat builder / aluminum fabricator. He has lived on the boat for 3 or 4 years while finishing it up. I don't know what kind or type of boat you would call it . He seems to be pretty darn anal when it comes to doing things right on the boat. I do know he purchased the plans from a naval archy. He told me today that the 10,000 pounds to be installed was only half. I guess he is going to see how she behaves and go from there.
Finally saw where its going today, ain't gonna be fun. A 4' deep trough, 1' wide at the bottom tapering up to 2' at the top. He had just pulled out maybe 25 sandbags because they were not heavy/ dense enough.
The boat is currently only motor powered, but I know the long range plans are to add mast(s) & sail(s).
Tim
P.s The boat has already been on a long trip around the Aluetiantins (I can't spell) around Dutch Harbor AK. And the weather there really sux even on a nice day
I thought of this earlier, but since he already had lead ingots, forgot about it: use bags of lead shot, either still in the bags or pour it between the ingots. Wouldn't totally solve the problem of shifting, but would help--maybe mix it with epoxy.
PS--The proper terminology for stone, gravel and sand (and I suppose, broken glass, chunks of whatever) is, as Piffin said, "aggregate".
Edited 6/26/2005 8:16 am ET by Danno
I'm with Nothman. Something is amiss in this scenario. But supposing that he has the right amt of lead and the right location in the hull, I would suggest an epoxy grout. I( can try to ask some of the boatmen around here in a couple of days what they do to install lead. Pouring it molten would surely be best, but I wouldn't want to breathe all those fumes either. I'd end up stupidBTW, you said no aggregate, but the sand IS an aggregate. just one of the smaller kinds, though not the smallest.
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Ok you win. So what is the proper terminolgy for the stone and sand (oops, I meant very fine stones). Everybody I know has always refered to it as gravel and sand.
on the rock in Sitka, AK.
Aggregate is the solids in the mix - all sizes from sand to fist sized stones. Generall, the higher percentage of larger stone yields the stronger concrete for load bearing purposes, but you could not make crete with just 3" stones because the voids would never fill, so smaller particles fill the voids. In your case, the voids are betwen the ingots, so you need smaller aggregate to start with, and there is no need for laod bearing strength. I think Sam has things right. I know the old sailors in wooden vessels just used rocks
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I saw a segment on TOH..( yes, i scan it on occaision..LOL) and they used bricks as a paved walkway in Key West..supposedly from the Yankee sailors vessels ...they used them as ballast.
It struck me funny..we used bricks on the pipeorgan bellows as a regulater of sorts..it kept the air pressure more consistant and "weighted" out the fluctuations from the huge blower that fed the bellows.
Here is the oddity..we hadda wrap the bricks in a tarpaper to keep unwanted moisture out..see, they'd gain weight with high humidity and lose weight with winter dry times...effectively altering the air pressure in the bellows, and the tune of the organ.
I wonder why the pipes were mostly lead, and the bellows weights were clay..?
be coming back inside to the AC every 1/2 hour..cuz the garden is drought riddden and it is freaking hot. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I kidnapped the runaway bride..her eyse weren't like that in the before pics.
Here is what I'd do:Instead of glue or other means, I'd simply buy big bags of buckshot or other small scraps from a local scrapyard. Simply put down a layer of brick, fill the gaps, continue until done. Some minor shifting inside the ballast keel isn't going to do much to boat stability, after all it's very close to the CG, etc.No, if I were your friend, I would pay VERY close attention to the roof of this chamber. As in, how do I prevent 10 tons of lead crashing through the floor if a rogue wave rolls the boat. So, I would focus less on the side to side motion and more on how to keep the stuff out of the saloon if the boat goes keel up.
Tim,
Once all the voids are filled, there will be no way for the load to shift, so there is no worry about cement sticking the the lead or the sides of the hold.
Cement and 100 grit sand at 1:3 ratio. Add lots of retarder and some water to make a thick gravy. Add lead shot, #4 sounds good, maybe down to #7, until each shot is just coated with slurry. Add enough retarder/water mix to make it sorta flowable, (cold syrup.)
Set lead brick, stir and pour slurry over to just cover, rod the joints to remove air bubbles. Set another layer of brick. Stir and pour slurry, etc, etc, etc, ad backbrokeum. You can probably drive nails thru the bricks to pin them to each other also. Test drive. Add brick and slurry as needed.
Fill hold with cement/styro-bead mix, (1:6:6 ratio, easier to remove,) wait two months; or wait two months and fill hold with expanding, pourable foam. Attach lid.
25 sandbags = 2500lbs? I would start with 5000lbs lead and see how she floats, then go from there.
SamT
Non-shrink grout. Not the stuff for ceramic tile, but what is used for setting large motors and pumps on baseplates, like in a factory. Mixes up very smooth and pours fairly easily. Similar to self-leveling floor mix.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
This may be a more expensive way to go, but buying lead shot like 12 ga number 1 buck shot. It will pour in and conform to the internal shape of the keel. Becauseit is round the shot will rest against each other and not shift around. The top of the shot can be covered with cloth and then the door at the top of the keel can be placed on top and secured. In retrospect your friend could get 50 cal. black powder shot, it is larget than 12 ga. Yes it will be will be less densely packed because of the airgap, but if the weight isn't adequate bird shot which is much smaller can be added and will fall between the 50 cal shot.
So now all you have to do is choose a ammo dealer and convince him you are not starting a revelotion.
Good luck,
Bill