I’m doing a 10′ x 60′ driveway and 23′ x 40′ pad in front of the garage. Location is Western Pennsylvania, driveway is steep.
Customer likes the looks of pavers, but the quotes I have been getting from subs suggest the material cost of pavers is around the same as the installed cost of concrete. Does that sound right? Customer is on a budget, so it makes a difference with such a large area.
Are there advantages to concrete over pavers, or vice versa? Concrete would be exposed aggregate, we would consider doing that in house since we wouldn’t have to float it (I’m lousy at floating).
Side note – some locals claim sugar water can be used instead of the commercial spray for the exposed aggregate. Is this true, and if so, what proportion of sugar to water?
Thanks.
Replies
I would be cautious about exposed aggregate on a sloped driveway. The aggregate is usually a smooth stone, and it can get pretty slick when it's wet (or icy).
Have you thought about stamped concrete? It's very popular here in California and I think the cost is pretty competitive. I've seen it done with regular shapes (like pavers) and random shapes (like stonework). They color the concrete so it looks "real".
Here's a picture I took a year ago at a house I was working on. This driveway is stamped concrete and you have to look to find the expansion joints.
Stamped cc is not a real good selection in areas where heavy snow removal equipment is going to scraping the surface. That stamped pattern will turn to dust in no time.
Pavers have some redeeming value, but they depend on the type and style. Yeah, they'll be more expensive.
Colored cc with a peastone embedded surface may have some merit.
>I would be cautious about exposed aggregate on a sloped driveway....Have you thought about stamped concrete?If you think aggregate is slick on a slope......whew...stamped will give you a thrill ride. We had a 6' stamped band going from the driveway to the parking area. Even in a rain we could slide on the band. Remember, the stamp makes the surface smooth (as compared to a broomed surface), plus it is coated with a sealer, which makes it even slicker. The fake grout lines don't help.Concrete with a broomed surface or asphalt/macadam work well on sloped drives. For decoration, nice curbs, stone retaining walls, etc are useful.
That was my thought also. I'd go one further and recommend that if it is very steep that the highway rake be used for traction rather than a regular concrete broom.
I'd go one further and recommend that if it is very steep that the highway rake be used for traction rather than a regular concrete broom.
I'm not familiar with a highway rake - is that just a more agressive broom? Couldn't find a picture on the internet.
The driveway is steep - it essentially drops one story in about 30', call it 10' in 30' or so. They don't park on the drive if there is any snow or ice - the vehicle slides down. I happened to park on the "level" top part of the drive, by the street, heard a noise, and turned around in time to see my pickup start sliding down the hill.
So I think more traction would be better :-)
If we go with a broomed or raked finish, is bullfloating enough, or does it still need to be troweled? My crew can do the bullfloating, but I don't have anyone (including myself) that finishes well enough to do steel trowel work.
If it's not obvious, we don't do much concrete work, mostly just remodeling. But, it's a good customer and I'd like to keep them happy.
Thanks.
http://www.bontool.com/category1.asp?D=conc&S=con%5Ftex&G=G1&C=HI&N=1
This is what I was referring to.
Once again I'll point out that another reason to not use pavers in this situation is that they'll tend to "roll" under the force of the tires. This will have the slight advantage of keeping the pavement rough, but will look like carp and will eventually cause the drive to fail (blocks popping out entirely).I'd also vote for concrete, coarsely broomed, or for an asphalt mix selected for good traction. If done right crushed rock (macadam) will work, but on this steep a slope it needs to be fairly coarse and rough.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Once again I'll point out that another reason to not use pavers in this situation is that they'll tend to "roll" under the force of the tires.
Sorry, I did see your earlier comment and concluded that pavers are not the right solution for this application.
Yeah, just wanted to make sure it hadn't gotten lost in the noise.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
If you're going to rake it, then you don't need to trowel it. A good bull-float should suffice. "Good" is relative. I've seen that done really good and really mediocre.
Driveway??!!
In these parts, anything with that much slope is called a cliff!! - lol
Forget about the stamped concrete, aggregate, and even broomed finish. I would go with the "highway rake" (I think that's what we call rain grooving). You're gonna need all the traction you can get when it's wet.
I was thinking cogs and a funicular.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
cogs and a funicular??
Yer funnin wit me, aincha, Dan!! - lol
The driveway is steep - it essentially drops one story in about 30', call it 10' in 30' or so.
Wow. That's a hair steeper than the driveway I rerouted here. My steepest parts were 30%. Tried a technique I'd seen in a Tuscan hill town for texturing concrete. Made diagonal grooves to channel the water.
It didn't work. Still slippery with rain. As rerouting isn't a possibility there, I'd be going with a rough exposed aggregate. Freezing water (breaking the concrete) is going to be an issue, but minimized with that much slope.
If you have a problem placing (I did) it's simple to pour another thin coat on top. 15 yrs and many concrete truck deliveries later, my now-abandoned concrete drive is still in great shape. And still slippery in the rain. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
What about tar and chip? Someone local mentioned that as a possibility, suggested that it would be more economical than concrete but offer a lot more traction.
Anyone have any links for tar and chip or any experiences to share?
Thanks.
What about tar and chip?
Uncertain what that means to you, but here it's my neighbor's driveway. Complete with loose rocks on the surface. No traction to speak of until you spin off the loose stuff. Then it's really ugly.
Cheapest best would be asphalt grindings. Pick out the chunks and roll the rest on a hot day. Some waste oil added will really make it solid. Around here about the same material price as crushed stone. Difficult to find, but now's the time.
Placement on that slope's going to be interesting no matter what you use.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Yeah, I don't think tar and chip offers very good traction. The chip covering is quickly worn off in traction areas, leaving just the tar.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
DanThis sounds like a project that he should get a REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER to design..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I was thinking he needs an Otis guy.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
What's the layout of the house/lot/access?
Maybe you gotta reconsider the approach to give less slope. How much room do you have?
The house is on the side of a small mountain (literally). Their is an oval street, like an overgrown culdesac, with about 20 houses inside the oval and about 30 houses around the outside of the oval. The mountain peak was in the center of the oval.
My client's house is on the outside of the oval. The front yard is essentially flat to the front of the house. The driveway slopes from street level down to the back of the house, and the garage is on the back of the house, parallel to the street, with the floor at the house basement floor level.
The lot slopes from the street to the front of the house more or less level, then drops on both sides of the house so that ground level is at the basement floor level at the back of the house. There is a about a 5' steep drop behind the house, then a gentle downward slope to the back lot line.
There is not room on the lot to move the drive - the lot is too narrow, and there is a power line on the other side.
I don't see a way to reorient the drive, but I'm open to suggestions.
Tar and chip, if it's what I've seen going by similar names, will end up with obnoxious ruts, because the tar is not enough to hold the stones, and the stones will push out from the tire tracks to the side. Any time you spin, you'll kick out enough to create a divot.Whenever I've seen tar and chip, it's been to hold down road dust, and had to be renewed every year.
"Sealcoating", "chip coating", "tar and feathers" -- used to seal the asphalt, mainly to prevent water infiltration. The chips are just to protect the "tar", make it a little less messy on cars, and provide a hair better traction than wet tar alone.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
In the mountains I grew up in, there was no asphalt base. They'd spread a load of stone over the otherwise dirt road and then follow it with a tar truck. They did it right before the summer tourist traffic started. Kept the dust down, but was hell for those of us who had to drive through it wet and sticky for the first 48 hours or so to get to work/school, etc.
What I see is generally "tar" first, then the "chips". The "chips" are pea-sized crushed rock of some sort.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Here in Reno, we can get away with pavers ... IF the installation has the proper attention to detail. But then, we don't have much of a 'frost line', and moisture content of the soil is almost nil.
An that's your concern: frost. More specifically, the movement caused by freezing and thawing ... as well as water saturation in the Spring. With pavers, every piece is going to move ... with no promise that they will return to the correct spots. Even a slight shift will greatly complicate snow clearing.
Concrete, in contrast, is made of large pieces. That makes it more resistant to these problems. You'll still have trouble if you fail to provide for drainage, or prepare your base.
With a slope, the concrete needs to be textured. This means floating it - don't consider not floating it, as the surface will be weak, and spall off within a year- then going over it with a stiff broom. Or, while still "soft," scoring the surface with a concrete saw, like you see highway crews do. Either way, the texture should have some slope to it, to help water drain from the surface.
This means floating it - don't consider not floating it, as the surface will be weak, and spall off within a year- then going over it with a stiff broom.
I wasn't clear in my terminology - I was really referring to troweling, not floating.
So we would bull float it, but not steel trowel it. Process would be place, screed, bull float, broom, cut expansion joints the day after.
Is that what you meant, or do you mean it really has to be troweled as well? It's my trowelling skills that are lacking :-)
On a steep driveway pavers will tilt on you unless set on a concrete base.
How's about those oversized pavers they sell as short retaining wall and column purposes? When involved with the larger scopes of long driveways, regular pavers look too busy.
Looks just like tumbled multicolored hi strength cc pavers, just much bigger - like 16 x 7.5 x 3.5 to 4"
I used them to make a sidewalk for my mother, line a narrow drive and build short (12") retaining walls. They haven't budged in 5 years.
If they aren't designed for pavers they likely don't have the strength characteristics required.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Well, since no one else put it forward, check with your local paving guys about macadam. This can give you several options for finish color/material, and differing amounts of smooth/rough. It will need no more extra subsurface prep than the high quality prep pavers or a poured concrete drive will (and you can't skimp on the prep in any event).
Just an option. Might be ludicrously expensive, too (or only a tiny percentage less than pavers).
Just that "steep" and "pavers" just nags at me, the least bit.
If you go with poured concrete, look into coloring the concrete, and pouring it into patterns esablished by the expansion & control joints (or added ones to create a pattern). You can make a couple bands that parallel the drive way, and set "diamonds" in a third color between those--just takes some planning, then coordinating with the concrete supplier.
In addition to pavers rolling, they are typically placed on a bed of sand. Which of course washes out after a few years on that kind of slope. If you get heavy rains I'd even be worried about some of the gravel base washing out. Hard to get a good seal with pavers. Another vote for concrete (and I'm a big paver fan).