Hello all,
I’ve got a problem with these two. My framer who, who frames about 45 houses a year, and who is giving me a very good price is adamant about not going with this supplier. He says the lumber co. often low bids to get the business and that the cut sheet is light on material. He further says that you often then have to go back to them at some point to purchase more, and accrue more fees as well, amongst lesser issues. Said co. of course denies this, and disagrees with framers view of the cut sheet. The framer says it’s considerably light on some material.
Now here’s the difficulty. This company is very big in the area and generally regarded well. They know my situation, being new to home building, and have made overtures of wanting to build a good relationship. To this end they agreed to stick with their original prices on material from a month old cut sheet, despite, as they’ve said, taking loss on some items. They’ve been accommodating and helpful in general.
However, weeks after i told them i would go with them, i hired the framer, who has brought up these major issues. I’ve addressed these issues with the lumber co. but it has not been resolved satisfactorily. They contend that their take-off is reasonably accurate, and dispute the large quantities my framer insists are missing. And, a very troubling thing is that on two of these items it is a supposedly a very simple matter of determining quantities, but they are so far apart on this, that i am left to believe that some one is not on the up and up.
I don’t want to leave this lumber co. holding the bag, so to speak, but I’ve got two very disparate views here. My forman who has 15 years framing experience agrees with my framer so I am faced with having to cut these guys lose and potentially souring a business relationship as it is late in the process to be changing. Further i can not envision them upping the quantities while also sticking to the total price. My sales rep insists that this is such a great price they’re giving me. The framer works quite a bit with another lumber co and prefers i use them. That other co says they will beat the quote and give the quantities and quality my framer wants.
Opinions and thoughts in general on this are welcome. I’m curious if this is somewhat typical
One other thing, the framer contends since prices have come down on several items, that this co is being disingenous with their claim to loosing money in some areas and the claim that they are giving “such a good price.”
Thanks,
DP
Edited 6/24/2004 9:56 pm ET by dperfe
Edited 6/24/2004 9:56 pm ET by dperfe
Edited 6/24/2004 10:10 pm ET by dperfe
Replies
Spread the wealth.
If your sub and supplier are both treating you so well, you may want to try the other supplier out for a few homes.
still giving biz to your existing rep, maintaining your relationship with your sub, possibly gaining new contact through another channel.
Might be good for business.
Mike
Can't you figure out what the correct quantity should be, and then know who's bullsh!tting you?
Not to be condescending, the above sounds more critical than I intend it, but particularly if you're new to home building you should have your estimating ducks in a row.
remodeler
I don't get it.
Who makes up your materials list? The lumber yard? Or your framer?
If you are having your takeoffs done by the yard, you are, I hope, actually getting the material they list counted and delivered to the site AND verified by who ever signs the delivery ticket.
If the yard consistently underestimates on the takeoff it's your company and your pricing to the customer that's taking the hit because your price is based on, among other things, the cost of the material you need. Constantly going back for more stuff eats into your profit.
If the yard's takeoffs are good, you need to determine where the materials are going and why your framer and foreman always seem to need more and blame it on the yard's figures or a short truck.
Too much stuff on job sites ends up in the dumpster due to waste and poor planning. Chopping up 12 footers for blocking when you already have plenty of offcuts comes to mind. Other stuff leaves the site at the end of each day, contributing to the materials shortage problem.
I think you need to get a handle on this by doing your own takeoff, comparing it with the yard, placing the order and being there to check it off when delivered. Then see what the actual usages are. Your framer may be the greatest since sliced bread but just because he knows how to stack the parts doesn't mean he also makes the best use of the materials he's slicing and dicing.
Why not have him do a takeoff for comparison, also, if he's so certain that the yard is wrong. You can compare all three, his, yours and the yard's and then sort it out from there.
Bottom line - it's your company. Take charge and get out of the he said, she said rut.
Ask the Framer to make a lumber list for you. Then compare it to what the yard says you need. If it's close show the framer and see if he'll give them a try. If it isn't ask the Rep to come over and talk about it.
As more and more yards do lumber take offs, more nad more guys who have never framed a house are doing lumber take offs. Only the guy who's gonna nail that stuff up knows what he'll really need. Or, maybe your framer is like a crew I once worked for. We used about $1000.00 more lumber on everything we framed. We were fast, the work was top notch, the houses were big. It was easy to make $1000.00 go away in the big picture.
I would get both parties together and talk it over.
That being said, there is a yard in N.J. that has the best doors and trim around. But, the customer service is so bad, it costs you about 10% on every job. I always try to steer customers away from them. So, maybe your framer knows what he's talking about.
Thanks for all the feedback and suggestions
"As more and more yards do lumber take offs, more nad more guys who have never framed a house are doing lumber take offs. Only the guy who's gonna nail that stuff up knows what he'll really need. "
I've never framed so i fall into that category, and therefore am not comfortable doing the framing takeoff. My foreman is, so I've left it to his discretion. Drywall, paint, cabinetry etc I have no difficulty with.
I will try some of these suggestions.
Thanks
DP
For what it's worth, the guy who did the take off is formeraly a concrete guy.
maybe a little simple minded...but...
why not have the guy actually doing the framing do the take off, he'll know better then anyone what he needs...
if he has a problem doing the take off because he feel's that's not his job, either throw him a bone and offer some nominal fee for the added work he's doing, or tell him to quit whinning, your choice.
personaly I'd rather do any take off myself, for anything I'm doing, that way there is only one person to blame if you don't have enough material.
I think RalphW is dead on... If you are new to doing takeoffs... All the more reason to do them yourself! Get with your framer and do it together even... and pick his brain some. In the end... it's your money that gets wasted. The more you know, the more you can control your costs. After a while, you can look at a plan and count every stick in a house. It's worth your time to learn to do... Building is all about learning anyhoo... It never stops if your going to be the best at your craft.
A. What's the $ amount or % difference?
B. Sometimes it's easier AND faster for me to carry in six 10' 2 x 6s to cut up for blocking than go around picking up all the scrap. Same goes for sheet goods. That will add to the materials list but it will also make MY efforts more efficient and cost ME less.
C. Does each lumber yard give you a materials/ count list when pricing the job. They should. Compare where they each feel the overage ought to be weighted. Are they providing "extra" 2x's or plywood shts?
D. The framer may have an interest in maintaining his relationship with his lumber yard. Having such a relationship helps when something needs to be delivered pronto or a delivery needs to be rescheduled. He'll know who to call to get the proper action.
E. If the framer's yard is offering more material for the same price, AND the framer aggrees to the quantities required to complete the job, well it's a no-brainer. That yard gets the job. Maybe next time the other yard will be more competitive. But then again, maybe his yard has inferior material or a poorly stocked warehouse.
Ya pays yer money, ya takes yer chances!
F.
I say sh!tcan the good framer ... and get rid of that know it all foreman too ...
why highly skilled tradesmen are a dime a dozen ...
where as an average ... or possibly below average lumber yard ... why they're hard to come by!
After all ... who's more important anyways?
and in the end ... if all goes well ... you have have saved a few pennies to build an inferior product .. probably not though ... because better materials and a well stocked site always end up saving time/money in the end ....
plus ... your salesman is happy ... that should count for something.
penny wise ... pound foolish .... ring a bell?
this is a tough one to figure out .....
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
I read all the way thru this oie trying to find the words to express what I was thinking here.
Thanks for saviong me the trouble.
You've got PST man!
Per
Spec
Tive.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Agreed. this one sealed it for me
"My forman who has 15 years framing experience agrees"
Unless they're in cahoots building houses on the side from pilfered lumber - you've got two experienced folks telling you the same thing.
If you ask them to do the take-off to verify, pay them for the work.
Either do the take-off yourself and verify or move on to a new yard. If there is an abundance of builder yards in your area, pissing one off won't wreck you. If you are in a small town with one yard and no others close, that's another story..
I'm a framing contractor here in NJ and I do all my lumber lists as do any other framers that I've met because the few times a builder or gc had a lumber yard do a lumber list they always came up short. Unless the person in the lumber yard has ever framed a house and knows exactly where every single piece of lumber goes they come up short. They're figuring exact amount.
They come up short on joists because they're not allowing for doubling up on each side of a partition above. They're not figuring on sending any extra for moving the joists off the 16" o.c marks because a toilet waste line lands on one so therefore you have to move the joists over and then add another joist. Not allowing any extra for bad beams that you can't use so you put them aside and send them back.
I have a list for materials that includes all the stages of framing so that we know what different lengths of material is used for and where all the material is going starting from the sill sealer, sills, girders, floor joists, bridging, decking, shoes and plates, precuts, headers, bracing. That completes the first floor framing. Now the second floor framing starts from the floor joists, bridging ................... and ends at the last piece of fascia and nails.
When you do a list according too the way that your framing from the start it's easier not too forget something and come up short.
I'll tell the yard to send me the first floor if a jobsite is too small because the first floor material is marked on my list. If there's any extra material from the first floor I can deduct from the second floor list and so on.
In order for your framer too look at the lumber yards list too see if it's good then he must have a list of his own.
Those few times that the lumber yard did the list it cost time and money too go pick up material so me personally as the framer I do my own list and refuse too let the lumber yard do it because I'm giving you a price on the job and framing material is probably the most material used on a job and who knows better then me where everything will be going.
I can't tell you what lumber yard to use but as someone mentioned already maybe you can sit down with the framer and see how he figures the list this way you get too know how to do it.
Joe Carola
Edited 6/25/2004 8:15 am ET by Framer
"I say sh!tcan the good framer ... and get rid of that know it all foreman too ...
why highly skilled tradesmen are a dime a dozen ...
where as an average ... or possibly below average lumber yard ... why they're hard to come by!
After all ... who's more important anyways?"
LOL.
Thanks guys. I'm thinking a large part of the issue is that i've spent a considerable amount of time working with these guys and had built up a pretty friendly repoire, and well shucks, I don't want to be a bad guy to anyone. But that's part of the whole sales thing i'm sure.
DP
Edited 6/25/2004 9:26 am ET by dperfe
"Sales" is between you and the customer. It pays to be friendly with them.
But what you are discussing here is called management. It requires decision-making ability. Tact is good, but friendliness is an inconvenient accessory.
if your goal is to be well liked, become a strip dancer or a philanthropist, but if your goal is to have a successfull, money making business, there are times when you gotta grow up.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Here's an update on the situation. A few days back I contacted the lumber yard, and instructed them not to deliver anymore material because essentially i do not trust their takeoff, and i explained why. Since they've got a fairly substantial deposit of mine i told them that i would purchase enough material, not from the framing package, to account for the remainder of the deposit. After talking with my lawyer and a few others I decided it was in my best interest to use up the balance instead of trying to get it back, and risking a whole lot of time and trouble in the process.
The manager and area manager have been calling frequently to resolve the issue. I discussed it with the manager and told him, in short, that the issue had not been resolved, as i was led to believe, that my framer is still adament about the discrepencies and that my foreman with 20+ years experience agrees completely. Additionally, i had been given more cause for concern as a realtor acquaintance of mine let me know that on her last house build she used this company and their takeoff was light. She didn't tell me the exact additional cost but did say that it was significant to her.
I told him all this and his response was somewhat nasty. He didn't want to give any acknowlegement to my concerns. He said in a smug sarcastic tone, paraphrasing i don't recall exactly, "well excuse me if we can't be exactly dead on, i don't know anyone in the world who can but if you're going to hold that against us..." I told him it's not a question of being dead on, it's a question of being consistantly short. He then said this sales rep is just starting out and this is very important to him, this is his livelihood and that he doesn't understand how this all changed so drastically. I thought i was being pretty direct in how and why the situation changed. Anyway, the result is that the manager offered to cover any difference in the materials. To confirm what he said and to leave no ambiguity i asked him, "You're saying that you will hold to the quote and that any material shortages will be made up by you at no expense to me?" and he said yes. I couldn't believe he agreed to it. In this new light, as long as everything is in writing, I'm planning to continue with them.
THanks again,
DP
Do you have that in writing?cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
I don't know what the big beef here is. I used to sit down with the salesman and spec out a list together with him. Took all of less than an hour usually.
Then I would call out the loads, anyway I wanted them.
I knew what went where, how many, why and when. Only way to do it so far as I can tell. Usually had a good chat and a few laughs while there with the salesman. Always made a trip(s) out to check on the progress, brought out the aprons, pencils, throw a case of nails out of his trunk.
I guess times have changed.
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
>I don't want to be a bad guy to anyone. But that's part of the whole sales thing i'm sure
I don't trust suppliers. I have one that I have a good relationship with.... went and picked up a product at the mfg.'s rep because I couldn't wait for it to get to the plumbing supply yard yesterday. I knew the list price and the quote I got on it, so my multiplier was around a .75 of list which seemed high, but? Down at the rep, the guy is reading the purchase order from my supplier to write out his packing slip. I see on it that my product cost $500 to my plumbing supplier, who billed me out over $700 on it or a 30% mark-up. Which is ridiculous for wholesale, and took advantage of me because I had to have the product that day! ( a sewage ejector ).
So they got over $200 for faxing a damn piece of paper, it didn't even go on account (paid cash). And the plbg supplier came to my wedding years ago.
remodeler
Remodeler marked it how much to his customer? If it was less than 30% do you feel better about it?
Ask your wife if she feels better that you gave away X%.
You CAN NOT run a business without an adequate mark up.
That you paid cash is nice, does the price change if you charge it?
Wedding or not, business is business. If you want to keep the doors open you have to be able to pay the bills.
Joe H
There was a little more to the story...
A lot of wholesales have programs where the inside sales guys are paid a commission on certain items that they have an effect on the sales of. At most plumbing wholesalers I'm aware of, it's stuff like oatey pvc cement and hand tools. They have a lot of flexibility on the pricing of the SPIFF stuff, because the people who buy it are a lot of times guys going into buy on their company's account.
So, my pricing is set by my outside sales rep. My standard mark-ups are 5% on pipe (I have a block book which shows on a block from 1-99 where PVC is at, so I only need a quote of which block I'm at and I mark it up), mark-up 15% on fittings.
BUT, the pump fell into the spiff category, and the manager bumped it to give his counter guy a $20 bonus. Anyway, yes 30% is ridiculous for competitive wholesale in my market. And nowhere close to the mark-up I get on most of my supplies from this company. I should have had my outside rep quote it to me, and then have the inside guy convert the quote to an order. But I figured the inside guy would treat me fair and that didn't happen, and it irritated me because I know the games they play and where they try and gouge me.
I presume you don't try to gouge your customers, but rather give them fair pricing.
remodeler
I am with Joe on this 100%. It amazes me how many business men on this board (others too for that matter) will complain about how they have to fight to get an adequate mark up and then bitch about another business making money. Every business has to make money, and that includes adequate mark up on all items that go through the business.
Oh sure, you think 30% is high because its wholesale. Who says? Who made that rule? I charge 40% on all my material, is that too much?
Need the pump? Pay it. Don't like it? Go to another supplier. If you want me to change my normal operating proceedures and use my skills and contacts to bail you out of an emergency you can bet I charge more. So do they. DanT
Around here one of the biggest and 0oldest lumner yards gives the best price
but many of us know that counts will be wrong, #3 subed for #2, 4 ply for 5 ply, etc, so you have to chcek what they are bidding on paperwork, and they are counting on you to walk around and sort through the scaps for blocking, piecing togetehr sheeting, shoot them might as well send out a finger joint machine with the order.
Plus they send the whole order one trip if they can. follow up trips cost money
But they will be the cheepest and the fastest, thats what makes them a big old company.
And I have seen many homes with framing skipped in corneres or blocking etc because it was not there
we might use them occasionally but I have to speicfy , no subbing materils differnt then what is on the list, I add about 10% to materils numbers so we can cull at the job and add a few bucks for labor to cull and hall back materails. and if in their opinio n the culls are usable, its a 10% restocking charge
so for me.........if yo want quality and you have a quality framer and foreman
you need to consider a differnt supplier
The problem I see is that there is no apples to apples consistancy in the takeoff. Every framer has his methods that take more or less material to accomplish the same job. A supplier will spec OSB instead of plywood or forget backing or temporary bracing. They make assumptions like using drywall clips and single sill plates. My methods are similar to Framers. I break up the takeoff in phases like foundation subfloor,first floor... Each phase is a load from the supplier that I fax to the supplier. I use their tag to design my takeoff with the same headings so they can read it clearly in a format they are familiar with. Once the takeoff is done it is all in the computer. The lumber drops are easy to order without much more time.
The complete takeoff for the house is a huge job that takes a lot of time. Every hanger and sheet has to be specified and listed. My homes usually have a lot of busy trim detail that use up a lot of material so it is easy to underestimate. Once I have the takeoff I submit it to the supplier for a price. Their guy may take a month to get back with the price because the list is usually very long and detailed with lots of special connecters and engineered lumber. I can't imagine anyone at the yard who could do my takeoffs. If left up to them they often supply generic nails that jam my nailer or 18', 2x6 instead of 104.25" studs. To avoid confusion I specify brands (senco) and lengths (104.25"). For subcontractors like drywall or roofing, I let them do the takeoff even though I will estmate the material anyway.
If the framer complains about short loads then I would ask him to do the takeoff. I would compensate him of course and wouldn't be suprised if it took him a week (40 hours) to do a thorough job.
FWIW, The sales guy at this lumber yard forgot the garage! He included no studs for the garage in the take off.
-DP
FWIW, The sales guy at this lumber yard forgot the garage! He included no studs for the garage in the take off.
-DP
hmmmmm............. Seems like you just got your answer.
Where I am, none of the lumberyards will do takeoffs and bid lumber packages.
They don't care if you're building an outhouse or a 17,000 sf trophy camp. And there are four solid full-service competitors to choose from.
So, all we can do is get their unit prices, decide how we want to do business, do our own takeoffs and releases, order enough to not run short, and tell them to come and pick up the extras. Pickups and restocks are done for free without penalty.