The thread on the Milwaukee sale prompted me to do a little research on the power tool industry and who makes what. Soon, there will be just five major tool manufacturers:
Techtronic Industries – This is the company that owns Ryobi (+Ridgid) and is in the process of purchasing Milwaukee et al. from Atlas Copco of Sweden
Black & Decker – B&D will soon close on the purchase of Porter Cable, Delta and DeVilbiss from Pentair, a company in Minnesota, and obviously owns the B&D and DeWalt marques.
Robert Bosch Co. – A german company that purchased Skil a while back and also owns Dreml and Vermont American
Makita – A large Japanese corporation
Hitachi – A very large Japanese corporation
What do you all see in the future for power tools?
Will everything turn into disposable crap that lasts about two years like electronics?
Will tools one day be considered materials billed to a job rather than trated like assets?
“He who xxxxs nuns will later join the church.” –The Clash
Replies
Black & Decker - B&D will soon close on the purchase of Porter Cable, Delta and DeVilbiss from Pentair, a company in Minnesota, and obviously owns the B&D and DeWalt marques.
Very disappointed by this one. B&D has detroyed it's once good name with very low quality products of all types, including tools. If it brings down PC and Delta to its 'standards', that will be very sad. Less competition is bad news for innovation and quality in this case.
Most of Porter Cable's tools has gone downhill. Their Pneumatic line is crap, and the small hand held power tools are quickly degrading now. They only have a few good power tools left, the porta-plane and some of the big routers.
Delta has moved offshore, the unisaws arent what they used to be.
Overall its no big loss as the quality will remain fair to middlin.
Unfortunately in most corporations the motto is "Excellence in mediorocrity" It seems like most of the world has it's sights set on the short term, screw the future! Big red is going to decline, first you wont be able to get parts for your saw and then the quality will disappear. From my experience as a mechanical engineer working for various corporation I have seen both private ownership and corporations. Family based companies tend to look beyond the next quarter and towards the next generations. It also helps if the family is extremely proud of their product. Hopefully long term there will be someone stepping up to the plate producing industrial grade tools.
Not too long ago I was thinking of how much better power tools have gotten since i started 30 years ago.
It seems like we may have reached the peak and are starting down the other side.
STOP THAT!!!!
So it's yur fault...
You know how it is when you think 'bout the weather, not hearing from the out laws, the truck or a hundred other things...
Think about something and Murphy will immediately remind you that shouldn't have...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Murphy's been a close companion this week.
Gotta start drinking more to stop all these thoughts ( or is it voices)
Probably voices... Don't listen to them... We don't like the answers....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
I ask myself whether they really have gotten better than the ones of my early days.
There are more features added for sure - reciprocating actions, light weight and ergonomic design, cordless power and all that, but the quality isn't always there. In some ways it doesn't need to be because they know that they will keep adding features and we will want to buy uip to the new toys in a few years anyways. And there are things like - do we really want a palm sander that will last forever? It would weigh enough to kill our ligaments.
but here is one reason why consolidation just might help increase the quality of the top line brands - The industry is extremely competitive right now. Change the field from a dozen makers to four or five and there is less competition. That easers the margins on their behalf so they can focus on quality instead of shaving costs. sure, it'll cost more, but it might just be worth it.
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I think some tools have gotten better, some haven't.
Sometimes I get a little carried away with all the tool choices we have now that I kind of forget some of the old tools that lasted forever. I still have a 1/4" Milwaukee drill that won't die no matter what I do to it.
But there are definitely some tools that are better now then 25-30 years ago. Chop saws and cordless drills were non-existant when I started, but I wouldn't be without them now. My current cordless is much more powerful than my first.
I really hope you're right about consolidation- I see your point about focusing on quality. I'm just concerned that with less competition, we'll end up having fewer choices.
With the collective expertise and experience on this board, maybe we should provide the tool tests and subsequent reviews of our respective choices in tools. Kick in some tips to improve the design or function and become a force to be reckoned with for the tool manufacturers to cater to. A pro's endorsement would be a kick in the pants for the diy set... but no Bob Vilas please! Piffin, Sonny, center stage please.
Consider this: Tools are "made" overseas where labor is a fraction of ours, while "servicing" them is done here at our labor rates.
Tools have gone the say way as TVs, VCRs, watches, small appliances, much of our clothing, and much more. Unless you want to pay $300 instead of $150 for a decent cordless drill, $300 instead $100 for a 17" TV or $45 instead of $15 for a toaster, get used to the change. Remember, there's a flip side to everything.
Don't get me wrong, i appreciate not having to spend $300 on a new drill. It costs enough to tool up these days, doubling or tripling the price of tools would price some people out of the trades.
From a business standpoint, though, if tools degrade to the level that they last less than a year (professional, not DIY use), they could change from "overhead" to a status like "inventory".
Eventually for bids, we might have to have a category for tools. (i.e. - "bid includes 3 saws, 2 drills and a framing nailer") This might be difficult for clients to swallow at first. On the flipside, tools might become less tempting to thieves.
"He who xxxxs nuns will later join the church." -The Clash
Earl, so be it. I don't bother worrying about things I cannot control, adn this is one of them. If overhead had to be increased by 1% - 2% it will impact all of us including our competitors.
There are other areas the are dirrerent for eac of is. For example, I'l bet your medical premium cost you less them me at 62 and having had two heart attacks, two TIA, one stroke and a defiblorator inplanted last March 30.
My Blue Cross and Blue Shield just increased form $856 per month to $1,014 not counting the $147 per month I pay for my co-pay meds. That means that of my roughly $88/hr labor rate includes $10 to cover the above. It's $10 because I only work on repairs and small remodels about 24 hrs per week.
And by the way, from my labor rate you can assume correctly that I never worry about what my competitors are charging. As far as I'm concerned, based upon what I know, how I do it, how I accomodate my customers, constant good communications, and how I service them, I have no competitors. Those who others might consider my competitors dont realice that they exist in a completely different category from me, therefore, they are not really "my" competitors, but competitors of their own type.
Don't sweat it. Just charge a couple bucks more to cover the overhead "change."
The precident is already set.
Boeing, I was once told, begins the building af an aircraft by purchasing all the tools needed to build it. When the project is over (the aircraft is completed) the tools are sold off.
Urban legend? Maybe. If I need to replace my tools every project, then I'll price it in.Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada
Bingo!! Aaron, you got it right. In Michigan back in the mid to late 80s we built 5 houses, and three of them were Lindal Cedar Homes. Rather than have my guys burn up their own or company tools, I included in each estimate, a good quality circ. saw, a recip saw, 2-3 step ladders, blades, cords, bits, and a 1/2" drill. If they survived one house they were transferred to the next one, but that next one still included the same amount in the estimate.
The monies that was not used was given to the guys. To me that was the smart thing to do, and believe me, I wasn't too smart back then - and just a little smarter now.
After my 1st heart attack I learned not to concern myself with things I cannot control. After the two TIAs I learned to really control what I could. Too late - still had the 2nd heart attack, anyway.
Please take a tip from an old man who has been there and made almost every mistake possible. Worry, if you must, but only about your kids, health, wife and house, and screw what increases your overhead. Just increase it, and then control what you can control about your business, without ever relinguishing that control to your customers or venders.
It doesn't really matter whether we budget for one saw, one stepladder, and one wheelbarrow on each house, or if we budget five hundred toolars tool allowance on each house, or fifty cents perhour for each hour, or if we allow for 3% of gross to go to tools and equipment whatever pour real numbers are - that is what we have to figure for tools. Darn sure can't do the job without them.
if prices of tools went up, there would be fewer DIY or untrained 'handymen' buggering up the jobs so more work for pros to do. 'Course now, with so many ametures buggering up jobs, re-doing their goofs makes for plenty of work too. Guess its a wash either way.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hey, Piffin, take it easy on those handymen buggering up jobs. I make a lot of money correcting what they screw up. Wish more existed (-: In fact, maybe some of us should start subsidizing getting them started.
And here I though I was straightening out all these cheap shortcuts and low grade materials the pro's were using. :)
Farmer Dave - that's one for you! I forgot to mention, well - actually I was being tactful/loyal or whatever - I also repair work done by pros (?).
And I make a good side income repairing what the pros were too (insert word of your choice here) to do. From painting over oil with latex w/o doing nada to make sure it sticks to not using enough nails to hold the siding on. I turn 61 next week and I agree about finally learning to worry about only what is under your control (and I emphasize learning). Not easy but doable. And I repair what the HO did himself (such as not correcting the deck under roof repair to prevent water running under it, etc.).
Glad you mentioned that about the door. I have to redo one next week, and by a painter hired by my son who used latex semi-gloss over old chalking oil base. Get that here a lot.
BTW, using Liquid Sandpaper or another deglosser and adding Emula-Bond to a good quality latex and you're home free, ans still quicker than using a bonding primer. I use AllGrip by Scott Paint Co. (FL only) made to go over oil paint - think SW now has one like to also.
Nice to see I have another peer here.
In fact, anyelse herre who is basically a handyman but does professioal work, should never, ever use the term "handyman" on his cards, signs or any advertising, becasue in fact, you're not a "handyman." I hate that term being applied to me, so my cards say "Profession Execution of Small Projects." I tell people that comment about it that I am not a handyman, but a pro who happens to specialize in small projects.
I agree. a typical "handyman" seems to be the kind of guy my mother in Ocala hired to replace her back door. The neighborhood had changed enough that she felt the need for more security ( in addition to kepping the wheelgun loaded and handy) so she talked to this guy who has done several other small projects for her over time.
It took three weeks to get the door delivered, then a week later it took a day and ahalf to install it with a new jamb.
Meanwhile the security company has domne their rough in but can't finish 'till he does his thing.
So he holds the door closed for a week with a screw and block of wood while he gets a new lockset to install.
That's finally done, right?
Wrong.
He then had to take off and help a buddy move stuff to Texas for a week or so. Had the new lockset on the door but the casing is still off on the inside and the cardboard cover of the door is still on site.
So then he gets back from texas and calls to say that he is sick and will be another couple of days.
Then this hurricane hits...
I wonder how I would have turned out if Mom was as easy on us kids back t6hen as she is with handymen nowdays. next trip to Fla, I'll have to drie aND PACK MY TOOLS ALONG...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That story should have been made into a cartoon!
Sonny, are you saying to use emulsibond instead of primer? I am always looking for shortcuts that save time AND do a good job. I use emulsibond (or something similar all the time).
john
Yes. I first wipe the door, or whatever, with a deglosser like Liquid Sandpaper. But you have to be careful. some say to wait an hour or two before painting, and some say to wait 10 minutes. some say you have to paint within an hour after application while another one says you have several days.
But with either type, no primer is needed.The deglosser not only cleans the surface but also slightly softens the old finish for better adhesion of the new paint. The EB just adds to assurance of good adhesion so I always use it in these application.
I keep a roll of wax paper in my truck too and cut it into about 2" strips. Then when the latex paint is dry to touch, I tape it on the door jamb or door where the weather strips are so the paint will not stick to them.
The door I chastised my son about was a large remodel we did abut 4 years ago and the painter painted the ext. and int. with latex. It had the effect of vacuum wrapping a boat. Sure it covered the door but with no adhesion. When I installed a weather strip - the kind that's a white alum. strip with the gray rubber bubble attached, shut the door and left. The next day when I went to open the door the paint stuck to it in many areas (jamb too) and peeled right off the door. I took one “peel" about 8" x about 3" and showed it to Tom. I wasn't about to strip the entire door so I used my razor knife to slightly cut thru the paint, then peeled it off to those cuts, applied exterior plaster to feather edge the paint cut area, next day I slightly sanded them, primed with XIM (love that stuff) and two coats of the same latex
Then I cleaned the paint off those rubber bubbles, sprayed them with silicone and also sprayed the jambs and door where they contacted the bubbles and BINGO! - no more sticking.
The owner was in the process of selling the home to his in-laws and they were going to do some more remodeling including a new entry so what I did was temp. for 6 months to a year until Tom could get to their project.
Apparently no one, or at least very few contractors use what I created for us many years ago and call Conformance Control Standard Sheets - one for each trade. Besides having the subs (or employees) check off what's on them and sign them, they also serve how "I" wanted things done. For example. on electrical I did not want bare wires stuck in the back of a recep or switch, but to be wrapped around each provided screw, wires twisted BEFORE having a wire nut put on them - things like that. For painting, I dictated how to address raw wood like trim, vs. pre-primed wood, vs repainting over existing paint, be it trim, doors or walls/ceilings. Very rarely did I ever have problem with our staff or subs regarding these issues. In fact, those CSCS closed many sales for me because I also took them on sales calls and showed the potential customer the detail and extent we went to make sure each and every application was done - not cheaply - but correctly . Upon completion of the project, they got a copy of each signed sheet.
Sorry to ramble on but this stuff is my forte'.
Edited 9/6/2004 6:44 pm ET by Sonny Lykos
Thank you so much for this info. This gets copied to my "construction secrets" file. I just finished doing my new business cards and no, they do not say "handyman" on them...but jack of all trades probably belongs there.
Thanks again,
john
Farmer Dave beat me to the punch.
Handyman with quality, that's me. In fact, the only way I work. I loose more jobs to cheap "pros" and other poor quality handymen because I refuse to lower quality and my prices.
Oh yea - I don't quote by the hour, either.Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada
Guys, I started out as a handyman in Chicago, married, three kids at the time, and $300 in the bank when on the last day of my job as a retail manage. Oh, and a mortgage. Handyman Services was my company name. Moved to MI about 2 years later and still used the same company name. After about a year, I came home done day and told Barb: "If what I've seen here was done by "professionals" I'm no handyman, and changed the company to Lykos Home Improvement.
That's was when I was young and knew everything. Now I'm old and no nothing. I know nothing because I now know how little I really know, adn after 32 years in the business, I still would not disrespect my peers who are masters in their respective trades by saying that am one of them. I have mastered no single trade that would qualify me as a "professional" in any of them. But I can sell with the best, have always treated my staff with the best, and take 2nd place to know one as far as servicing our customers.
I figure being a handyman was like being an apprentice. As business got better I made a conscious decision to only hire those who were professional in their respective trade, like a carpenter, painter, etc. And when we had a carpentry job, I told that employee that as soon as we set our feet on that job, he was the boss and I was his helper. And I learned carpentry, because, since I was smart (-: [one smart time anyway] back then, I knew enough to throw my ego out the window and learn. Then I did the same with the painter, the concrete setter, the trim man, and so on and after a while had 26 such people in the field and the biggest remodeling company in three counties.
Being a handyman is one thing. Being a "wise" handyman is a better thing. Seems to me we have a few of the wise one's here, and good for you.
Piffin, you said what I was thinking. When I read that post comparing a $150 drill to a $300 drill it dawned on me that the cheaper drill would only bring bad and the more expensive drill may bring good.
What is bad and good.
Well, good is a drill that is made in the USA and allows for me to have a job because the guy who is making drills can afford an addition to his house as opposed to not being able to afford it or even worse, doing it by himself.
Bad means that I can't work because the construction labor market is crowded with hacks and their Harbor Freight tools doing inferior work and competing for the few jobs offered by the corporate pigs that run oversea operations.
grrrrrrr.
I don't buy Ryobi and B&D nor their affiliates. I guess my choices in tools has gotten smaller but I don't feel that I suffer for that. I will still buy bosch and Makita and probably start getting into higher end companies like fein, metabo, and festool. I realize that these are also foreign but buy buying high end, I am essentially using my money to prompt competitivness in quality. Not to mention if the USA ends up in the dumps I'd rather be a carpenter in europe than asia.
gk
Gabe, there's a flip side on your comments/business situation as well.
I'm one of those "hacks" who uses Ryobi tools among others, and who happens to do small repair jobs like handyman jobs and small remodels at a minimum of $89/hr adn up to $160/hr, and who also happens to guarantee his work for over 5 years, which is incidentally, longer then those "professional" peers of mine who use "good" tools and offer a standard of one year.
In addition, I own stock on come of those corporate pigs and have been doing very well in them for the last few years.
As I've stated on these forums in the past, instead of bitching about things of which we have no control, examine the flip side of these situations for opportunites in which to provide a substantial income for yourself.
Each of us have interpreted some things as lemons. But some of us, as the quip goes, made lemonade from those same lemons
Let me add one more thing, as with a piano, chisel, chop saw or artist's canvas, tubes of paint and brushes, it's teh person, not the tool that produces the result. That said, I've exceeded in many cased the workmanship of my "professional" peers with a lot less than my now retired 30 years old Skill worm drive circular say, and with less than $25 paint brushes, or $120 + sets of chisels.
Edited 9/6/2004 12:24 am ET by Sonny Lykos
"...i appreciate not having to spend $300 on a new drill. It costs enough to tool up these days, doubling or tripling the price of tools would price some people out of the trades."
I agree. If you want to look at how much really high quality tools cost, look at Lie-Nielson. Buy a good quality 22" jpinter plan from them and it's about $500 - More than I take home in a week.
Not many guys are gonna spend that kind of money for their hand tools. Can't imagine what power tools would cost if they were manufactured to the same standards.Personally, I think one of the greatest things about marriage is that as both husband and father, I can say anything I want to around the house. Of course, no one pays the least bit of attention.
Part of me worries that I will not be able to get parts or to replace many of the tools I love. The rational part says that the technology will bring even better tools. If I can't get parts, it is an excuse to buy something new.
I've been thinking about this since the other thread brought it up.
It seems to be an outgrowth of globalization that has effected other industries, some for good and some not so. Some favoring the business and some favoring the consumer also.
Look at banks. For ten years now every few months I hear of another merger or takeover.
Look at automobiles. GM owns a majort or controling interest in Isusu, Hyundai, Daiwuo, saturn, and has a co-operative developement pool with Toyota. GM controls Hummer
Ford owns Jaguar and I don't know who else.
Chrysler took over the Jeeps from AM and has now merged with Daimler Benz.
GM makes some good vehicles running up to the Caddy and Buick and some economy ones down to the Korean brach - and is helping the chinese start an auto industry for a piece of the action. Point being - the consolidation has not hurt the quality of the top of the line nameplates by dumbing them down. I am hoping for something similar with respect to the tools we use. Each ownership company can produce three lines of tool for users from the throwaway crowd on up to full force pros.
At least let me dreamand fantacize
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
What about Rockwell? The Clash rocked, I like "Clampdown".
Turtleboy