I’ve been taking classes at the local community college, and am thinking about going for a bachelors degree pretty soon. I was wondering if anybody has a Construction Management degree, and if it has served them well and is worthwhile. I’m thinking if would be good to have some education behind me in case I get hurt to the point of being unable to work. That said, as of now, I am much more interested in building/remodeling custom homes than commercial projects, which is what most CM degrees seem to focus on. I’m sure there is good info either way, but I’d like to know more residential if possible. Also, I’m interested in building “green,” but I haven’t seen any programs for that either. I know there is no substitute for on the job training, but a little gray matter can’t hurt. Any thoughts, recommendations, pointers?
Thanks
Replies
I've got a Bachelors in CM, and I've done both residential and commercial work. You're right that the material you'll cover will focus on commercial work, but the aspects of project management, scheduling, estimating, contracts, etc., are universal and will serve you wel in either side of the industry.
Regarding the "green" programs, I haven't seen any programs dedicated to it, other than the USGBC's "LEED Accredited Professional" certification (which I also have). You can get info on that exam/certification at http://www.usgbc.org
Best of luck,
Bob
After 20+ yrs. of remodeling, I too considered going academic. There's a little school about 40 miles from my home that offers 4-year degrees in Building Construction and Construction Management. Both curriculums have a strong emphasis on practical engineering applications as well as the "business" side of things.
When I interviewed with the head of the Building Construction dept., he told me that his grads were averaging 60K in entry level positions. Not bad for someone who's probably never earned a dime swinging a hammer. But hey, a degree from VA Tech carries a lot of weight in this part of the country.
Whatever decision you make, Good Luck.
he told me that his grads were averaging 60K in entry level positions.
The next important question to ask with that is "where?"
The U up the street used to offer a "generalist" B.S. in Construction Science (nee "Building Construction"); they've changed over both undergrad and M.S. programs to focus on CM.
Not that big a difference in post-graduation wages between the BS & MS; but both typically have a 300-800 mile relocation involved. The hiring companies also tend to be the top 10% of the huge construction firms, too. Guess where KBR really needs CMs? There's a scattering of CMs in smaller work around the state; but, most seem to be in that 'rut' of must-change-jobs-to-get-a-raise. That's good and bad.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Here in Jersey the grads with the BS degree in CM are starting in the $55-65k range depending on how good they are. Depending on how fast they learn and how well they do, they can be over $100k in less than 5 years easily.
Bob
alot of the big construction company around here give hugh bonuses if come in on time and under budget. I know one person that works for a road builder, five year with company and he was a millionaire. but if you screw up, you gone.
Me, I wonder how many superintendants that manager burned though.
Had an old timer describe the position of super as being the narrow place in the Hour Glass . Glass is filled with sh**, your either standing in it or it is falling you . "Hired to be Fired"
Any difference between the Bach. and a Masters?
Not really. We don't get too many guys with Masters in CM, but generally some of the big firms will give you a small bump if you go and get it. Generally once you're on board with a company though, everyone forgets about what degree you have- you just need it to get on board in the first place.
Bob
I'm currently going for a masters in construction management with a bachelors in arch.
I'm not entirely sure what I want to do with it or where I want to go after I graduate though.
Where did you get your B.Arch from? I went to Cooper.
University of Kansas...
Then decided I didn't want to be an Architect so I stuck with remodeling. Then found KU offered a Masters in Construction Management.
So after taking the two pre-req's they wanted I'm going back to school...
and really questioning my sanity at the same time
I considered the CM program at Pratt before going to Cooper. I went back to carpentry after school too for a stretch. I considered an MBA for awhile, now I'm thinking Theology ;-)
I thought about an MBA also but they seem to be about a dime a dozen these days, and it sounded like more work with out the benifit of a bigger pay off. I'm not knocking an MBA or saying its easy, just the schools seem to be churning them out.
From what I've heard from everyone I've talked too CM degrees are in demand so hopefully it will pay off well...
CM degrees do seem to be more popular for sure. A buddy of mine just got his Masters in Real Estate Development, another program I had considered. Both Columbia and NYU offer programs in R.E. Another friend (recent emigre from Russia) is just completeing an executive MBA from Kellog in Chicago. He flies up on Fridays and returns Sunday night. Tuition is like $150K for a 2 year program, but he already landed a very high paying job in the pharmaceutical industry.
well my CM masters will run around 20K....
I'm much happier with that number then 150K
I thought about an MBA also but they seem to be about a dime a dozen these days, and it sounded like more work with out the benifit of a bigger pay off. I'm not knocking an MBA or saying its easy, just the schools seem to be churning them out.
You are absolutely right about an MBA. It's a degree that's really valuable for those who need it to progress, and not worth much if not used. It really needs to be paired with an industry-specific degree and experience for most benefit.
The reason schools churn out a lot of MBAs is that it's typically quit generic and applicable to managment in just about any field.
Having said that, there are a number of MBAs with emphasis on various things. Instead of a MS in accounting a school may have MBA with accounting emphasis. There are probably some CM masters programs that are an MBA with CM emphasis.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
The school where you get an MBA means a lot. The school for an MBA is a lot more important than the school for an engineering degree (unless you want to go on to get an advanced engineering degree). A log of MBAs from the top 10 business schools can still pull down a bundle, although relatively speaking they are not doing as well as they did some years ago. The problem is that a "lower tier" schools started adding MBA programs that lots of basically "office tech" folks, and the ranks got pretty flooded.
The school where you get an MBA means a lot.
Most definitely, at least if you intend to go into a specific field, want to work at a specific company, or are in the middle of your class. Contacts and networking are key for those upper cases.
MBA's with an emphasis on small business are pretty similar across the board, unless small business means many $m/yr to you or it's a specific niche.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
If one were to look at very successful companies such as Dell and Microsoft they are often started and driven by people who do not have degrees. Often students are told a certain way to do things and they stop thinking out of the box. So much of the success of a company is not determined by degrees but temperature.
and really questioning my sanity at the same time
You're just starting to question it now? We've been questioning it for a few years now. Don't you remember when we all tried to talk you out of getting married?
Bob
yeah, so far the marriage thing is working out pretty good...
she could listen to me and do things my way a little more often though.
It's like women today don't know thier place or something...?
Edited 1/5/2007 7:11 pm ET by CAGIV
It's like women today don't know thier place or something...?
Yeah- something like that. Let her read that post, and you'll quickly find out what your place is............
Bob
bob ya think that place might be the doghouse?
you read my mind exactly.........
You're absolutely right about the relocation. VA Tech grads get recruited by the monsters like Fluor-Daniels, Brown, Root, & Kellog, Centex, etc. Of course, for a young 20-something relo might not be an issue.
When I interviewed with them, the dept. head did tell me that someone such as myself would have an advantage over the greenhorns with some companies based on my 2 decades of field work. However, I believe that window of opp. probably closes by the time one hits their late 40's.
if you get a true BM degree from an university and not a trade school. you can make a killing in the big construction companys, the company that run off profit only. A civil is good too. A company like Boh Brother or Brown and root, zachery, JL thomas. etc But then if you screw up you gone.
A few random thoughts about acquiring the skills to get started in residential design-build:
Business and project management skills are essential. And they are tedious to acquire. You will need to have Excel and QuickBooks skills in spades. Business managers need to be able to understand accounting in an almost intuitive way. Get comfortable with digging into accounting information to extract business management information.
The key to getting favorable pricing from subs is understanding how to present the scope of work. Learn to define scope of work in a way that gets the best price.
To supervise a trade it is essential to know something about that trade so learning every trade you can is essential. Watch and listen. (but be productive while doing this)
Job costing is the easy part, data mining that can feed critical information to guide estimating and price negotiation as well as strategic planning and client selection is what it's really all about.
Multi-tasking is essential. This is the industry of choice for the ADD afflicted. Always be prepared for something to stop your progress on a given task and have two or three things to fall back on. But be fanatical about completing all these partially finished projects (including the clean-up, that is part of the job too.)
Leadership is about willpower; learn how to make others happy to do what you want them to do. Complements are cheap. Given carefully they can be priceless.
When starting out the biggest hurdle is getting clients. Word of mouth is the only reliable way to build a business. So communication skills become your most important tools early on. This is face-to-face, on the phone, in writing. Study that book “How to win friends and influence people” it’s the best text for reaching people and winning them to your side.
Especially in the beginning you are more vulnerable to toxic clients. Not everybody is a good match for you. Many will try to trade on sob stories or offer fantastic opportunities. Beware of "professional victims." If a prospective customer mentions bad experience with a previous designer or builder odds are that you are next on that list. Don't try to "rescue" needy people, rather look to create exceptional value with honesty and integrity for people who are willing to pay for your services. It's all about creating value. It's not about saving the world.
In negotiation a transparent, guileless visage can be a powerful thing. Learn to be "like water" in negotiations. Listen with all you have, don't worry about what to say next. It is more important to listen carefully than to have a snappy comeback. If you listen well enough the answer will be obvious.
It is almost always less expensive to accept responsibility for a mistake than to try to avoid it. Don't be ashamed to over reach, if you are not making mistakes you are not pushing yourself. But look for the lesson in every mistake as well as in every success.
Publicity is not a dirty word. Promote yourself in order to maximize your opportunities. There is nothing wrong with having enough options on the table that you have to turn some of them away that you wish you had time to do.
Continuity within a design is good. The front of the house should share elements with the back. Use themes to carry this off. Materials can echo and change function, repeat an element with a different usage. The floor doesn't have to stop at the baseboard. Repeat interior elements in the landscape.
Gather all the budget information you can. Learn to design with a budget in mind without allowing the budget to sit on the creative design. Many things that look expensive are not, some that seem like they should be cheap are not...
In design-build you can start with custom decks and kitchen remodels and slowly work your way up to new homes and the like. So in this section of your life you need a few things:
Business management.
Accounting
Business computer skills
Project management, scheduling, proactive problem solving
Promotion, web design, contact maintenance. "Living your Brand"
Office management, taxes, insurance, overhead.
How to present an estimate, negotiate a contract, manage the project, get a Change order signed, present an invoice and manage cash flow.
Design
Drafting, pencil and CAD.
Working drawings, what to include and WHAT TO LEAVE OUT.
Presentation drawings, what to show to sell the job, both to the client and also to the bank appraiser.
Allowance management, keeping the clients from blowing your budget.
Estimating quantities as well as costs. Learn how to visualize the project as it goes forward so you can have the right tools and quantities of materials at hand as needed.
Leadership
You cannot do significant projects without a team. So you need to be able to build and manage the team.
How to communicate your vision efficiently to the team.
Negotiation
How to have the confidence to go forward when faced with conflict.
Estimating and invoicing,
How to present the deal so the customer feels like they got their moneys worth and are happy to pay you when the job is done.
Books to read:
Good to Great
The E-Myth re-visited
Home By Design
You don't mention your background in the post. It sounds like you might have had a little experience in the field. :-)
I kept a copy of that one, got a few thoughts from it. Thanks.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
SN.You should write a book. I really like the advice on pencil and CAD. Most designs I see are CAD and most of it is macros and imports,Chuck S
live, work, build, ...better with wood
Like anything in life what you put in you get back out. It is attitude that determines how many fold you get back. Starting out as a trimmer for a local succesfull home builder (100 homes a year) pay was great and I did very well, but I am one that needs more, I want to be just like the self made man that I was trimming for, but how to achieve that. I became what would be considered an office rat, like a mall rat.
After work I would hang out at the office with the supers, the secrataries, and the sales guys. No need to go home just to watch some stupid TV. Before you know it I was helping the supers do roofing take-offs, he would hand me 10 prints and take it from there, it was boring but hey, it was a free education. It turned out interesting to go on the jobs to see how many bundles of shingles were left over.
On my days off I would spend 1/2 a day driving around with the super and he started teaching me how to stake out building lots, so another task was given to me. I would watch the excavator dig, I would ask questions. Before you know it he would allow me to run his machines on his workers lunch breaks.
I would watch the plumbers and the electricians, also the hvac guys, and again ask questions. I would hang with the permit girl in the office, buy them coffee and donuts. I would learn all about Bank draws, and warranty work, and permits, and anything else that I wanted to know.
Before you know it I was dating the permit girl. Then I am moving in with her, then were starting our own company, now I got 2 houses started in the ground. Customer homes not specs. Yaeh maybe you can say that a little luck was involved being in the right place at the right time, but it mostly comes down to simply actually doing it. Not just reading about it in a text book and then taking a test. The other thing too is that you cannot be greedy. If you are greedy then it will not work, I gave up a ton of hours hanging around and doing free favors to learn what I know. I gave these 2 homeowners great prices on there houses to have them give me a chance.The way I look at it is they are paying me for an education, nice isn't it. What's it it for them? A nice house with built in equity the day they move in.
Mark
Bravo, good story. Best of luck to you.
Construction Management is heavily laden with business classes. It is about the business part of construction not the vocational part. If you are on a 100 million dollar project, construction management is not about using a hammer but about making sure the project is done on time and within budget.
Construction Management at the university is nothing like what most junior colleges teach. Most junior colleges emphasize the hands on aspect. Most universities emphasize the business. The students in CM could easily get a minor in business. Just because a school is well advertised and has a lot of students does not always mean much. Some of the best schools have teachers who have a lot of actual experience in the field. Some research universities have someone who does nothing except to prepare the students for going to the ASC competition. The students look good at the competitions but are often no better than anyone else once they are in the field. Often those programs are aimed at engineering.
Go to http://ascweb.org/ and you will see every school listed there. If you click on REGIONAL DIECTORY and then one of the particular regions you will see all the schools listed in that region. Be sure that the school you go to has a clear direction. One school I looked at were wanting faculty who experience in commercial construction but they were turning out students prepared for residential construction. Some schools are heavy into engineering while others are actually teaching construction management.
Some schools do not teach commercial at all. Some schools teach design build. Some teach residential. Some have a variety or programs.
Where you go to school will determine a lot of who will hire you. A lot of companies like students from the Midwest because of the work ethic. But the Midwest does not teach a number of the things that the west and east coasts encounter. Construction codes in CA are very different than anywhere else. Take a look at where the professors came from and what their work experience has been. Some have had very little and some have had a lot. Take a look and see if there is a balance on the faculty. Many are heavy with engineers or construction managers. One university I visited yesterday had a good balance of architects, engineers, and construction managers on their faculty. Some programs are very rigorous while others have very little rigor. Find out the size of the classes and the emphasis of the program. Just because they may say they do something, does not mean they do. I took a look at a program in CA which stated that they prepare students for residential while most of their faculty had commercial experience with engineering degrees. All of the faculty except one in that program were from out of state and had never worked there.
Yea, think seriously about getting into a real program. I suggest you look a Cal State San Luis Obispo, on the coast down by LA. They have a full Construction Management program there that will get you employed. The programs at Junior College won't get you much except maybe if you're dad owns the company. Once you get the degree, if you want to build do it for a couple of years to get the experience then go into comercial to support your hobby of building custom homes. Do that for a couple more years then, if you think you can make a go of it, do it full time on your own.
If you get the BA degree, forget the labor part and go into management directly.
I'm a huge fan of bs/ba and higher degrees, but don't be fooled that the degree will be the road to easy street, especially in residential construction.
Get the degree if you enjoy learning new stuff. Get the degree for the value of broad education. Get the degree for the personal satisfaction of achieving the goal, but don't get the degree if all you want is to have a small crew and build a few houses a year.
Residential construction success is based more on experience and figuring out how the hoops are jumped through than formal education, especially a 4-year degree. If you were to step off a plane with a current diploma and $5, about all it would buy is a cup of coffee. Clients don't hire residential contractors based on a college degree.
If you need to learn the building side, start working for the best builder you can find. If you need to learn about accounting take a basic class and talk to a good accountant to get you set up with a good basic system. Same for all other aspects of running a business. Learn what you need, not a lot of theory and background crapola.
As for having something to fall back on that is less physical, don't think for a minute that having a largely unused degree will be as valuable to employers years down the road. It's valuable if used and quickly depreciating if not.
An architecture degree makes much more sense--the building side you should learn on the job, and the business side should be learned in short specific classes.
If it sounds like I'm anti-university, nothing could be farther from the truth. A 4-year degree will change your life for the better, but it is not a short cut, or even a complete roadmap, to successful residential building.
What I've detailed above is exactly what I've recommended to close friends and relatives in your position.
Personally, I've spent a number of years getting a bs and a handful more on a graduate degree working closely with a number of faculty members. The single biggest mistake I've seen students make is confusing knowledge with skills and ability (KSA's). The three are quite distinct.
Best of luck! Get the 4-year degree. Work with the best builders and carpenters while you do it. Don't confuse the KSA's.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Take a look at http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos005.htm#earnings
I've been following this thread with avid interest.
I also considered a C.M. degree (A.A.), but when I talked with a couple project managers i knew, they said the job mostly entails kickin' someones arse- yelling at carpenters, electricians and others- all about getting the work done on time and saving a buck or two.
Not to discourage you, I think any education is worthwhile, whether it comes from the field or the classroom. But for me, i'm looking into a BA in Industrial Design and visiting a school in NC in two weeks. I wonder if anyone on this board has this kind of backround? and if it's useful?
I know it's not residential/commercial design but this forum attracts those of many different talents.
my two cents on the lower level, community /trade school etc. Talking about the civil engineering techology, which also there are some contruction technology too. Alot of these are not transferable to four year degrees. alot of these degrees are geared at just keeping the teacher in a job and make money for the school. Its like having a two year degree on how to sweep a floor.But a true four year accredited degree is money in the bank
If they're promoting "kicking someone's arse" and "yelling at the carpenters" as proper project management, you're talking to the wrong people to be taking advice on your future from. They'll be stuck in the same position for the rest of their lives if they manage that way, and will end up dead of stress-induced heart attacks eventually.
Bob
Yeah, come take a job in the stress-free laid back environment of estimating. LOL
83537.23 in reply to 83537.22
<< I considered the CM program at Pratt before going to Cooper. I went back to carpentry after school too for a stretch. I considered an MBA for awhile, now I'm thinking Theology ;-) >>My son is a first year Architecture student at NYIT and is considering changing his major to CM and transferring to Pratt. What do you think of Pratt's CM program; was there something you didn't like about it?<< Yeah, come take a job in the stress-free laid back environment of estimating. LOL >>BTW, I have a good friend who's an estimator for Tishman. Do you know anyone there? (He helped talk my son into CM instead of Architecture - he says there's no money in Arch and the work is boring)JerryEdited 1/7/2007 11:44 pm ET by Jerry18Edited 1/7/2007 11:46 pm ET by Jerry18Edited 1/7/2007 11:49 pm ET by Jerry18
Edited 1/7/2007 11:50 pm ET by Jerry18
I was looking at Pratt's program almost 20 years ago, so I'm not sure how it is now though I do know someone who is just graduating and seemed happy with it. As far as the Arch degree, I would probably encourage him to continue it. It's still a solid background regardless if he wants to pursue architecture as a profession. As far as fulfilling careers, many an estimator count beans for a living, where architects can unleash their creativity. On the other hand some PM's make buildings come out of the ground, where an architect can be a glorified draftsman for years. I guess it depends on the individual.One of my professors at Arch school was a senior VP at Tishman, but I believe he has since moved on.
Thanks for the advice. He's working as a draftsman since high school and sits next to licensed Archs doing the same work and it has discouraged him. He enjoys what he's doing now but that's not what he wants from Architecture. I agree though that even if you don't sit for the license it's a good background to have, even as a CM. I was hoping he would get his b.Arch, then master in CM, but he thinks he would be better prepared as a CM if he concentrates in that field now. -tough choiceJerry
maybe my friend's view is skewed...
In your opinion, project management is more about business aspects, estimating and strategy, than pure cost containment?
Cost containment starts with having a proper budget and schedule to begin with, and continues with properly buying the scope of work with your subs. If you've got to yell and scream at your subs and beat them to death to get costs under control and keep them on schedule, you haven't done a good enough job on the upfronts.
I've found that there's plenty of "yeller screamers" out there who can somehow manage to get the job done, but they destroy subs in the process and eventually end up with bad reps. And as someone else stated already, they don't last very long (if at all) with the better firms.
Bob
Those people you talked with would not last very long in good companies. Good companies do not operate with poor contractors or poor help.