*
OK, I am going to jump off in the deep end here and see if there is any interest in continuing the discussion on communities and community design from the “Big New House Insanity” thread.
I will offer a few definitions to get things started.
New Urbanism – the design model that is designed to mimic how towns used to work. Common precepts: walking friendly, everything with 5 – 7 minutes walk; mixed uses, apartments over shops, civic next to commercial; dependencies (garages, granny apts, studios) behind houses; small lots and alleys; unified design guidelines, usually drawing on local vernacular or regional styles. Sometimes called neo-traditional.
Sustainable Communities – communities that are designed to be as environmentally sensitive (and culturally/socially sensitive) as possible. Often designed with water and energy conservation as a priority. May include new urbanist principles of pedestrian friendly, mixed uses, mixed incomes. May set aside large areas for wildlife or wetlands, or use alternative energy sources, community gardens, etc.
Intentional Communities – this would include co-housing, some retirement developments, groups of people who want to build together for social, religious, cultural reasons. (Yes, this includes communes – which are still around and doing some fine work, thank you.)
Subdivision/tract – a group of houses built or laid out by one developer. Almost always single use, i.e. single family housing or duplexes and apartments.
Some questions to consider might be:
Are planned communities any different than subdivisions or tracts? What are the benchmarks to distinguish New Urbanism, Sustainable Communities, Intentional Communities from tracts? Are all tracts bad? What about the ones that were tracts 40 years ago and are now neighborhoods? How might these movements affect builders and how can builders affect the communities/tracts they build? (Think beyond the obvious here)
What, if you were just made Dictator of the Universe, would you like to see and build?
Replies
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Thank God for but one elusive "Dictator of the Universe"....
Still up on the Mountain.
J
*Lisa,You, like all of us, will learn one thing well in your qwest for knowledge and ultimate truths...The more you think you know, the more you'll realise that you know nothing...Ask me about my "refrigerator theories" explaining the unseen forces of nature, or as a little leap into the workings of all, pick up a copy of "The Web Of Life" by Fritjof Capra...Then we can talk refrigerators and community if you like.Near the Raging Stream,JWhat does......something/infinity=???....not much.
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what about a guy like me , i don't want to live in town or on a tract. dictator of the universe? i'd lay off work for a week or so till the wife found out!
jack your right at 20 i knew it all as the years go by i am finding out how little i know and how much i have to learn. got to go more later
*I'll be darned. Someone else who reads Capra. This is indeen an electic group.
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God help me. I am interested in this.
JonC
*Realising how little you know is only the beginning. The next step is to realise that one cannot know everything, and from there, figure out exactly what is important for you to know and then to persue the knowledge. Some things in life must be accepted as given or we waste too much time on trivia. For example, on you refigerator theories: I, like most others, accept that the light goes out when the door is shut; others must empty the fridge and climb in to find out for themselves.How cold was it in the fridge?
*I'd like to see things urban remain just the same as they have been for the last hundred years. Houses perched atop one another, subdivisions without a tree to be found, with everyone on display if they are out of doors. Cookie cutter houses with nothing more than a flipped floorplan for creativity. Hundred dollar mantles and 20 cent trim. This is job security for all of us!(;-)
*Simon,The not so readily observable forces of nature....How would an alian quickly figure out the reason for the existence of one or so refrigerators in each of our kitchens...and why are they there by themselves...not five or six....and what about at Sears, where they are all lined up in a big flock....Remember, you're not a human and you're not at our worlds level...say your looking in, like we look into the workings at the sub-atomic level and wonder how gravity works....the unseen forces and relationships are easy to figure, if the observer can observe from a plane close enough to "catch the little people" forces, sneaking into the kitchen, for a "midnight snack."...Would the alians then know this object's total relationship, like you and I do... as the actual "forces of life" bringing refrigerators, into existence?...On the planet, barely...JNot about the light.
*I always wanted to crawl in the microwave!
*Can I turn you on???J
*Lisa, how about the quality vs. quanity issue tossed in for flavoring? The obverse of Lawrence's two-headed coin. What is of greater societal value? A 4000 sf house for four, with 49 cent/foot trim, or a 2000 sf house with real details? Which is more "responsible" the 4000 sf'er with no depletion of exotic/hardwood forestry, or the smaller 2000 sf'er with all the goodies? (It's cheating if you answer "use reclaimed old-growth lumber"... I've got that one already! Get your own.)
*Ac/Dc in NYS
*Y'all shouldn't eat the brown acid, man.
*Wow Jack. Does all this go on in your head while yur framing?Blue
*Lisa, if they sell, they are good!Blue
*Mark Twain said it best - "When I was 18, I thought my father was the dumbest man in the world. By the time I was 21, I was surprised at how much the old man had learned in three years."
*
Very Good George, have a cookie. This is one of the questions that people interested in sustainability, social justice, and just plain craftsmanship consider. Perhaps the rest of us should too. We keep saying, as a society, that we want quality, but we keep buying garbage. Why? Madison Avenue, apathy, ignorance, greed, laziness? I don't know.
I shudder at the thought of having a 4,000 sf house. I know who would end up cleaning it, and I have better things to do with my time.
How about a smaller house (unless you have a gazillion kids or a teenager or run a home for wayward carpenters) loaded with details that don't deplete? Do all details have to be exotic or hardwood? What about carved stone, intricate plaster, detailed mosaics? I'll also throw in new (to the US) materials like bamboo (so sustainable its disgusting) and hemp, local 'trash' species like (around here) cottonwood and osage, finely worked metal (recycled of course).
Of course the choice should be quality over sheer quantity. The question is what do we do when sheer quantity is seen as quality, sometimes the ONLY kind of quality.
Keep it coming, its starting to get good.
*Lisa (and others),Believe it or not, there's a small woodworking shop here in Eastern Montana that produces cottonwood trim and flooring. The owner claims to have figured out how to control the warping and twisting through aging/drying and selective cutting/milling. Some of the trim I've seen looks pretty good. Likewise, I have a 120 year old homestead/cabin on my property; the sod roof fell in long ago, but the cottonwood log walls are still intact. A few years ago a large logging conglomerate was looking into harvesting cottonwoods along the Yellowstone River and its tributaries for use as pulp. I was/am HIGHLY opposed to the idea if it means the usual clear cutting, decimation of habitat, damage to the waterways and wetlands, etc. I do think that the idea may have been viable though if it weren't so harsh on the environment. (I AM NOT A TREE HUGGER- I am realistic though!). As for planned developments/subdivisions... Is there a subdivision or developmant that isn't planned? They've all been layed out by someone or some group. Many investors, developers, planners, architects, contractors/builders have put their two cents into the process. As for the happy little communities in Florida and other places I think they are unrealistic and superficial (Just like in the Truman Show). I spent a lot of time at Sea Ranch in Northern California as a kid/teen. The whole place is a time share community, with few/some full time residents. We would spend our week or two each year enjoying the wild floor plans and scenic views between diving for abalone in the day and my dorky step-dad playing tennis with the other "resident visitor" lawyers and doctors. The Homes were very well planned to minimize the impact of neighbors. They are spaced well apart from one another, views are regulated by size and placement of windows, access within the development is limited by pre-set paths and drives. The truth is that Sea Ranch is too far from any city to be a viable place to live and WORK! Who's going to drive an hour and a half to San Francisco in the fog and mud to get to work every day? The place is a "tourist destination" as much as Disneyland. Nearby in the small towns a colony of yuppie hippies work as caretakers and maids to keep the place looking nice, but can they afford Sea Ranch housing? I don't think so.I have another issue to bring up. I live in Eastern Montana, for those of you who have driven through, thanks. Thanks for not staying. Actually, the region could use a strong injection of transplants to keep the economy going. While I've lived here there has been a slow, but steady, decrease in population. Family farms are sold to a neighbor. The neighbor uses a bigger tractor or combine and less people to produce more grain. Farms are corporate entities. These farms in turn are sold to wealthy out of state buyers that use the property as a game preserve during hunting season. They don't care about the farming and ranching, they want to shoot things (I do, too!). They hire architects to design and build new 5000 s.f. ranch houses that look like they are 100 years old and added on to five time. But they've got a whirlpool, radiant floor heat, three car garages, 600 s.f. gourmet kitchens, and all the latest in home theater. There's a theory called the "Big Open" that says the midwest, agricultural land will no longer be needed for food, that the buffalo and elk will return to the prairie, that the whole area will become a nature preserve and destination for metropolitan livers to visit. I can watch it happening in real time, right here in Eastern Montana. We don't have mountains, or clear, trout filled streams, or pine trees. There is a great deal of "open" space. If anyone out there would like to develop a planned community or a destination town please come here and leave your money after you decide that 102 degrees is to hot in the summer and -45 is too cold in the winter. Did I mention that we had a 100 degree temperature change in 24 hours not too long ago?My train of thought isn't in developments & planned communities today. I'm designing an A&W restaurant today.....root beer would be good!
*Very Good George, have a cookie. This is one of the questions that people interested in sustainability, social justice, and just plain craftsmanship consider. Perhaps the rest of us should too. We keep saying, as a society, that we want quality, but we keep buying garbage. Why? Madison Avenue, apathy, ignorance, greed, laziness? I don't know. I shudder at the thought of having a 4,000 sf house. I know who would end up cleaning it, and I have better things to do with my time. How about a smaller house (unless you have a gazillion kids or a teenager or run a home for wayward carpenters) loaded with details that don't deplete? Do all details have to be exotic or hardwood? What about carved stone, intricate plaster, detailed mosaics? I'll also throw in new (to the US) materials like bamboo (so sustainable its disgusting) and hemp, local 'trash' species like (around here) cottonwood and osage, finely worked metal (recycled of course).Of course the choice should be quality over sheer quantity. The question is what do we do when sheer quantity is seen as quality, sometimes the ONLY kind of quality.Keep it coming, its starting to get good.
*
I love the idea of the New Urbanism and Sustainable Communities. I enjoy being in areas like that, and I go nuts being in the tracts/subdivisions.
I used to think it was the lack of trees in the new subdivisions that made them so unattractive, and in some cases mature trees have helped. But the real problem is the car.
Not really the car per se, but building and scaling everything to accomodate the car (and the moving van!). Build on smaller lots, put in sidewalks, and throw in some mixed use (especially a corner grocer/c store).
But the fundamental laws of the universe are not the laws of physics, they are the laws of economics. Very little is going to get built if people are not going to pay for it.
What really drives me nuts is people who get a lot of land and turn it all into lawn! What a complete waste of resources.
On the other hand I live on one acre out in the country. But I am trying to eliminate lawn as fast as I can afford. I certainly do not waste time and money watering or fertilizing it.
Chad...Yes, I would think that by definition, all subdivisions and developments are planned. But that does not mean all communities are. The stretch of road I live on has filled up with enough homes for the county to lower the speed limit. But no one would mistake this stretch with anything planned.
So, yes, please give me quality over quantity, but I know that for the rest of the country, appearances are everything.
Rich Beckman
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AJ,
I will be the first to admit I don't know an awful lot, especially to my 4 year old! I would not presume to think that I am an authority on anything, but I will say that I am interested in just about everything. From Stephen Hawking to the best 47 ways to preserve summer tomatoes.
I am not looking for ultimate truths, just some exploration of the (slightly) bigger picture than single houses. I find the ways that humans devise to house themselves, especially as a group or groups, to be very interesting. What part is adaption to environment, what part to culture, and what is the catalyst for change in the group (for it sure isn't logic)?
I'll admit to an ignorance of Capra (other than Frank), but I've been around the block with Heinlein, Spider, Niven, and the rest. Bring your aliens by anytime, I'll introduce them to mine. And if aliens find refrigerators perplexing, what must they think of slot machines?
Enjoy your raging stream, I suggest some Burns or Frost as appropriate accompanyment.
Lisa
Would the ocean be deeper if there weren't any sponges?
*
Sign me blue
*The sponges were ovewhelmed long, long ago...Just another bag o bones,J
*Jack;Once the little buggers (aliens) figure out how much ice cold beer one fridge will hold, they, like the rest of us, will cease to wonder at the reason for a refigerator's existence. Having discovered cold beer, the only time they will question the refrigerator at all, like us, is when it breaks down. That is when we really discover its "raison d'etre".Of course this assumes they will like beer more than eating us little people. If not, even then they may keep refrigerators just to keep the human "herds" happy until they are ready for their next snack. As we have all been told, " the best milk comes from contented cows".Simongone to check the refrigerator, I need some contentment!
*Lisa: tracts are stupid 'cause they make me stupid. I have known for sometime that I don't know anything. Going towards the light.
*Lisa:From my experience in selling houses, the average home buyer is looking for the builder who will give them the biggest house for the least amount of money. Only on the surface are they concerned with quality. So, if you can use the cottonwood and bamboo etc. and sell them a bigger house than your competitor for less money, they will buy. "If you build it, they will come." And to a large extent, it doesn't matter where the hell you build it, as long as it appears to have "prestige" - it only has to appear to have pretige!You will note that I said "average" home buyer. There are still some discerning buyers out there and they are the ones that provide discerning builders with their fun.Simonbetter is better, not bigger.
*One content human ready for the plate I'd say...Near the stream,J
*My only brush with new urbanism or whatever it was, was Northwest Landing at DuPont WA a couple years back. My initial interest was sparked by a flyer about Craftsman styled homes. By the time I saw them they were no longer calling them Craftsman but neo-traditional something or other.Basically, they had brought in 2 major employers, State Farm and Intel, then built a town to house the workers. Reminicient in some ways of the old company mill towns here in OR.The inspiration for my "How many sq' for 1.7 kids" post came from my facination with Centex's market research at DuPont. As one of the posters on that thread observed, the place was kind of "spooky". More like a movie set than a town. Supposedly designed to be kid friendly for young familys with a green space every couple of blocks. But you never saw any kids, they're all in day care. I doubt you'll ever see groups of kids playing unsupervised there. They'd seem out of place. My guess is that when the 20-somethings wake up and realize they've been packaged, they'll leave and all those low maintainence, small yard and no yard houses will turn into a retirement community. In fact, I think they've already started looking at that market. I'm curious as to what the place will be like in 20 years? JonC
*LisaI think you make the mistake that many others do when they assume that theiri love/passionfor something means that others i mustshare it. Whether it's 'fine' food, or wine or 'beautiful' architecture, or 'awe inspiring' craftsmanship or 'artistic' detailing, those that share your passion will, in the greater scheme of things, be few indeed.I don't mean to soundi oh so superior,but the greatunwashedhorde out there are in the majority and they are happy with what they know. . . or know not what they are missing. For most people a house is a flop, a car is transportation, food is fuel and sitcoms are art. The only reason they have for 'trading up' is for prestige, not quality per se. And the reason why the Price Club (or whatever it's called stateside) is so popular is that most people also like to belong toi clubs and what better club than a subdivision, or planned community, where they can have ai real sense of belonging.In the past I frequently had cause to ask myself i "is it me or them that's the alien"until I finally realised that it was obviously me, there's waaay too(o) many of them!!!Like ChadS above I now live in a place that many city dwellers pass through. . .even though it would help the local economy, I don't want them to stay.-Patrick
*I'm not an a--hole so don't pound on me. Two of several problems, 1) I don't think people much like each other, and I don't mean race. 2) This is a nobal idea and I want such a walk to neighborhood, but most people still need cars to get to work. This removes them from the neighborhood and since they have spent a fortune on their house why shouldn't they save $.20 per item on drycleaning if it is on the way home. I don't have any answers to the question you pose except that I've watched two old established hardware stores go down recently. Why? because of the mega home store. I personally find it charming to use a local guy for services or goods even though he is slightly higher in price than the local Wal-Mart. I do it all the time with suppliers and I would be happy to have a town square type shopping area, but this is not realistic. How many towns have been ruined by Wal-Mart? You could build the best self contained community you want and it would only take the promise of a few % savings to kill that.I've often thought about a community near me that has tried this and has found marginal sucess. I think that such an area needs to first go with a Community center that shows second run movies for a buck or two, (bring your own popcorn) and uses such a gathering place to promote community. From movies to childrens plays to I don't need to leave for things other than work.I ramble on, but I really question whether such things can suceed with out a fairly homogeneous population (be it class or race or creed) and with cars it is easy to travel to what you need. I live in a neighborhood of 400 houses (300 townhouses) the sad thing is the layout of the community. The fronts of home are seperated by a parking lot and the backs where you seek privacy are jambed next to eachother. This to me is completely backwards. The other way around would add much to community. In my neighborhood the Parks/Play areas are spread around. There is no central area for meeting. As an aside, want to get to know a neighborhood, get a dog. Once I got mine I realized how powerful the secret underground of dog walkers was. We knew everything.
*No pounding needed JD, good post. Must be the mutt-friendly vibes. When the cotter-pin falls out of the accelerator linkage, and the car won't go... Wally-World is too far to walk. Now who would have spent $3.00 for a 29 cent item at the local hardware store? Try finding Brown two-wire (ungrounded) outlets at WalMart... nah, nevermind. It'll be faster to rewire the whole house. (Town and Country Hardware had them though!)
*George. . . let me see if I got this right . . . you guys still use Kraft backed f/g., frame with dripping wet lumber, and use two wired(ungrounded) outlets. . . I must be dreaming. . .Somebody finally towed the USA out to sea and skuttled it and you guys are all actually living and working(?) in Mexico.
*Personal question. Do many of you have friends? Do you get together at eachothers' homes for dinner? Do you play cards, bowl, etc.? In my IA neighborhood, they do play golf - some to enjoy it, many to network. My Rotary Club became a network (that is the principle reason women wanted in, and the place did go down hill from that point on), Before any of the gals get on me, my daughter is going to be a lawyer and maybe a part-time webmaster - see other thread . My neighborhood in WI is going down hill for some of the same reasons. My closest neighbor to the north drinks too much and crashes her walker (Charlene is a bit old), but she is colorful. The new neighbors are rich, the houses big, but when I walk, the dining room tables are never in use. Don't know why life is this way.Dennis
*Patrick, the real challenge is to:1) Get the Kraft, without the Mac and Cheese. (respects to BNL)2) Get the dripping wet lumber to stop sprouting new growth long enough to clad it with Homasote.3) Find Knob and Tube wiring supplies for the two wire outlets.
*This is a posting that is way beyond my typing ability. Post Docorate Dissertations have tackled this and gone nowhere, but then again they have been nowhere so to speak. I've been to small european towns that some how supported several top notch butcher shops and several bakeries that would rival Dean and Deluca.I wish things were different in some ways, but this country is profoundly different from those countries. I think that social engineering to force a life style or more acceptable way of living is very dangerous. As I say this my wife and I long to move closer in to older neighborhoods where we can walk to the corner and shop. Washington, D.C. is full of neighborhoods based on the concept that a commercial district should be within a few block walk. But that was because we didn't have cars to get us around easier. Even with cars and malls who's not to say that there is not value is drivig to the mall and walking for several hours while shopping. This thread is much like those problems posed by philosophers, in that there is no right answer only theries that need to be dicussed.
*
Wow guys, this is great! In a lot of ways I think this kind of discussion is even better than the PhD dissertations (thats why they are called Piled higher and Deeper) as we are out there in it so to speak.
I have to go home and care for a kid with the sniffles today so I will be back tomorrow. Keep it up!
Lisa
*
The ocean wouldn't be as deep, if you took out all the sponges and wrung them out in the lakes. If it wern't for the locks in the Panama canal would all the water in the Atlantic run into the Pacific or vice versa?
*Think about how much fun you could have staying home with a sick kid, if you had a home computer.
*I've got it all!! My husband and I found the town that we wanted to move to, then researched the area thoroughly. By this I mean, driving up and down streets looking for where the families were, watching for kids outside, parents outside with their kids, we even counted basketball and hockey nets to see where the highest concentration of families were. I checked the schools to see how active the parent councils were, how many parents volunteered, the police told me where the active neighborhood watches and neighborhood associations were,( as well where the highest and lowest break-in areas were). Then we found the house of our dreams in a perfectly "planned" community- parks, rec center,shopping (stores where the salespeople know your name),golfing, and lots of untouchable creek and conservation land!! Our kids can walk out the backdoor and build forts in the woods, fish in the stream, catch frogs , whatever. City living at the front, country living at the back.We researched the builder,talked to many other homeowners and had a detailed house inspection done (and after 2 years, have not had any surprises). The house is large, to impress no one else but ourselves, and "every" inch of the 3400 sq. ft (not including the basement) is used- even the dining and living rooms!So what I'm saying is - You can have your cake and eat it too-if you like cake, that is. There are areas that are mixtures of new urbanism, planned and sustainable communities. And the icing on the cake, is the strong, well built homes. It's just a challenge to find these places! But with a little luck and a lot of perserverance, it can be done!Happily,Beatrix
*Beatrix,I bet your name alone made you find this dream life neghborhood...Take this as a good thing said if would.Near the stream, J
*Jack,I have the stream too!!
*Praise to Lisa for posing the questions to these "poor huddled masses".(Not many Architects would) Thanks. As for aesthetics I would pose the question to Lisa. Is tasteful judgment based in the womb or learned. Secondly I would suggest that someone could potentially be more contented living in a slum than another in a beautiful planned community. Contentment is based in the mindset of the subject. I personally dislike the idea of living in a planned community where the people, houses and landscaping is dictated by others. Many people who posses a more rigid attraction to uniformity may be very unhappy indeed, to live next to a home that looks different than theirs. No disrespect intended and I hesitate before mentioning this but here goes. A German fellow named Adolph once planned the,"ultimate community". He designed his ideal State and was going to dictate many things from architecture to careers to construction materials and techniques. I’ve seen many of his designs and they certainly are aesthetically pleasing. Amazing to me how someone so obviously disturbed can have design talent. Food for thought. It is my personal opinion that the entire idea of planned communities will change dramatically over the coming decade. This version seems to be old already. My vision of a perfect planned community is to leave existing trees and brush between the irregularly shaped and sized lots separating the varying sizes and styles of houses that suit the varying tastes, whether they are reliant on other's opinions or formed by the viewer.
*In the past ten years, i have lived in two old urban neighborhoods, one "planned community' (a high tech oriented suburb town), and I now live in a fairly rural area fifteen minutes outside of town.There was a vitality about the two older neighborhoods that the planned community could never match .It was okay for small children, but as they grew up, they grew up twisted and bored and sort of frightening. I saw the same thing in other 'planned' communities on the outskirts of the city. I am not saying these were particularly WELL planned communities, but i think they are typical, and you could never get me to move back to one. On another tangent, where does affordable housing come in? Is it a necessary part of the project that these 'ideal' communities, the ones in which enough imagination and resources are committed, will be created for the sole benefit of the wealthy?I've never seen a house in one of the better ones I could even think about being able to afford .I'm sure we have all seen today's trendy (and underbuilt and overregulated) developments turn into tommorrows slums. Anyway, I don't have any answers, except a gut feeling that smaller is better.
*Is it the planned community that warps the children i ("It was okay for small children, but as they grew up, they grew up twisted and bored and sort of frightening.")or is it that they are thei productof the type of 'parents' who seek out planned communities to live in? Parents like these might produce this type of child no matter where they might live, while those that would seek out an older neighbourhood might naturally contribute to itsi "vitality".At this stage in my life, who and what I am, philosphically speaking, doesn't change according to my immediate enviornment, except of course in extreme scenarios such as life or death situations. And I don't think a renaissance ini housing enviornmentswill have a correspondingly uplifting effect on those that you might think need it the most.
*Mike . . . uh, before the locks there wasn't a connecting waterway. . . something about water not flowing uphill. . . except in the case of i ice dams, but you're new to that phenomena so you've no excuse. . . back to geography class, and double slaps at the fest!!!
*For some strange reason I never read this thread before this evening. Truely insightful comments.I wonder what the mix of House as Symbol of Competitive Success, Desire to be Special and Part of a Special Group and the essential loneliness of many lives today does to home selection?
*Out here, they take farmer's fields, that dont have a tree in 80 acres, plant subdivisions, and five years later there are 1000 trees growing splendidly, along side numerous bushes ans shrubbery.Blue
*Beatrix; If I had written what you so elegantly did, I might have added that being white, born to the middle class, educated, not too ugly or fat, married to the same and lucky in matters of income doesn't hurt either. If you are or ever were a struggling minority, I'll owe you one.
*Is it just me, or has someone else wondered why "affordable housing" is even needed? I mean, this is a relatively new concept, yes? What socio-economic conditions brought this into being?I don't believe this is one end result of suburban pressures/influences. This is not a result of our having moved away from the farm.
*The fact that they are paving productive farm fields( and they've done that to millions of acres of prime soil in south western Ontario as well) and using them for housing, instead of maintaining the farms and putting the housing on marginal land is what needs to screamed about!!! Who the f**k cares about how nice there little trees and shrubies look!!! Are they gonna eat them next winter???
*Do you see ashortage of veggies in your Meijer's?Blue
*Richme thinks that it is a reactionary (well meaning) attempt to solve the sociological conditions produced by the ghettoization of people who live in i apartment complexes.Renters typically rent because they can't afford to buy ergo create something that is within their purchasing price range and get them into a i neighbourhoodand out of the concrete 'depersonalized' ghetto and improve their lives. . . treating the symptom and not the cause. . . and how would I treat the cause?. . . better/broader education to start with!!! More art, more music, more drama, Waay more literature!!!
*BlueSorry. . . I don't know from Meijer's. . . but I do know that when I was a kid my province was a Net exporter of food. . . we used to feed others. . . now we are a net i importerof food, from California and South America, and whereas our food prices used to be stable, they are now fairly volatile, given weather conditions elsewhere,i and we will face serious shortages when California finally drifts off to sea. . .and it's all because of those millions of prime farmland acres that are now housing tracts and car plant parking lots!!!On a personal note, I live in a rural area and we have a huge vegetable garden, and are less likely to be effected. . . but the great majority will not be so lucky.
*You make a very good point. I also just read your previous post, about feeling like an alien cause this stuff was important to you. Also a good point. But if, as you say, the twisted children are the product of parents actively looking for a community where conformism is encouraged and enforced (right down to the acceptable colour of the garage door), what happens next?I'm scared of the answer. I just can't believe that in the end any sort of 'down from above' planning is really good for us, only convenient for planners and developers. But then, I chose to live in a rural area, and the nearest town has just grown up and around over 200 years. All i know is it is liveable.
*Patrick, you are way off track about why you import. You import because it's cheaper! All of that supposedly dissapeared prime farmland is still there, waiting to be farmed when the price is right.In this country, our gov pays farmers NOT TO FARM! Why? Because the huge surpluses of food drives the prices of the finished product lower than the nex't year's seeds will cost!Quit fretting about the "lost" farmland! It's as bad as the old woodsmen complaining about the farmers, cutting down the woods about 200 years agao. The woods was there first, so why does the farmerehave a special right? He doesn't.And if farming is such a lucrative enterprise, why are these farmers selling thier farmland anyways?Just relax, and the market forces will eventually find the equalibrium that is necessary to drive the raw food prices up. As it is, we probably are farming 50% more land than is currently needed. Some day, that will change, and then the price of new farmland will be prohibitive. Then, and only then, will the developers look backwards, and start revitalizing and recapturing older properties.When the food shortage hits, every lawn in the us will be converted into a veggie factory, chickens will become a common site wandering around the subs, people will rip out their concrete, and use it for bunkers, and life will go on!Now take a deep breath, and go weed that garden!Blue
*Lisa,Thanks for this thread.Also thanks to Sr. Joyce Rupp for writing the following..." To my brothers and sisters in developing countries:While I was deciding which oat bran cereal to eat this morning,you were searching the ground for leftover grains from the passing wheat truck.While I was jogging at the health center,you were working in the wealthy landowners fields under a scorching sun.whileb I was choosing between diet and regular soda,your parched lips were yearning for the touch of water.While I complained about the poor service in the gourmet restaraunt,you were gratefully recieving a bowl of rice.While I poured my "fresh and better"detergent in the washing machine,you stood in the river with your bundle of clothes.While I watched the evening news on my wide screen television set, you were being terrorized by a dictatorship government.While I read the newspaper and drank my cup of steaming coffee,you walked the dusty,hot miles to the tiny,crowded schoolroom to try to learn how to read.While I scanned the ads for a bargain on an extra piece of clothing,you woke up and put on the same shirt you have worn for many months.WHILE I BUILT A 14 ROOM HOUSE FOR THE 3 OF US,YOUR FAMILY OF 10 FOUND SHELTER IN A 1 ROOM HUT.While I went to church last sunday and felt more than a slightly bored,you looked out upon the earth and those around you and felt gratitude to God for being alive for one more day.My brothers and sisters,forgive me for my arrogance and indifference.FORGIVE ME FOR MY GREED OF ALWAYS WANTING NEWER ,BIGGER AND BETTER THINGS.Forgive me for not doing my part to change the unjust systems that keep you suffering and impoverished.I offer you my promise to become more aware of your situation and to change my lifestyle as I work for the transformation of our world."I think the good sisters pont is that the material success we all enjoy (and squander)in North America is really just an accident of our convenient birth place.Just because we keep ourselves willfully ignorant of the average persons living conditions around the world doesn't make us any less responsible for them. Kind of makes deciding which flooring to put down in the FOYER sound a little silly,doesn't it? Good Luck,Stephen
*Lisa, sniffles my rusty hammer! You bugged out of work to go home and play with tools... who are you kidding??? Blaming it all on the poor kid... for shame. One slap, and a pint of beer. Attagurl.
*
Jack,
Dante too? I am impressed. Stream water is good for you. Or is it whats growing by the stream?
Beatrix,
Good for you for doing all that research, most people moving don't, and don't even know what they are missing, mores the pity. But I will echo the thought that poverty (even lower middle class) and ethnicity REALLY limit the options. I'm glad that you have found such a great place, but I would hope that you will remember that you are lucky, as well as smart and determined, and to keep in mind that luck isn't any more fairly distributed than wealth.
*
I'm wondering if the comments would have been different if I had described the community and natural surroundings that I live in, but had said that we lived in a century home?? I find it hard to believe that there are no builders out there who would agree that a large home and quality can be used correctly in the same sentence. That's sad.I would love to meet the builders of our home and shake their hands!!
If the definition of a planned community only means garbage houses (five models to choose from), on postage stamp lots, where the inhabitants live only to work, and the children are shipped off to daycare or have nannies,well, then I have it wrong. But if a planned community can also mean quality, well built,custom homes on decent sized lots, where nature has been preserved, and people have worked,saved and planned hard so that they wouldn't have to live beyond their means,well, then maybe I'm right.
I grew up in an old neighborhood, in a house with all of the archetectual features, sharing a bed with my sister and fighting for the bathroom. Does this make me a better person? Or is it the values that my parents instilled in me that does?
I don't believe that you have to live in rural areas or older neighborhoods, in order to feel a sense of vitality. If my driveway is plowed in by the snowplow and I need to pick up my kids from school, I know that the neighbors will help.If we had chosen to live in a town where people only came home to sleep, that wouldn't be the case.Where we live stay at home moms are the majority. So if my kids grow up "sick and twisted" because they know that chicken soup doesn't come from a can, green grass isn't made by a lawn care company and their parents didn't stand in line to ship them off to camp after camp in the summer, well, then so be it! If they grow up to be happy, healthy, responsible adults who can give more than they take, then maybe we've done something right! And if one of them chooses to live in the house that he/she grew up in, and can because it's still standing, then, we've also done something right. I feel no need to defend the size of home we live in, since it's what "we" wanted, but I will say that our parents will hopefully never see a nursing home, because there's plenty of room here!
Contently,
Beatrix
*
Thanks for the insightful post, Lawrence. I will save the question about taste for another topic, it could get pretty hairy. I have a great deal of visual arts training and a personal delight in outsider art, if that answers your question.
The question is really "how are planned communities planned?" I am against the same tickytacky conformity that you dislike. BUT EVERY TRACT I HAVE SEEN AROUND HERE (and in traveling) HAS EXACTLY THAT SAMENESS. I don't see how anyone can say that planned communities are the only subdivisions that impose 'taste'. In every sub going up the houses are all from a couple of plans, the yards are the same, the driveways are the same, the colors are the same (and will stay that way, the siding is vinyl). It is disgusting. Even in the 'upscale' neighborhoods, the social conformity is a written code; so many garages, so many square feet, so many square feet of (fake) stone or brick on the front facade, no front or chain link fences, so much grass area, no play equipment visible....
You can have 'community' in a slum, but I will say that it is generally a community constantly under siege, and that takes very strong people to maintain. Since people who are forced (for whatever reason) to live in a slum are very vulnerable to any setbacks, there is high attrition and flux in these communitites. And never forget that it is the kids who pay the price. I cannot subscribe to the attitude that the poor are that way by choice, and that money doesn't buy happiness.
I agree that planned communities will change over the coming decade, that is the point, and the hope. Remember that the suburb has not changed in planning or design since the 50's, but society has. Perhaps it is time to change. Planning communities does not necessarily mean planning the houses (it should not, in fact) or lifestyles, it just means planning communities for people, not for cars and bankaccounts. It does not even mean laying out streets and lots, it can be as simple (and effective) as mixed use zoning, fair housing mandates, conservation design, and historic preservation.
*
Beatrix, let's get something straight. I'm not passing judgement on you because of where you live, or calling your children sick and twisted. I can respect anyones right to choices that suit them. But for all the talk I hear about brave new frontiers of community planning, I still cannot distinguish between one of these and a "typical' suburb. I have worked in tracts, and in upscale walled enclaves, and for the most part the only differences I see are the price tags attached to the building. What Lisa was saying about mixed use zoning, conservation, etc., makes a lot of sense to me. I wish I saw more of it. But maybe there are hundreds, and I have just lead a sheltered life. I am open to enlightenment.
*AMEN!
*
Adrian, you hit on a great point - affordable housing. One of the things that real 'communities' have (no matter their origin) is a variety of housing for a variety of incomes, household size and composition. The designers who started the new urbanism movement recognised this and advocate it. That doesn't mean that it gets implemented. There is an awful lot of NIMBYism around (not in my back yard) that results in exclusionary zoning, pricing, sales tactics. This is a race and class issue. Unfortunately, most people stick their heads in the sand about it and it costs them in the long run - more prisons, poorer schools, crime, unemployment, etc. I feel that subdivisons and 'planned communities' such as you (and others) describe are not 'planned communities'. They are cheap ripoffs, using the label for marketing. They are planned conformities and are no better than tracts with Madison Avenue spin.
Designer/builder has an excellent article on just this problem in it's current issue. I will see if they have a website when I get home. The article discusses some fair housing mandates around DC that require a certain percentage of apartments, duplexes, and moderately priced houses in each subdivision. These are not houses for bums or gangs, but for schoolteachers and nurses and daycare people, firemen and all the other people out there like us, who work hard for a living, but don't make enough to live with the housing costs in the communities we serve. They have discovered that IT WORKS. It pays for itself, and even makes a lot of profit. In addition, by scattering subsidized housing (owned and rented by churches, non-profits, and some govt) throughout the area they have dropped the crime rates, increased literacy and education levels, lowered unemployment and other social service needs. This is an example of how planning for 'community' does not necessarily meaning designing the buildings or even the subdivison.
I am very hopeful that the real precepts in new urbanism - mixed use zoning, mixed income planning, respect for local vernacular and environmental conditions, people friendly instead of highway friendly paradigms - will be used to redevelop both cities and suburbs, giving 'centers' for communities to develop around, regardless of whether they have old fashioned streetlights or picket fences or whathave you. It is out there, although Sturgeon's Law (99% of ANYTHING is crap) still predominates, you just have to look for it.
I don't have the answers either, and smaller is better (and less for me to keep clean). I think that can be ways to approach solutions, and the more sollutions, the better.
*
I also echo what Lisa is saying and hoping for.But I'll maintain that what we have found is as close to these ideals as you can get,without living rurally or in an older area.
b I feel that it can be done.
And does a day go by that we aren't thankful for what we have? Not a chance!! I know what tract housing is, and have chosen to stay away from it. The majority of large home buyers/builders are not discerning. That's their choice. I may be wrong in calling this a planned community, and if I am, then I apologize.
Beatrix
Lisa- large homes are easier to clean. The dust falls into thinner layers and there's many more places to hide "stuff". (:-)
*
If I had a internet hookup at home (already have the computer - another stroy), I would never get anything done! As it is it is a good thing that the library is filled with furniture so that I can resore the living room, otherwise I would be in there with a cold beer and thousands of books (sheer heaven)...
*;-)
*Haves and Have Nots. Have nots want what the haves have. Haves want more of what they have; they do NOT want have nots in their neighborhood, at their schools, or in the deli section at their supermarket. Have nots have contempt and dislike of haves for having. Have distrust and disassociate from have nots. Can the haves and have nots co-habitate? In the same area or neighborhood? At the same stores and schools? I don't see too many havenots shopping at Macy's, nor do I see many haves shopping at the Salvation Army. I've done (and do) both. I was a have through high school, a have not (?) while putting myself through college. Now I'm somewhere in between; I'm thankful for everything I've seen, done, and have. I'm thankfull for some of the things I have not. I would like my mother and grandmother to live closer to us, perhaps even with us, but then they're healthy and active. I would not like my in-laws to live with us; they're no older, but are weak, immobile and frail.It all comes down to idealism, personal taste, being given and persuing opportunity, making good choices, avoiding un-neccessary conflict, respect, being content, economics, freedom, companionship, reliance, helpfulness, willingness to give and share (or not).WE ALL MAKE CHOICES, WE CAN ALL GIVE MORE.Say....... has anyone heard a who? Left foot, left foot, left foot, right.
*Haves and Have Nots. Have nots want what the haves have. Haves want more of what they have; they do NOT want have nots in their neighborhood, at their schools, or in the deli section at their supermarket. Have nots have contempt and dislike of haves for having. Haves distrust and disassociate from have nots. Can the haves and have nots co-habitate? In the same area or neighborhood? At the same stores and schools? I don't see too many havenots shopping at Macy's, nor do I see many haves shopping at the Salvation Army. I've done (and do) both. I was a have through high school, a have not (?) while putting myself through college. Now I'm somewhere in between; I'm thankful for everything I've seen, done, and have. I'm thankful for some of the things I have not. I would like my mother, my father, and my grandmother to live closer to us, perhaps even with us, but then they're healthy and active. I would not like my in-laws to live with us; they're no older, but are weak, immobile, and frail.It all comes down to idealism, personal taste, being given and persuing opportunity, making good choices, avoiding un-neccessary conflict, respect, being content, economics, freedom, companionship, reliance, helpfulness, willingness to give and share (or not).WE ALL MAKE CHOICES, WE CAN ALL GIVE MORE.Say....... has anyone heard a who? Left foot, left foot, left foot, right.
*Good Point. Blue notwithstanding, loss of productive farmland is a huge problem. It is also not as simple as it looks. It is the land on the edges of towns and cities that is the most vulnerable. There is lots of farmland, and there is still a shrinking farmforce. Farms are consolidating, automating, and in the case of a lot of produce, moving south of the border. Some of the results of the farming practices of the last 50 years are polluted/depleted aquifers, massive topsoil erosion due to wind, super resistant strains of pests, and the threat of new 'killer' bacteria that evolved in antibiotic stuffed stock that can now attack humans. With these threats to the farmer, I can't really blame em for selling out and moving to Arizona. If you are really interested in the subject, I recommend HOLDING OUR GROUND by Tom Daniels and Deborah Bowers. It is published by Island Press and is a very good exploration of what the issues and possible multiple solutions might be applicable to various circumstances.
*Sounds like they just pulled a Disney. I wonder if the zoning will allow daycares in the 'neighborhood'. Also, the predicted rise of home-offices and businesses are projected to help fill in some of the emptyness - but only when the zoning will allow it! How about units for the elderly, students, etc. Again, if it doesn't have mixed uses and encourage mixed incomes, it is still just a fancy tract.
*Blue,Yeah I know. But remember that any major urban area is just a week away from food riots - I kid you not. Smaller towns aren't as vulnerable, but still, how many people in this country have an inkling as to where their food comes from? Not nearly enough by far. I can't wait to see the lawns go to the veggies, but even then, urban grain production could prove problematic - unless you resort to engineered short types grown hydropnically. Check out John and Nancy Jack Todd's books on the possibilities URBAN ARKS AND CITY FARMING is one that comes to mind. All that still doesn't negate the problems of the loss of farmland. Not all farmland is created equal and we are not selective in how we plow it under. And there are still a h*ell of a lot of people in this country who go hungry, and not from lack of work ethic either.BTW, where in MI? Mom is in Jackson.
*Darn that double clicking middle mouse button!
*That's what they said about the Corvair and Tholidimide too.
*Patrick, check out the current issue of Designer/builder. A very insightful article on fair housing. Mike Mahan had it right when he said that buildings affect the inhabitants. Ghetto's are no exception. Also, there is no reason you can't treat the symptom, AS LONG AS YOU ARE ALSO TREATING THE CAUSE. Absolutely the most broad reaching solution to poverty is education. It is not a popular solution because it is very long term, i.e. longer than the politician's term. Yes yes to art, music, literature, and also math, physics, biology, chemistry. Whatever happened to a classical education - latin, greek, philospohy, astronomy, biology, mathematics. It costs just as much to house a man in prison for a year as it does to send him to Harvard.
*Double Amen and Hallalujah! This should be the first page of every mortgage, every credit card application, every car loan. My life isn't so hard, after all.Thank you Stephen.
*
Beatrix,
You feel a diving board is too risky, but you're not aftaid to go against the grain of the people here? I think the latter is far more dangerous!
I'd like to shake your hand! A conformist- I think you're not.
Brian
*Lisa,I really enjoy your posts, and I agree with most of what you say, BUTMoney may buy food, shelter, even security, and a bunch of other stuff, but it does not buy happiness.Rich Beckman
*RichRegretably, I'm jaded enough to believe that moneyi doesby happiness for certain shallow types of people for whom trappings are omni-important, and I think it is wishful thinking on the part of the rest of us to hang onto the idea that these type of people die miserable and unfulfilled.
*You people have all went off the deep end!Blue
*b Sign me blue too!
*When the rioting begins, the hottest commodity wil be ammo!I'm nw of flint.Wait till you can see the whites of their blodshot eyes.Blue
*An interesting point, and a good one. I guess it depends on how you define happiness. Maybe the money boughti themhappiness, buti Iwouldn't tradei myhappiness for any sum of money.Rich Beckman
*Happiness and money....not too shabby an ideal is it not?Near the stream,J
*lonecat, J.DYou both bring baggage to cyberland.Please go sit sit next to the stream with Jack and take in the Wa of the place.Lisa, I read everything Heinlien ever wrote. Take the little girl someplace where she can have a pony. Raised one, starting on a 4 yr old grandaughter.JonC
*In my travels I've never met anyone who didn't want "more" until they had it. Then they either started looking for "meaning" or decided to want "more" of something else. Sometimes that something else they seek is the power to affect other peoples lives by intimidating them.A good example is the current slur against people who choose to live other than the way "their people" live or in a place other than "where their people" live. This occurs with many different racial, age and economic groups.Another is the criticism of people's choices on how they spend their own wealth.As for me, my ancestors were fleeing for their lives and freedom when they came to this country. I certainly don't agree with all that goes on here. But, in a very real way wealth and the power to decide how to use it are the rewards for the successful hunt. It has been so for the entire history of the world. And it will always be so.So, I have no quarrel with whatever housing a person chooses as long as they earned what they have.
*mate,Janis Ian said it, " we live beyond our means on other peoples dreams, and thats suceeding "
*Not so fast, J.D. You haven't persuaded me yet by any means. IN fact, I couldn't understand what it was you were trying to say. Obviously, you did understand me.
*Hello? Hello? Where's J.D.? He was right around here somewhere earlier.
*It's assumptions, generalizations and accusations that give an "open discussion" a gang-like atmosphere. Isn't "this" a sense of belonging? When asking questions, be ready for a variety of answers, otherwise, maybe statements should be made.Too bad so few of you have truly found contentment with who you are and what you have. I walk my neighborhood often and talk to people from all walks of life, living in rented townhomes to millionaires in mansions.Do I learn from, respect and enjoy all of them? You bet! It's not what you have that counts, it's what you do with your abilities that does. So, will I die "miserable and unfulfilled"? I don't think so. Will I have done my best to leave the world just a little bit better than how I found it? Absolutely! And am I also happy that I am lucky enough to live in my dream home that was built by upstanding builders who obviously had a passion for what they do? That's a bonus!! Am I a conformist? That's funny!Beatrix
*
Back on track. There is nothing wrong with living in a big house, turning rural land into urban land, having a five acre lawn, commuting in a one ton pickup (alone) ten miles to work, being well off, and not having your neighbors over for a barbeque (on charcoal) once in a while. There is something wrong with keeping up with the Jones' solely to find gratification and contentment with your place in the world.
The question of one's worth or should not be based on money or position on the totem pole, but instead on how that person treats those around them and the world in which we all live. Having a "big" home is a luxury that some people choose to have, if they're able. (Should we have a discussion about Bill Gates' house?). A large house as a status symbol could be viewed as a bad thing. There is no denying that many people enjoy seeing a house with impact, eye candy. Others prefer an unpretentious, subtle house that suits the basic needs of shelter. Others would put a great deal of time and material into a house; making a work of art of it.
Do we really need hardwood trim and floors, marble or slate tile, granite countertops, wool carpet, glazed tile roofs, walls of triple-pane glass, leaded glass in the entry door, underground sprinkler systems, hot tubs, redwood decks as big as the house, $3500 stainless steel barbeques..... Well, I can't afford ALL of that, but I'm doing my own work on my house, and though my time is limited, I enjoy some of the eye candy, some of the rarer materials, the diversity in texture and color. Corbusier (and others) tried to develop a utopian village of concrete and steel where all the dwellings were the same. They provided minimal essential habitat and lacked creature comforts and a tie to the earth and the materials Mother Nature provides us. Many modernist houses are stark, white (or gray), with few embelishments. This is especially true of early modernism. Today we can see modern, post-modern and deconstructive, etc., houses that use a diversity of materails, textures and (oh, my!) colors! I view this as a move toward humanizing the house into a home. It gives comfort, entertains the brain (nice rhyme), and provided a place that is pleasant to remember and return to. This is what the new urbanists and planners seek. A place you would like to remember and go back to. Not a transient abode that is merely shelter while you do your time at the local CIA photo-analysis center.
I think the hostility that is evident on this string of conversation is toward the lack of permanance, the ethics of quality vs. quantity and the tendancy of people to look down upon the trades and workers that break a sweat. It could likewise be said that there is distrust and disrespect for those that sit behind a desk or that stay at home. We all get headaches and stressed, we all need to eat & sleep and.....
We can all make choices. What needs to be remembered is that it is a finite world. Do we as humans need something beyond basic shelter, or have we gone too far in our search for comfort and happiness. I designed a few houses for Habitat for Humanity (donated my time, of course); I felt a privaliged to help where I could. That came to an end on the last house, it got big at the demand of the owner and the board of directors, did more than provide a safe, comfortable and dry place to live. It was much larger and nicer than MY first house (that I busted my butt and saved to buy). It became a point of contention around town and is now viewed as a error in judgement that has hurt the program.
Personally, I have what to me is a large house (2500 s.f.), it was built in 1914 and facing the wrecking ball (they needed the lot for a new boys prison); I jacked it up and moved it nine miles out of town to a rural lot; I'm in the process of resurecting it into a "home". I've lived in dwellings as small as 176 s.f. and as large as 6500 s.f.; yes, I preferred the 6500 s.f.
I've found that the older I get, the less I want to maintain, clean and have to repair. I also believe that you get what you pay for (or at least you should!). I don't subscribe to the philosophy of "that won't pay for itself within 15 years". If I can reasonably spend a bit more in an effort to conserve energy, provide a more durable method of construction and aesthetic pleasure, I will. By the same token a appreciate quality materials and craftsmanship. I enjoy seeing the sweat and effort that go into doing something a little better. But that's the question, isn't it? What is better?
*
Fred, I agree with the last part of your last sentence-"as long as they earned what they have".The only real problem is have any of us really earned what we have or are we just lucky?Did we earn our material success and slightly smug self satisfaction by marrying the right bread winner? Did we choose the right genetic parents who gifted us with the ability to earn high incomes?Have we really earned anything,or are we just in the right place at the right time?
I know there are many people much brighter and harder working than me who will never attain even minimal standards of North American affluence.Why does a doctor in Africa or even Cuba earn a lower standard of living than even the most un-skilled roofing laborer in the U.S. None of us deserve our affluence.We may have worked hard,but I bet not as hard as our parents and certainly not as hard as our grand parents.What we are is lucky,and we all should be a lot less smug, and a little more ashamed of the way we have used our gifts. Wishing you all the best of luck(with a litle humility),Stephen
*Chad has said many of the things that I havebeen trying to say for the last few days. Obviously, you're a better writer than I am! If I have come across as smug, I apologize. If you are referring to me as looking down upon people who work in the trades, you're wrong.Thank God that we have friends who are builders, plumbers, electricians,etc. or I'd really be stuck! I'm the "handyman" around here, but that's a different subject! What I have learned on this forum is invaluable, and has made me a better consumer as well as homeowner.The people that I look down on are the people who look down on others, and on the same token, those who put others on pedestals!Equating wealth and happiness is just plain wrong. I've never done it and won't. I could write a list of the volunteer work that we have done and continue to do,but that won't help to prove my point. My point is--with alot of diligence, research and alot of luck, we have found a beautiful area with a home that we love. An "eye candy" house? No. A nice looking and strong house? Yes. And... neighbors who get together to eat and drink. As I write this, there's a hockey game going on in my driveway with 11 happy,screaming kids; boys, girls, from different backgrounds, different bank accounts. And do they care? No. This is what gives me incredible satisfaction!! But is this the norm elsewhere? I realize that it's not. To generalize and say that smaller and sometimes older is always better just won't sit right with me. Planned community, new urbanism,luck, a mixture of it all? I now don't know what to call it, but somethinghas worked here! Being 5'8'', I once had a teacher who wrote me and said,"Usually, good things come in small packages, but in your case, good things can also come in tall packages." That, in a nutshell is how I feel about where we live, it may not be the norm, but it's my story, and I'm sticking to it!!Beatrix
*Beatrix,You sound like you are way ahead of the gang in many happy ways....I still wonder about one basic thing...You are the first Beatrix that I know. Could you fill me in on a little name history?Near the stream too,J
*Stephen,Though I like much of what you post and respect you highly, I am philosophically 100% an opposite of you where "luck" is concerned. My experience and those of many of my supposedly less "well off" workers has always shown me a connection between "action and reaction." There may be a delay involved or people may put great efforts into total "deadend" causes but I see effort applied "just the right way" paying off every day. Success alludes the best of us sometimes but "aiming" is as important as "pulling the trigger."Near the stream,J
*
Soooo, after reading the entire thread, what makes a good home? Lady GC and I have been wrestling with that for 20 years, and it is clear we're not the only ones. Let me give it a try: first: durability, solid dry shelter, warmth, security. Second: comfort, living and storage space, ergonomic "rightness". Third: craftwork. I feel that a good home should have all three; plus a necessary fourth ingredient: the home should provide a haven, someplace where "both our hearts can rest" as Tolkien's Ents wrote in their poem to the Ent-Wives, someplace (location, stream, driveway for hockey, enough beds and couches and bathroom for all,library for books, mountains, shoreline, city side street) where friends and family can sit in solitude or companionship, play music or sing or laugh or cry, and heal their souls. Maybe it will be the next house we build this year; maybe it will have to wait for a home in heaven.
But, as we all know - - IF THIS WERE EASY, THEN EVERYONE WOULD BE DOING IT.
Did I mention a fence for the dog?
Still waiting for spring and the permit office out east...
*
Jack,
Beatrix-it's Dutch-The present Queen of the Netherlands is Beatrix. How about Beatrix Potter?
Sleeping with open windows tonight to enjoy the sound of the stream....
Beatrix
*But Jack, you are evading most of this. Your stream is in North America. Arelatively prosperous area of N. America. Is this not "luck", or an accident of birth. Do you know how much easier it is to eke out a living near a stream in the US of A than a stream in Cambodia or India? Two years ago, I spent 2 or 3 weeks in Saigon and there are 10 million people there who if they could all understand English and read all this, would think we were aliens. If we were standing in , say, the pet food aisle of the A&P store debating these things they might try to kill us. Come on back, I'm ready.
*Of all the threads on this forum I think this addresses a subject that is a perfect compliment to the "how to" threads. After all it isn't enough just to know how to. One must also know why to. That adds so much richness to life.In some of the posting there is a flavor of guilt at having been born in a particular place and having achieved a certain amount of goods and status. In my opinion(as if this whole thread isn't just opinions shared for mutual benefit)it is good most of the time to conciously analyze and decide about one's actions. But just as the wolf doesn't feel guilty at having been born in a valley with lots of prey; so we shouldn't feel guilty about where we were born.As for me just as the wolf doesn't feel guilty about the living that has been granted them by birth location and teaching skill of their parents I don't feel guilty about what I have, or feel envy of those who have much more.So, as it applies to housing; a person should have whatever they can afford and makes them comfortable. However, they should never mistake price for value. A house is just a house. It has a price but very little value. What has value is what happens in the house. I have seen people be miserable in mansions and tenements. I have seen people be happy in both. The difference is the realistic focus on people and their lives.So, is having a large house insanity? I think not. Is having a small house virtuous? I think not. Is having something, anything, a value unto itself? I think not. What has virtue is using one's talents and wealth as fully as one is capable. That will bring the best result to the entire community.
*Wheewfffffff!!!........Kickin' ole Daves butt off the dock and into the pond!Thoureaus puddle, eh?
*I don't feel particularly guilty about what we have,but I do feel very appreciative.What I don't feel so good about is the sense of entitlement.Not the usual government handout sense of the word ,but rather the"I can afford it ,so I deserve it" kind of thing.Although my finances would be considered quite modest or average in the U.S.I know I would be considered VERY well off in most of the rest of the world.I know roofers,and carpenters,electricians and plumbers don't live this well throughout the world.I even know truck drivers who take cruises and vacation in Hawaii(sic).This level of affluence would not be possible most other places.So when I look at the big picture I don't see that we have achieved a great deal by our own merits,but rather by the incredibly lucky location of our birth.With the HUGE privleges we enjoy should come some responsibilities,and I think for the most part we shirk those responsibilities in favor of a 3rd car and cable tv. and a big house(while we hold a lot of the world economically hostage to pay for it)As always, Way more lucky than I deserve,Stephen
*Beatrix,This mutt is Polish, Danish, Irish, and English (way back to the early USA days)...Nether to the lands have I been....though got a taste of the Dutch when I built a log home in Curacao not too long ago.Leaving the stream for the snow and the slopes,J
*lonecat,I have built a home in a tough country and I can tell you, those that were sharp and motivated got ahead and a lot of others had less... though in their minds less was "less of an issue" than it was to me, the observer...What some people need as a minimum in life is much less or more for others....b Luck is a bullshit crutch...and if it makes one happy to "lean on it," so be it. Not me.J
*
Jack;
Im with you on the issue of luck being much of a factor on levels of achievement, and Im joined by a man named Paul, formerly called Saul before conversion. Paul stated in a letter to the Galatian church that" whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." In another letter to the Corinthian church, Paul stated that " he who sows sparingly shall also reap sparingly."
Although some people consider words out of the Word to have spiritual meaning only, they do indeed have meaning in the natural realm also, ask any farmer if he thinks he will have a chance for a bumper crop when only planting half of the recomended
seed to the acre, it is an obvious conclusion in what would actually be the result of such folly.
From poker games played in years gone by comes " nothing ventured nothing gained", no seed sown, no harvest. Although some seem to give all of the effort required for success on the outside, they
undo all of the positive things with thier hearts and the confessions of thier mouths. King Solomon,the richest man to ever live said in the book of proverbs that" as he thinketh in his heart so he is", so we see that we can have a heart attack on our would be success.
In the 28th chapter of Deuteronomy Moses gives us Gods plans for success or failure, dictated by our obedience or disobedience to his laws, the first 14 verses describe the blessings for obedience, and the next 54 verses lay out the curses that come upon us for disobedience. Before Cavary all men were bound legally to those conditions and were rewarded according to thier actions, after Calvary the Blessed are blessed because of a right heart and not purely on performance, and that is the basis for the success that I enjoy in life.
As blessed people that live in a land that is still under the divine protection and blessing of the Almighty, even with our very obvious shortcomings and open and blatant sinfull condition, we have the God given and constitutionaly protected right to use and dispose of our wealth and property as we deem fit, large houses and estates included. The construction of my personal mansion has been ongoing for nearly 2000 years and is the home that I am storing up treasure for.
To sum up my perception of the meanderings of my fellow pilgrims in this late age I will borrow from a much wiser man again, Paul said in first Corinthians 1; 19-20 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this world? Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
brisketbean
*Jack; Im with you on the issue of luck being much of a factor on levels of achievement, and Im joined by a man named Paul, formerly called Saul before conversion. Paul stated in a letter to the Galatian church that" whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." In another letter to the Corinthian church, Paul stated that " he who sows sparingly shall also reap sparingly." Although some people consider words out of the Word to have spiritual meaning only, they do indeed have meaning in the natural realm also, ask any farmer if he thinks he will have a chance for a bumper crop when only planting half of the recomendedseed to the acre, it is an obvious conclusion in what would actually be the result of such folly. From poker games played in years gone by comes " nothing ventured nothing gained", no seed sown, no harvest. Although some seem to give all of the effort required for success on the outside, theyundo all of the positive things with thier hearts and the confessions of thier mouths. King Solomon,the richest man to ever live said in the book of proverbs that" as he thinketh in his heart so he is", so we see that we can have a heart attack on our would be success. In the 28th chapter of Deuteronomy Moses gives us Gods plans for success or failure, dictated by our obedience or disobedience to his laws, the first 14 verses describe the blessings for obedience, and the next 54 verses lay out the curses that come upon us for disobedience. Before Cavary all men were bound legally to those conditions and were rewarded according to thier actions, after Calvary the Blessed are blessed because of a right heart and not purely on performance, and that is the basis for the success that I enjoy in life. As blessed people that live in a land that is still under the divine protection and blessing of the Almighty, even with our very obvious shortcomings and open and blatant sinfull condition, we have the God given and constitutionaly protected right to use and dispose of our wealth and property as we deem fit, large houses and estates included. The constuction of my personal mansion has been ongoing for nearly 2000 years and is the home that I am storing up treasure for.To sum up my perception of the meanderings of my fellow pilgrims in this late age I will borrow from a much wiser man again, Paul said in first Corinthians 1; 19-20 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this world? Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? brisketbean
*
and you could add King Solomons words that " vanity vanity, all is vanity and striving after the wind"
*. . . or as my elderly neighbour is oft heard to opine. . . b "F**k 'em if they can't take a joke!!!
*Brisketbean,Although he is not the only philosopher around,he did have a way with words.( Or at least his publicists did)Personally,I like this one:"I bring not peace,but the sword"Good Luck,and taking the world view,Stephen
*Lisa, what's the topic for "Insanity 3"?
*1. The rich get richer and they want square feet, details, and exotic woods.2. As we live in a capitalistic society, Number 1, above, will probably never change.3. People who think Number 1, above, falls under the heading of social injustice, usually spend their money on top-of-the line stereo equipment.4. There is a "New Urbanism" type of community on the coast of Florida, and it seems fake to me. I'm not sure one can build a "neighborhood" overnight, and I'm not sure I like anything that doesn't evolve naturally...5. Life is easier once you locate that little button that turns the light in the fridge on and off.6. By the true definition of "sound," a tree falling in the forest does, indeed, make a sound, even if there is not an ear there toi receivethe sound.7.i Pleasedon't go into Number 5, above; it has afforded me a large measure of comfort for years.8.i A moment of honesty...if I were dictator of the world, I would want all those positive things Lisa mentions... for everyone, except me; I want to dictate from my old house in my crazy neighborhood, where the rich live alongside the poor and there are fewer killings than one might imagine...9. Or a commune, as long as I didn't have to pull weeds.10. Was Carlos Castanada stoned on peyote when he wrote, and if he was, does it lessen the value of his writings?
*When did this thread clear 100? Have I been napping?On the unearned v. earned luck, surely most of us have both. You just can't take credit for everything, nor can you shrug off your failures as someone else's fault. Jack, if you were born anywhere in 80% of the world that's not affluent, you'd probably be hungry, illiterate and fighting the latest batch of intestinal worms right now. (It is estimated that a third of the world's population has worms. They must not be working hard enough?)To take either extreme is too much. As for the Christian angle, that's an awfully selective reading of the Bible. Christ spent a lot of time hanging out with the lepers and others shunned by society; he wasn't there as a motivational speaker. The rich and powerful hardly come off as role models. I admire hard workers because they work hard, regardless of their wealth.With April 15 coming up, I'm sure no one is feeling all that magnanimous. But have a happy Easter, and reflect on the man said to have been the most charitable in history. He among you who is without sin, etc. etc.Agnostically yours, ad
*George, just squirt some epoxy in the third hole of a regular outlet. Hey presto, 2-prong receptacle!Interesting that grounded outlets are now the norm just as grounded appliances are disappearing. How long can it be before we have an all-plastic refrigerator, etc.?
*Actually, prison costs more. But only one leaves the recipient permanently damaged psychologically. ;)Crimsonly yours, ad
*Choose Delete! Choose Delete! Rather than repeat yourself! Rather than repeat yourself!
*Money doesn't buy happiness, but it sure helps. The rich are, on average, happier than the poor. And I'm sure everyone here knows the stress and unhappiness that lack of money buys...No guarantees, just probabilities. If you're happy, would you also like to be rich?
*If one subscribed to Mazlow's hierarchy of needs, lack of money brings low level unhappiness, lacking basic necessities of food, shelter, and somewhat higher level of material comforts. But having money simply raises one's level of need to higher levels, ultimately reaching self-actualization. So perhaps its better said that money buys the lack of basic unhappiness, which only brings a higher plane on which happiness needs to be achieved again.Or perhaps this is getting a little too socialogical. Sorry. A stream works for me.SHG
*Lisa,Have you looked into "The Web Of Life" by Capra yet? I found that it's contents apply to everyday life besides delving into ultimate truths..It's about reality and community (your favorite hobby) verses philosophy and sponges in less deep oceans...Happy Easter Egg Hunting,J
*andrew,Who says I don't have worms now...Anyway it's a moot point to say if I was born anywhere in the world I would be less well off...I live with and work with people, as of late, the world over and get to know them quite well. I have great memories of dancing barefoot with my Curacao crew at one of their strange barred window "trailer bars" with carpet layed on the dirt and old furniture scattered around the edges...The point is these people had happiness as much as I did, or more than, the Doctor who's home we were constructing. And as I got to really know them and see who was motivated to show up at 6am and who was naturally more talented and who actually was the happiest with his life, it all came down to the exact same reasons that all the people I know in the USA are content or not....And the luck thing... was so evident in Curacao too...Those that worked to get ahead and had correct "aim" did so...The Doctor...The Lotto owner who brought me there, the hardware store owner that I came to know...And yes all across the world 80% have much less than 20% and 20% have nothing but misery or death in their lives... Luck...If you're winning the Lottery or having a meteorite drop on your head, then your luck sucks...But when most people whine about their luck or others being bad, its mostly not a question of luck in my observations...I have built a home in a tough country and I can tell you, those that were sharp and motivated got ahead and a lot of others had less... though in their minds less was "less of an issue" than it was to me, the observer...What some people need as a minimum in life is much less or more for others....I stand by what I said... b Luck is a bullshit crutch...and if it makes one happy to "lean on it," so be it. Not me. Happy Easter, and if your luck is down, spend less, earn more and...b Heads Up!!!J
*Isn't it amazing. I have seen the same thing so many times. You can make your own luck - and it seems to me, you are wise if you run from those who either claim or exhibit bad luck.DennisNot by the river, but finished with 941, SUTA, FUTA, etc. for another quarter
*Dennis,To shy away from those with "bad luck" is not bad advice at all... Andmost of us do this instinctively...I truly don't know if it's making thingsworse for the "bad luck" lot but...hey, I try not to get on anyoverloaded ferries when traveling abroad either....Freely available knowledge and the freedom to apply it... I think their the best gifts we can give eachother for self sufficiency and the best of luck.Near the stream, paddling my own boat on my owncourse,J
*The thing is, you are associating bad luck with whining, crutches, excuses etc. I use it to describe the way things actually are. Effort is important, but people who take credit for their circumstances too are taking too much -- just like the the folks who blame bad luck for everything. Neither group is better.My thoughts are with the Kosovo (a long long way from any cute Carribean islands) children, Andrew
*Some years ago I was in Hong Kong with a group that included a number of academics. I asked the question , "If wealth can be created here, why not other places?" Hong Kong, as I am sure many of you know, was originally created out of a mountain by beating down the sides (probably used the same sledge that Blue now employs) and forming flat land. I really did not get an answer from anyone - nor do I have the faintest idea of why today. Well, that is just an observation , not an opinion, nor a point for argument. Maybe some things just are.Dennis
*Ah the luck thing. First we need a working definition.A lot of human characteristics are cross cultural. That is, we could walk in to any small town or village in any culture or country, poll the inhabitants on who is the funniest person here, the most compassionate etc, and reach a pretty clear consensus. The luckiest? I think we'd get alot of conflicting ideas about what luck is and who has it.If we go 2 miles up the road from my house to the nearest small town, population 475 ( they say the population never changes because everytime a woman gets pregnant a man leaves town) and ask who the luckiest guy in town is, we'll get answers like; the guy who wasnt convicted even though he was caught red handed, people who got a lot of money without working for it and so on. In short, most folks there will interpret lucky as undeserving.Ask who the unluckiest guy in town is and a name that will keep popping up is that of a young man who was crippled a couple years ago in a logging accident. Ask him about his luck and he'll tell you he's the luckiest guy on earth. Lucky to be alive, lucky to see his kids grow up and be more involved in their lives, lucky to have had the opportunity to develope his artistic skills. (which have turned out to be considerable)My instictive response to defining luck is a cliche that comes from my own blue collar ex-jock roots: "Luck is the residue of inspiration, motivation, perspiration and preparation."My favorite quote, (or misquote) appeals to the anarchist in me: There is exactly as much good luck as bad luck in the world, as much good as evil. Our job is to keep stirring the pot so that too much of it doesnt settle in any one place. ( Tom Robbins "Still Life With Woodpecker")Do I feel fortunate that I dont have to worry about my grandkids stepping on landmines while out in my fields? Yes.Do I feel fortunate that I dont have to worry about the neighboring tribe coming through and slaughtering everybody in this area? Yes.Am I lucky? Define luck.JonC
*andrew,I can see that I will almost always see luck with a different view than you...Many times in many places the fan has hit the sh*t or vice versa....80% stay put and get sh*t on like no tomorrow....20% get out and head for daylight elsewhere and 20% get the sh*t knocked right out of them like they never saw it coming....I'm no genius by any means but if I lived in Kosovo anytime in the last 1000 years I would have gotton out the first time the crap started to fly and searched for a more peaceful existence.If anyone is reading this from Kosovo and you'd like to check out the Lake George area for a new start, email away...my door is open.Near the stream, and less bullets flying, luck or no luck.Jack
*DennisIsn't Hong Kong one of those wonderful examples of many poorly paid workers slaving for the benefit of a comparitvely few wealthy. Something like the Mexican 'Free Trade Zone' border area with the U.S. All it takes is an uneducated underclass and some slime ball capitalists waving a bowl of rice and willing to build a few skyscrapers to hide the squallor behind some glitz.
*Basically yes. People like to marvel at the "shopper's paradise" and "wonderful service" of the island and Kowloon, but you have to be blind to ignore the plight of the people who live on the other side of the island. Yet Chinese have long sought to slip into Hong Kong, there being things worse than bad. Is it exploitation or is it opportunity? Depends on your politics. It seems we tolerate a lot of thing abroad that we banned here long ago, such as sweat shops and child labor. Oh, but I forget, we're doing "them" a favor.Oops, slipping into the liberal bitterness. The Kosovo thing is eating me. No, i don't know what should be done there either, though the fight seems a little more honorable than the one a few years ago to keep oil prices down and make the world safe for feudal monarchy.
*Jon,You're a writer and a poet...I hope you take advantage of your talent as often as you can....I will reread your post, download it and share it often.To luck from the eyes and heart of Jon...Nearer the stream,J
*Planned neighborhoods? Communes? Urban renewal? Life in the country? I believe I have the best of, most definitely,i allworlds...To my right, lives a young doctor and his pretty blond wife. She has gone off the pill and is choosing colors for the nursery. He comes home in the evening, and they sit by their turquoise pool, talking about how good life is. She proudly plants bulbs in her new yard, they walk their cute puppy in the evenings, they giggle as they wash the car on Saturday. They are not unfriendly, but are simply happy with just one another, for right now. They will soon find out that children often make a neighborhood.Across from them, is Oscar and his wife. They have lived in the neighborhood longer than anyone, probably for ever. Oscar is retired, but still restores old cars in his terribly ugly tin garage. He is known as the best in the parish. He also loves squirrels, and thanks me every fall for feeding his squirrels from my pecan trees. I laugh, and tell him that squirrels are only rats with bushy tails. What I don't tell him is that I am still trying to think of ways to keep the squirrels away from my pecans...i Oscarcan have a tacky, old, tin garage, but no one else had better put one up.To my left, live two men, a gay couple. They are both professionals, and are rarely home, but they take pride in their property. Once a year they literally scrub their old brick stoop with a scrub brush and pail of soapy water. I enjoy watching them from my second-story roost, as they good-naturedly argue over how to string the beautiful Carnival decorations over their door. No one ever bothers them. No one really ever bothers anyone in this neighborhood. (Of course, I am leaving out the time that my dog was the mysterious culprit who stole sneakers from everyone's porch...)Next to the couple, above, lives a black stockbroker, who drives a Mercedes. I mention color only because there are still not many black stockbrokers in the city - lawyers and doctors, yes, but not stockbrokers. And no one else in the neighborhood has such a gorgeous car. The broker loves the car so much that he cut down the beautiful, old weeping willow that stood over his driveway; it dropped stuff on his car. In a fit of... well, something... I ran out of my back door and begged him to stop, which is how I know his reason for taking out the tree. Last year he planted a weeping willow, in the very same spot as the old one. I hear that his black Mercedes got terribly hot in the morning, with no shade. Chalk one up for Joni Mitchell!Directly across the street, live a young couple, who are not married but share ownership of the house. Much to the chagrin of a wooden-fence-neighborhood, they put up a chain-link fence. Their fights are legend on the block. While in the yard, he hits her, and she gets in her car and runs into his truck. The abuse sometimes turns scary, and, on occasion, the police have been called. I think maybe the decision to put up the chain-link fence was driven less by poor taste than the need for them to have an audience.Two houses up from my front door is a double (what most call a duplex) rental unit. It is inhabited by two black families, each with small children, the only pre-school children in the neighborhood. The children bring out a jam box and dance on the sidewalk, while the mothers talk on the front stoop. Sometimes the mothers turn up the music while the young couple with the chain-link fence are bashing each other and their respective properties. Sometimes the children are quickly herded inside, accompanied by the mothers' disapproving head-shaking.On the corner, diagonally across from the front of my house, is a real estate office. It must be a real estate office because a small sign says so. Sometimes, late into the night, expensive cars park outside and someone from inside comes to the car and leads the occupant(s) of the car inside the building. Then the lights go on, upstairs, behind shuttered windows. In less than thirty minutes, the car departs and the lights go off. Sometimes an undercover police car waits outside the building until dawn, but, of course, no big expensive cars show up.A block away, a young attorney spends most of his time indoors, instead of working in his beloved yard. Rumor has it that he is suffering from depression. Two years ago, after twice warning a man who was beating an elderly resident with a pipe (after he had stolen the old man's van), the young lawyer shot the assailant, and the assailant subsequently died. It was obvious on the news that night that the young counselor was truly shaken, not so much by the attack against his elderly neigbor; New Orleanians are sadly familiar with such; but by his own violent act. Killing is apparently difficult to redeem under the best (worst?) of circumstances.Behind me, is the house my youngest daughter and her husband are in the process of buying. She calls me every day to see how her azaleas are doing. My grandson, who is three, asks if he can build a bridge to my second story. Their house-to-be costs less mine did fifteen years ago, which is an example of how varied the housing is in my neighborhood.From my second-story porch, I can see one of the biggest housing projects in the city. From my bed at night, I hear distant gunshots; I also hear gunshots that are not more than a few blocks away. My husband, who used to live in the country, then moved here when we married, often identifies the type of gun that is being discharged. We all have our ways of dealing with anxiety. There are also the sounds of sweet gospel singing, from the lone woman waiting at the bus stop after working the late shift; the sound of birds, more than in the country, I sometimes think - robins, blue jays, cardinals, crows, sparrows, and the occasional pea-hen wandering the yards, escaped from the zoo a long time ago; the sound of the Roman Candy man's wooden wheels and horse's hooves early in the morning as he drives to work along the streetcar line; the church bells from the small churches in the neighborhood. I think of my three daughters, raised in the country until they were almost teens, then moved to the city. They lost their naivete about life early on, which I wonder, even now, was a good thing or a bad thing. My youngest daughter is busy raising her family, and helping her husband in his new business, and she is choosing to do it where she grew up. My eldest daughter, after a two-year hiatus in the mountains of western North Carolina, from the crime and grime and havoc of a big city, has moved back, and is a therapist/social worker in a group home for some of the city's abandoned and most abused (an understatement) adolescent girls. My middle daughter lives across the lake, in an all-white neighborhood, in a parish where people tote guns and sport bumper stickers that say, "We Should Have Burned the Bridge Down When We Could," referring to the fact that their once-pristine schools and neighborhoods are now being invaded by blacks from across the lake, i.e. New Orleans. She moved to this place four years ago at her husband's insistence, and, now, newly divorced, is contemplating moving back to Uptown. It is difficult for her son to sing songs about Jesus loving children of all colors, when he has only been to school with children of one color.So... maybe we all end up from whence we came, if we love it enough, and if our roots are strong.Patty, who shouldi definitelystay away from the cerebral posts!
*Patty,Very nice essay....on your neghborhood life...You get an A and a gold star....I would have had to live there for years to have gained a tenth of your perspective.Thanks for letting me "live" another life in another place.Near the stream, and someday to visit Orleans,J
*Patty,Are you employed? If not, have you considered free lance writing in your spare time? Better than a lot of crap I see published.Rich Beckman
*What I saw in Hong Kong was hope and opportunity. I walked both the island and Kowloon looking into the small shops on Causeway Bay as well as Thieves Alley. Enjoyed the people, enjoyed the city. My only reget is that I didn't have time to take the train to the New Territories. The tone of your post reminds me of my time at Madison - home of the perpetually oppressed. Too gloomy, too pessimistic. Dennis
*A little fire in the mind is a good thing Patty...
*Patty-you should definatly nourish this gift you have, beautiful.
*The word "community" has such a nice warm fuzzy feel to it that it's been misused in much the same way that real estate agents talk about selling me a "home" when we all know that it's a "house" they're selling and I have to create the "home".I've been looking in on this thread now and then and was hoping someone would mention something that I think is fairly obvious. i.e. we cannot create a community through architecture and urban planning because a communitity is relational and only happens when people build relaitionships with each other. The best we can do is to create neighborhoods and plan cities that are more conducive to community building.I wonder if what we observe in modern suburbs is not so much a lack of community itself, but rather that the communities are not coincident with the neighborhoods. Because cars give us easy transportation on demand, it is easy for us to build these community relationships with people outside of our geographical neigborhood at the expense of the relationships with those next door to us.It's interesting that strong communities tend to be formed when people are "forced" into situations where they have to build relationships to survive, e.g. immigrants dumped into over-crowded neighborhoods, suburban neighbors during a natural disaster, children who play together forcing the parents to talk to each other, etc.So then, if we want to re-align our communities with our neighborhoods we have to force ourselves to interact with our neighbors. Some people will do this on their own because they understand that relationships don't happen without effort. This can also be done through architecture and planning by building in such a way that we force this interaction. Unfortunately, given a choice, most people will avoid a neighborhood that has the potential to force them into relationships with their neighbors - not realizing that the end result may be more rewarding in the long run.I seem to remember reading an article once where someone had determined that a person's sense of community was limited to about somewhere in the range of 50-75 people. If I'm remembering it correctly, then this might be useful in determining how to arrange living units into neighborhoods that don't overwhelm people with their size.
*I've received some really interesting e-mails over the last week from people not wanting to post a message here. Some told me about where they live and what makes their community special and a couple of them asking where I live. This is a home builders forum but is a valuable resource for any homeowner. Too bad though that some are too shy to speak their feelings here, knowing that others may disagree with them. Over the weekend, a farmer behind us put his sheep and goats out for all of the kids in the neighborhood, inviting everyone to come and play with them anytime. When I asked him why he was doing this, he replied, "Cause it's a neighbourly thing to do!" .....it's people who build and sustain a community, and the snowball effect is what perpetuates it. There are a few off leash dog parks here that are built and maintained by residents. Every community should have one, nothing brings people together like kids and animals.Just a few thoughts,Beatrix
*Patty- who should definately not stay away from cerebral posts,Reading your post made a wonderful start to my day. An unexpected and very pleasurable walk with you through your neighborhood.I know some of us have been drawn to this thread and it's taken off on some interesting and whimsical tangents at times,and I think that has been important and good. While I doubt we'll ever come up with definitive answers, we may be closing in on figuring out what some of the questions are.Thanks again, JonCP.S. I think the bridge is doable.
*
I think that no matter what is built, communities take on a life of their own, often an unexpected life that was the opposite of what was intended. A community can become a victim of it's own success, growing to a point where what brought people there (low crime, little traffic, etc.) disappears. It's happening here in Me.
*.....and so what would I build? A small Victorian with an office in the turret overlooking the pond across the road and a big barn for a shop and 40 acres for some elbow room."Livable city" is an oxymoron at least until people demand more of themselves and their government.
*Very nice. Reminds me of one by Spider Robinson (no relation, mores the pity) that roughly goes - You cannot create or destroy pain or joy, both already exsist in the universe, BUT YOU CAN TRANSFORM ONE INTO THE OTHER. Its corallary is shared joy is increased and shared pain is decreased. I expect he makes a good neighbor. Last I heard he was living in Nova Scotia...
*Great, great post Patty! Don't you dare stay away from the cerebral, we need you. You make me think of my own neighborhood, and make me re-appreciate them for their normal strangeness and variety. Let none of us become complacent...This has indeed become a fascinating conversation with all sorts of interesting twists and turns, and I think JonC is right, it is getting us closer to the questions.One of the reasons I started this is that I am very interested in all of these permutations. I am currently participating in a seminar on "Sustainable Community Planning" and I would like, if no one objects, to share some of the issues and philosophies that you grand people have contributed. I will give full credit, and if anyone objects, I will not mention anything they have said. Or if the general consensus is reluctant, I will say nothing at all outside of our "cyber-community". Please feel free to let me know here or by email if you have strong feelings about this....Till tomorrow, Lisa
*Sustainable communities are about people, not buildings. It's about having decent jobs, being able to not to have to live in fear (in 4 years in the big city, my house was robbed 3 times, and my new truck was stolen),clean air and water, and most important of all, a sense of belonging .... that where you live matters ....to you and your neighbors ......that you are part of something bigger. It can't be designed but it can be encouraged.
*
I'm thinking more of the sewing shops and such. Hong Kong it certainly not the worst place on earth, but the divide between wealth and poverty is stark nonethless. Either I'm right or wrong (it happens) -- it's not about pessimism.
*
Patty,
Just wondering. I was in New Orleans on business 8 years ago-was told that we couldn't leave without first having a cafe au lait (this was before they became the "in vogue" drink here), at the Cafe du Monde. We loved it, but always wondered if it was popular for the locals too, or was it just another tourist trap? Quite fascinating cemetaries you have as well (here we're able to bury our dead under ground,lol).
Kyle
*
First, I have to thank all of you for the incredible compliments regarding my post! I have been overwhelmed and immensely flattered by the responses - some via e-mail from people I never even heard of! Strangely, I am also a little embarrassed - go figure! If y'all don't stop, my head will soon be too big to fit on the internet, heh.
Second, I have to thank Lisa for starting "the insanity;" like most of us, I, too, hadn't actually
i thought
about my neighborhood for quite a while. The post was a response to all the questions and comments on this board, and I'm not sure I would have ever written it without being prodded by you good folk.
Third, Ron, don't you
i dare
tell my daughter that the bridge is doable! I love my three-year-old grandson dearly, and our relationship is so good due to the fact that there is
i not
a bridge to my house, lol!
Kyle, yes, indeedy, Cafe du Monde is a place the locals love. Of course, Community Coffee is better than CDM, but for people-watching in the Quarter, and just plain relaxing, there's no place quite like the Cafe (helps that it's open 24 hrs. a day, 7 days a week, 364 days a year!).
Before I start thanking sponsors and God, thinking I am at some kind of awards show, I will get back to reality by now writing a post which will ask if I can tie a sink drain into a washing machine stand drain...
Patty
*
...... Beautiful post, reminds me of the old neighborhood in the "big city". I miss my friends and neighbors, but even many of them have left. It's not just "white flight", but black,and hispanic flight, too. It seems as if city life has become untenable for many.
*
Kyle,
Funny thing that you mentioned the builders with large homes- 2 regularly posting builders ( I think) here had emailed me with their stories, telling me of the pride that they also took in their homes, as well as in the communities in which they live. They didn't say though, whether these places were "planned" or not. I haven't heard from the mob bosses yet-LOL!!
As thorough as I was in finding this area, we could still have ended up with the neighbors from hell,luckily, we didn't. Good luck with your new home.
Whimsically!
Beatrix
*A turret! Definitely a turret. With archer windows?One of the great omissions in many areas (including ours) is the old fashioned front porch. Air conditioning makes people huddle inside, when they used to go out to enjoy the long summer twilight. The trend is towards the "cocoon."
*
Andrew,
Would that be a turret with "arched" windows or with "archer's loops"? And if the latter, what century do you prefer? Norman - strait and simple, 13 c. with a "crosshair" used for - gues what - crossbows, 15th c. with little circles at the ends of the loop? and just what do you intend to do with them, I thought you liked you neighbors...
I think every kid (and us adults come to think of it) should have a turret to play in - almost as good as the proverbial cardboard box.
*....... one of the reason I like old houses, they seem to coexist with nature better. Before the advent of a/c and central heat, a lot more thought seems to be given to siting of a house, where the sun set and rose, and the prevailing winds. In "The Natural House", Wright said something about "controlling" the interior climate with modern technology(can't remember the exact quote). Seems better to me to work with the site and nature rather than force the issue with mechanical systems. I'd rather have a couple open windows and a nice breeze than an air conditioned glass box.
*Old houses co-exist with nature? Siting? Get real, when's the last time you saw a subdivision that is oriented to the weather or the sun? Far to many are set up on the prevailing street grid N/S/E/W to match the local requirements. There are exceptions in more rural/suburban subdivision, but orientation usually has more to do with view and contouring of the terrain.As for co-existing with nature, that might be the perception because the trees and shrubs have developed and provide shade. Throughout the country, few subdivisions and houses for that matter, are oriented to have solar gain and let the prevailing wind cool the house.Sarcastic Chad.
*
Archer's loops. But where's the loop? Also, do they come with doors -- could get drafty in winter.
Now I know why some have crossbars. thought it might be a religious gesture :) What are the little circles for, compound bows?
I like my neighbors, it's salespeople I'm thinking about. And inlaws.
*
We're talkin' old houses here, not a new sub division where the the object is to cram the most houses in the least amount of space. ....seen old saltboxes with their backs (lowside) to the north, the better to withstand north winds, porches (verandas) on the gulf coast that shade you and that wicked west setting sun. Before you had a/c, central heat, and decent insulation, siting, etc was really important and there's a few folks around who still think it is. Repaired more than a few tract houses .....it made me sarcastic, too.
*
Andrew
Turrets and front porches. . . my compliments, you have pretty good taste for a lawyer type
. . . grew up in a big old house with a big front porch,we all used to hang there on summer nights, parents, siblings, friends, neighbours. . . love it still, never any a/c at that house, just breezes blowin in off the porch on a warm summer night, sounds wafting up the street, wind in the big old maple trees, can just about taste it almost thirty years later
. . . built my son a castle tower shaped play structure, 12'highx6'x6' crenelated top, arched window holes, multiple platforms to climb upwards to a slide platform, little 'room' up top accessible from a rope'n rung ladder inside or a rope cargo ladder outside, then in through a window. His friends and relatives seem to get more enjoyment out of it than he does. . . oh well. .. his little sister is turning out to be a 'kamikaze', maybe she'll give it a better workout!!!
*Stop the insanity now. I'm begging you now to please let the self congratulatory non-sense die.I admit that you are all better people than I. I really don't want to be a sniper here and that is why I beg for your mercy. Doesn't Habitat for Humanity have a site for this type stuff? Let's get back to the proper way to naturally light a large foyer.
*
As far as I have been able to discover, they are just for decoration. Compound bows weren't invented until the 20th(?) century. Yes, interior shutters were very common, as were tapestries, curtains, and fur hangings. Medieval castles were not nearly as drafty and cold as one might think...Interior walls would be plastered and painted, shutters, tapestries, frescoes, embroidered curtains, would all help with drafts, etc.
I think that they too were thinking about inlaws.. world hasn't changed that much it seems.
*
Patty,
Next to us is our daughter and her husband, who we like, and they like us. On the other side is a land grabbing part timer who shows up 12 weekends a year. Across the street, we see a house in the woods, but we rarely see the family. They are nice, private, and homeschool their two young daughters.
Theres a couple of cottages two doors away that are mostly empty. There are a few people across the lake that live there year around.
I occasionly shoot my Benilli at dead tree limbs to knock them down. We have campfires all the time 'cause my wife's a pyro.
My 50 some trees have deep roots.
I'm never going back to any city!
Thanks for reminding me of how it really is!
Blue
*Hey, Blue, y'all wanna trade homes with us, for a week or so? ; ) Hey, I'm just trying to help you appreciate your place even i more,lol! I have lived in the country, too, with even fewer neighbors than you, but, darn it, Ii likethe Big City - wonderful overstimulation here! I guess we'd live in a pretty boring world if we all liked the same thing!Patty
*J.D., you don'ti haveto, uh, inhabit this post. Maybe you could start a new topic on lighting the foyer?Regards,Patty
*.....now if everyone did have the same taste in homes and environment,and everyone left the city for that good 'ol country life, wouldn't then the country become the city and the city eventually become the country?? ;-) Enjoying my small city, the wildlife (as in animals),and my stream...Beatrix
*B,Your on top of things as usual...You speak words for me...Maybe it's because we're both...Near the stream,J
*Reading the FHB article on Co-housing, the first thing that struck me was that this was too big of group to work with. Having facilitated alot of treatment groups over the last 20 years (too many),I know that once you have much more than 8 people in a group, you'll be fighting a constant battle with sub-grouping. i.e. Once the group gets much over 8 we'll notice that Jack and Lisa and Patty have started sitting off by themselves at meetings, making private jokes among themselves and basically running an agenda independant of the main group.From what I've been able to read on the subject, it seems that most nomadic peoples set up their camps with a little space to define these sub-groups and extended families if defense and external threats arent an issue. I have yet to see this incorperated into a planned community.Incidently, it's not uncommon to hear gunfire out in my rural area. However, you can assume that it is hunters sighting in, people shooting targets, someone like Blue fighting garden wars with that "wascally wabbit" etc. We also assume some basic care is being taken by the shooter to assure the safty of others in the area. To hear gunfire and assume that it was people shooting at each other would take some getting used to.JonC
*Hey, we used to hear gunfire in Chicago all the time.
*... a backhanded compliment? Sounds like your son has a pretty good deal. I have various odd small spaces planned for the upstairs expansion that I'm sure my sonn-to-be-3-y.o. son will love. Since i never grew up, i'll probably love them too.Anyone know how to frame a turret?
*And you left Chicago for D.C.? Forgive me if I'm not quite willing to leave small children dependant on your survival skills.Sheep farmer honing his skills on coyotes, anything under 300 yds is luck of the draw.JonC
*Well, not DC exactly -- across the Potomac in the heart of the "old" Confederacy. (Whoever dreamed up calling MLK Day in this state "King-Jackson-Lee Day" had a taste for irony.) So we're 3 miles from the monument but in another state altogether. We didn't move to avoid crime, but to be closer to family, more jobs, better standard of living for less money, real communities (without living in the godforsaken burbs), etc.The murder rate in DC is lower now, and as I learned reviewing homicide appeals, the victim almost always knows the murderer. So don't worry so much about where you live ... worry about your friends, family, customers ... co-workers ... drinking buddies ... fellow Breaktime contributors ...So what was this thread about again?
*Plant the bow and invent a motive. : )Rich Beckman
*ouch
*You started out fine? Must have been peer pressure.
*At least he's not nor ever was a HIPPIE! Put some flowers in your hair J.D.
*I had to see what was new and it was nothing except I was attacked by what I think was one of my own, (fiyo, lighting the foyer is critical). I'm going for the dictonary for Andrew. Flowers in my hair won't happen. I just jumped on because I couldn't believe that this is still near the top. Good luck solving the world's problems with more modest housing. A right wing sniper always, J. D.Lonecat, outside of this arena I'm sure we can agree on good solid building practices. I'm extremely quality conscience and not the worst bastard in the world. Look forward to your HIPPIE posts in the future.
*Hey, if yer gonna call a guy a sh*t head why don't ya just say it. . . cripes it took me about a minute to find i coprophilicin the dictionary. . . no time. . . no time. . .
*NOT sh*thead! Sh*t-lover! That is, why would you subject yourself to something that smells so bad??? I didn't want to have to put in any stupid asterisks, and I was just giving him a hard time! Now, coprophagic, that would have been mean.Next time, try http://www.m-w.com/dictionary.htm Very quick, and you don't have to stand up.Never a hippie, just one of the generation trying to pick up the pieces scattered willy-nilly by the boomers...
*AndrewToo(o) much detail. . . shite is shite, whether ya eat, stand in it or embrace it.So what does adding i agicto the end do, make it a disorder, or a lifestyle??
*J.D. You remind me of the old lady who kept going to porno movies and complaining about the lurid content. Again and again.Incidently, I am technichally a Yippie or a Zippie, check your 60's references.
*I'm sure you'll figure it out, heck I even gave you a site.Most animals eat the stuff at some point. Our friend's puppy seemed to keep her food in a continuous loop. Humans are just picky.
*Oh lighten up, I have been a minor player in this drama and only peeked because it was at the top of the list so often. I've been active tonight because I get replies to my posts. I don't care if you're a Whippie. I'll leave your thread in peace, but I had fun poking you all for awhile.
*Sorry Patty, i spent 42 years in the suburbs, and had enough stimulation to last a lifetime! The traffic sucks, it's always noisy, and you can hear all the neighbors fighting or boofing.I'll just hang out here, and appreciate the quiet and the loneliness, to the best of my ablities. Besides, you might start re-decorating my barn if you spent a week!Blue
*Oh, J.D., get over yourself! ; ) You were whining and complaining, so I just mentioned that you don'ti haveto be here. And, yes, I know that lighting the foyer is important. It was a snipe, and I apologize.Patty
*andrew d:That's Lee-Jackson-King Day, not King-Jackson-Lee Day. I say son, you must not be from around these parts. And you live so close to Lee's home: Arlington National Cemetery.Here in Virginia we had a state holiday for years in January that was Lee-Jackson Day. When the federal government developed Martin Luther King Day, Virgina Legislators did not want to give the state workers another day off, so they combined it with the existing holiday. You don't think they noticed any irony, do you? Governor Doug Wilder may have even been a state senator when this passed.Frank
*
OK, I am going to jump off in the deep end here and see if there is any interest in continuing the discussion on communities and community design from the "Big New House Insanity" thread.
I will offer a few definitions to get things started.
New Urbanism - the design model that is designed to mimic how towns used to work. Common precepts: walking friendly, everything with 5 - 7 minutes walk; mixed uses, apartments over shops, civic next to commercial; dependencies (garages, granny apts, studios) behind houses; small lots and alleys; unified design guidelines, usually drawing on local vernacular or regional styles. Sometimes called neo-traditional.
Sustainable Communities - communities that are designed to be as environmentally sensitive (and culturally/socially sensitive) as possible. Often designed with water and energy conservation as a priority. May include new urbanist principles of pedestrian friendly, mixed uses, mixed incomes. May set aside large areas for wildlife or wetlands, or use alternative energy sources, community gardens, etc.
Intentional Communities - this would include co-housing, some retirement developments, groups of people who want to build together for social, religious, cultural reasons. (Yes, this includes communes - which are still around and doing some fine work, thank you.)
Subdivision/tract - a group of houses built or laid out by one developer. Almost always single use, i.e. single family housing or duplexes and apartments.
Some questions to consider might be:
Are planned communities any different than subdivisions or tracts? What are the benchmarks to distinguish New Urbanism, Sustainable Communities, Intentional Communities from tracts? Are all tracts bad? What about the ones that were tracts 40 years ago and are now neighborhoods? How might these movements affect builders and how can builders affect the communities/tracts they build? (Think beyond the obvious here)
What, if you were just made Dictator of the Universe, would you like to see and build?