Replies

1. 
   Davo304 | Jan 10, 2003 10:00am | #1

   "Am I bound legally...............  ethically?"

   Legally...that depends.....did you sign a written agreement? If so...then the answer is yes. If only a verbal agreement, you could probably wrangle out of it.

   Ethically.....Hell yes you are bound! You agreed to pay a certain amount for a certain service, WHICH at the time you felt was a reasonable price. Had you felt the price unreasonable at the time, you would have said "No"....am I right?

   Now, along comes "joe shmo" who is unlicensed, and working illegally ( by not being licensed and therefore not paying into the State Tax system, nor into Worker's comp, and a whole slew of other hurdles that MR. HVAC # 1 is paying into...cause he's legit. And "joe" undercuts the price.

   If you and I cut a deal, even if it was just a verbal one with a handshake...and later, through no fault of my own, you backed out on me.....well, so long as I didn't have money tied up in purchasing materials for your job, I'd probably let you wrangle out of the deal....BUT....and I mean BUT........I'd never do business with you again....If your furnaces broke down in the dead of winter and the temp was 14 degrees below and you called me for help....you would be freezing  your butt off for a very long time! I'd tell you to go and find "joe shmo", and if joe was no longer still in the business, then you would be $hit out of luck.

   Davo

   
   

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   Edited 1/10/2003 2:02:57 AM ET by Davo

2. 
   tenpenny | Jan 10, 2003 04:40pm | #2

   Here is a different version of the same problem.  This will be on the final exam.  It will be an open book test, but no telephones are allowed.

   Joe finds a lot he likes in a new development.  One of the partners in the development is a GC, who is building some houses there, although buyers are free to use whoever they wish as a GC.  Joe goes to the GC with the typical magazine sheet of the floor plan, and asks for a good estimate.  Such things as flooring choices, siding, etc etc are all discussed.  $290K is the answer.

   Joe buys the lot, and has the GC work up a written price for the house.  Joe adds 50 sq ft to the house plan.  In the three months it takes the GC and his draftsman to work up a price, Joe decides that since time is of the essence, and the footprint of the house is well laid out, that it is time to have the hole dug to get going.

   During this time, on a verbal agreement, GC clears the lot, puts in the culvert, and blasts the foundation hole.

   After three months, GC presents Joe with a written proposal on the house.  $360K.  Joe decides to wait until spring, because this was a 25% difference over the estimate; allowing for an extra 50 sq ft , this is still a big difference.  Joe pays GC for all site prep work and blasting.  GC states that he only priced what the draftsman drew, and that's all there is to it.  The draftsman and the GC worked together on the plans; draftsman drew what he thought would look nice, no matter what Joe asked for.  GC suggests that the floor plans are silly, anyway, and he wouldn't build a house like that for himself.  "Who would want all those windows, anyway?"

   Joe decides to proceed with the floor plan that he originally wanted, with a different GC. 

   What do you think first GC will say when he sees Joe's house being built?  What would YOU say?

3. 
   noone51 | Jan 10, 2003 05:17pm | #3

   Wiley, the first thing you need to do is find out the licensing requirements for Contractors in your state. There are very few states that do not require contractors to be licensed and in some states there are severe limitations on the types and values of work that can be done by an unlicensed contractor.

   I would also suggest that you check into your liabilities as a homeowner/contractor. You might be surprised (probably shocked) at what could happen to you if an uninsured, unlicensed, unbonded contractor got hurt while working on your home. What happens if this person does something wrong and your home burns to the ground?

   I think the GC that spent the time to try to explain these things to you was right on target. No offense, but I think you should have listened to him. It's likely that the reason you never heard back is because he felt that doing work for you would not be profitable.

   You are now stuck having to make a decision that you are not knowledgeable about other than the fact that you realize that it is probably not correct morally and ethically. Beyond that their could be legal ramifications that may result in a lien or possibly permit violations that could shut down the job.

   Saving a couple of grand is tempting but the moral of the story is "Penny wise, pound foolish".

4. 
   xMikeSmith | Jan 10, 2003 05:53pm | #4

   wiley.... one of the biggest areas available for a screw job is HVAC..... to properly size & install equipment and ductwork, requires  big bucks... to undersize it requires little bucks...

   sounds like you're dealing with mr. undersize..

    never mind the ethics... except of course... you already know the answer to that one

   Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

5. 
   joeh | Jan 11, 2003 07:25pm | #5

   What I recall from Wiley's very first post is that he was a know it all AHole. Looks like he's a little ethically challenged too. Sooner or later he'll have pissedoff everyone within driving distance of his project.

   The good word spreads Wiley. Let's hope it's spreading now..........

   Your friend, Joe H

6. 
   nigelUsa | Jan 12, 2003 01:46am | #6

   If you like I could send you the HVAC "team" who saved a few $$$ when my house was built and its the most unbalanced out of sinc heating/cooling I've put up with. Heating unit is at the left end of the house, the master bedroom is over the top of this with three vents and one in the bathroom. A bedroom at the right end (about 75% the size of master) has one vent. 4th bedroom no return duct. So you have to use the team with the best results. And if I started a job, then you want to "fire" me and use someone else to continue, you would be expected to pay a penalty. Oh by the way, sigh a wavier for any warranty coverage.