Purely hypothetical situation here. Couldn’t really happen: (?)
A contractor bids on my home addition in June, using a full set of finished engineering and architectural plans, all permits and clearances in hand. Gives me an “Estimate” for the job, with the words “Estimate Only-All Prices Subject to Change” emblazoned across the top. This “estimate” is very detailed, very well thought out, thoroughly itemized with line-item dollar amounts, many subs specified with license numbers, all his references with phone numbers, fully bonded and insured, etc. The bid is by far the most thorough that I’ve been able to get from anybody. Not the cheapest, but looks like the best value for sure. Total dollar amount is, let’s say, $200k.
A week later, we sign a contract. This document, entitled “Contract”, spells out in the first sentence that the contractor will do the work as described in the “Estimate” of June such-and-such date for the exact amount of the estimate, $200k. That’s right, the dollar amount is there, in writing, first sentence of the contract. Contract goes on to specify payment schedules and specifies expected completion time of 3 months, etc etc.
Contractor begins work in July. Blows it totally on the layout of the foundation, ends up having to do large amounts of work over again, pays structural engineer to revise plans, lots of additional concrete and rebar, etc. Schedule goes to hell.
Well into December now, and framing still not complete. Many mistakes and much acrimony. I ask contractor, as per our contract, to provide me with complete breakdown of running totals for work done so far. 3 weeks later he gives it to me and what do you know…? It’s chock full of several thousand dollars in “upcharges” on work already completed for things like price increases for lumber since his original bid, for some kind of “energy surcharges”, something he calls “Parallam overages” (I didn’t order any extra parallams!), etc.
Never at any point was anything mentioned to me, prior to delivery of this tallly, about price increases or upcharges or anything of the sort. The question is: What’s the standard practice here? I bet that I could find numerous and varied sources that say “A contractor cannot and must not unilaterally raise his prices after the contract is signed”, while I bet he could not find a single one to say the opposite.
Oh yeah, the best part is that he now says “well, my estimate says in big letters that all prices are subject to change”. My understanding is that once the contract referencing that estimate was signed, the estimate ceased to be an estimate and indeed became a part of a legally binding contract.
I think he’s trying to make up for the $ lost on the foundation, but he insists he’s not.
Any thoughts? Somebody tell me I’m not crazy to be pissed off and concerned. Or is this just par for the course and I should get over it, pay him off, and get the job done?
Replies
Scott, if you started construction in July on a 200k project and it still isn't framed, then you have bigger problems than you think!
I'd be looking to take over this project and boot this contractor off the job.
Have you interfered in any way to slow this down?
blue
Scott -
Easy answers-
1. The Contract is a contract, not an estimate. They are 2 different documents.
2. If the scope of the job was not changed (maybe hidden conditions?) and the extra costs were caused by his incompetence, he eats it. Get in touch with the engineer and ask why changes were made.
3. Sounds like he is not the right person for the job. Buy him out get rid of him, get somebody that knows what they are doing. It will likely cost you, but you could have expected that.
4. If there is any kind of conflict now, get your evidence while you can. Photos are real important especially while walls are open. Check the materials on site to make sure you are getting what you should.
Good luck.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
You have a contract
You don't pay him for things that aren't in it
Changing Captains in the middle of the voyage sounds like a good idea in this case
Good lawyer in the back pocket. It's heading to that. I mean good. Not 50 bucks an hour and Dockers and a Polo. If this guy wants to give you grief, you want the ability to multiply that tenfold and return it with a Santa paper and a bow. And have him pay for it.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Scott,
If things are as you claim, the current situation is almost assuredly lost.
I'm no lawyer, but from a practical point of view I can see a dispute over the variable estimate and how that works with the firm contract. But that really seems like a moot point now.
If he's 4+ months in and framing is not substantially complete, either some major changes or hidden conditions have been added or the contractor has lost his initiative.
Get some professional help, it might be the cheapest money you can spend at this point.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Read through your contract again. It should say somewhere in it something like,
"
J. ENTIRE AGREEMENT
This Agreement represents and contains the entire agreement between the parties. Prior estimates, discussions or verbal representations by the parties that are not contained in this Agreement are not a part of this Agreement.
If yours doesn't.... well...... now you know what to look for if and when you replace this guy.
I hesistate to comment on your scenario. It seems that there are always two sides to every story and the truth lies in between, as they say. Are your payments being made on performance goals and haulmarks, or are they dated? How upside-down are you with your payments to this guy in relation to the work that has been completed?
No matter who's fault this mess is, I'd have to say it may be time to consider parting ways and getting somebody new in there. The trust is gone it seems, probably on both sides of the ball.
In defense of a portion of your contractor's stance, it is becoming more and more normal here for lumber to be an adjustable number. Lumber is a commodity and has been fluctuating drastically for a couple of years now. But if the lumber cost went up not because of the market, but because of his screw-up.... well, that shouldn't be costing you a dime.
I agree with Blue.... a 200K project that started in the summer should be well past framing by now. I started my own 175K addition on my house the day after labor day weekend. The guys are upstairs installing the last of the tile right now. We'll be living up there by New Years. Since I finished the framing of my addition I've framed another addition, a garage, a 3500 sq ft house, and we just started a 2600 sqft house last Thursday. We should be done with that one by next Friday.
Scott,
We are just complete a $200,000.00 project that is on schedule and this schedule was developed prior to construction
"Basic" Description of activities & time lines were as follows:
Excavation duration 3 days
Full basement foundation inspections 10 days
Framing & inspections 10 days
Exterior finish decks mechanicals roofing backfill & compaction & inspections 15 days
Insulation inspection 2 days
Float day 1
Drywall & inspections 10 days winter weather conditions & heat
Interior trim 5 days
Paint & finishes 5 days
Cabs & tops 2 days
Float day 1
Ceramic tile 3 days
Electric trim out carpentry hardware 1 day
Hardwood flooring 3 days
Hvac trim out 1 day
Maid clean & punch list 2 days
Total completion = 3.42 months
You are not crazy to be flustrated.
Tom
Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Scott, since this never really happened, my comments are only hypothetical - just for discussion,you understand...
As long as you have the monopoly money in your pocket, his balls are in the vise. Don't let things go the other way. I suppose that would hypotheticly feel uncomfortable.
If I were to do as this description entails, the line on the estimate would be good up until the contract is signed only, then the contract is dominant. Reason being, because you might wait six months before you say good to go or for the bank top approve your loan or whatever. My costs could go up in the meantime.
After the contract is signed, the only reason I would dream of increasiong the billing is in accordance with any terminology adressing that possibility in the contract, or if you asked me to do extra work and agreed to a change order or accessory agreement.
This hypothetical 'contractor' you have presented to us sounds like he thinks he has found away around contracts but without the help of a lawyer, screwinghimself in the roadway. I imagine him as a guy who has done some building, but not this size or to contract before. He may have never been involved in a foundation before, and this could also be his first time trying to collect for half-azsked work. If I were you, I would help him learn what it feels like to be shut off a job too. No sense waiting for him to really screw up.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Anybody trying some idiotic thing like "parallam overages" on you, after having performed so poorly thus far, needs to be sent packing. Tell him he's got an overage of bullsh*t.
Get a lawyer, and call those other guys that bid the job. Be prepared to grovel, but you'll be better off in the end than trying to finish with this fool.
Wonder what happened to Scott.
You ever wonder if people can't find their way back after the initial post?[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
It's only been a day.
maybe he's a slow reader.
Maybe he's still out taking inventory of the lumber!
lol
EricPaulson
If you would have looked in his profile you would have noted under hobbies:
Paragliding
Stock car racer
Skiing
Country music singer (karaoke night at Nate’s Bar and grill)
Ballet dancer (armature status)
Golf
Bowling
Water polo
Boxing
Checkers
Chest
Bungee jumping
Atv’s
Snowmobiling
Motivational speaker
Sled dog racing
<!----><!----><!---->Reading<!----><!---->
Male modeling
& others to numerous to mention
<!----><!----> <!---->
The man is busy.
He will get back to us.
<!----> <!---->
Tom Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
u suc............I looked!!
Hah![email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
yep me too, quess theres two dead cats in the ally
Tom - Since you told us about his hobbies, maybe you can explain that one "Chest" It sounds interesting.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New construction - Rentals
Don,<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I would be happy to if I more knowledge of it. Actually I think I meant to post checkers. Anyhow the game you mentioned may be a game that one plays while your home is being built. I assume one can gain considerable skill and knowledge the more one plays. We may indeed have to ask Scott on that one.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Tom<!----><!---->Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
i was wondering if the male modeling and the motivational speaking are concurrent enterprises, LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Definitely, there are people who admit having a hard time finding their own post, but I think it is just as common that people take a day or three to get back to it. most forums are not as active as we are, so it can take a week to find an answer in some of them.That is some list of hobbies!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Probably committed harikari.
blue
He had a heart-to-heart with the contractor which didn't go well and he is presently being poured into foundation. He keeps swimming to the surface but a shovel is being vigorously employed to correct the situation.
Many years ago, I was in charge of construction for a bank, and apparently I upset one of the contractors or subs. Never did find out who. One day someone called in to the bank switchboard and said they were going to burn down my house. The operator called bank security, and I had an armed guard at my house for a week. Wife came home from work the first day, and there was an off-duty cop sitting in the living room with a shotgun.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Not knowing anything about the contractor other than his crappy time estimating skill and questionable accounting it's hard to say with so little information. I know this is the minority view in the BT courthouse this weekend *grin*, but there may be more to it than a downward spiral. There are some great carpenters who make lousy contractors and get over extended on multiple projects and projects slow to a snails pace.
Basically I'd suggest focusing on what it will take to get the job done--with or without the current contractor. Clear up the mess to this point by talking with an attorney about the contractual issues and options for going forward.
Maybe the current contract is fubar and the lawyer suggests not going forward with it no matter what.
The down side to getting rid of him is that it's pretty common practice for GCs to charge a bit extra for picking up someone else's pieces. The schedule may also be put on hold for a spell.
Definitely hold your current GC accountable for his actions. Just don't throw the baby out with the bath water. If he knows this is the sink or swim point, he might produce a convincing amount of evidence that the timeline for completion will be kept on track from this point on.
Ok, I'll fess up--this reminds me of a good guy and great carpenter who got in over his head and was a bit green to recover gracefully. Had I first thought of the incompetent jerks that deserve to be run off, this post would have a much different tone. :-)
On the bright side, the lawyer will probably get to make an extra payment on his ski condo regardless of the outcome.
Good luck,
Don
Man you guys play rough if a guy is busy for a couple of days with his wife buying faucets and tile and trying to get stuff ordered far enough in advance to stay ahead of the project. Not that there's any big hurry with this particular project...
OK I'm sufficiently terrified now. That's something like 15 to 1 saying I should pack it up and get a lawyer and get ready for a battle. I don't think you guys quite realize what it's like here. Where are you guys all from? Anybody from So. Cal? Not only are there a lot of lame contractors here, but they're darned hard to find at all. My architect, a well-established but single-man business, can't get a contractor to even bid a job lately-- They're all too swamped with work and can't be bothered. Is anybody out there an actual licensed GC here in SoCal? If so, how much work have you turned down in the past year?
Here in L.A., and probably in most of So. Cal, it seems that contractors hold all the cards. I have known at least a dozen people who have been somehow burned by contractors. Two are currently involved in six-digit lawsuits over contract disputes, and I myself have successfully laid claim to a contractor's entire $10k bond in the past.
I just don't get it.... granted, this contractor is a gooooood talker, I recognize that, but he's also got solid references for projects of somewhat similar scale, a clean record with the State License Board, a spotless Better Business Bureau record over 8 solid years as a licensed GC. I think the foundation was the big problem-- no experience there I would bet, and I should have gotten references specifically for that. This in addition to the fact that there are apparently a grand total of zero well-skilled carpenters in So. Cal that don't work either on A) homes for the fabulously wealthy, or B) movies and television.
The good news is that Friday afternoon my structural engineer came for a "structural observation" and he issued fewer corrections than I would have expected. Mostly A-35's here and there, with a few misc other things. Nothing unfixable.
Rambling there, sorry. Here's the next question: If a lumberyard does the takeoffs for the GC and quotes him a price for the package, then does the yard have to honor that quote? Maybe within a certain time frame? What if lumber prices really did go up substantially since July? Of course that begs the question of why did it take so long to build it (and consequently order all the lumber), because prices wouldn't have gone up so much if it had been built faster....?
Thanks for all the input, even if it is bound to make me lose more sleep.
Interesting. All these guys give you advice that this guy is not the guy you want. You come back with a bunch of reasons why you have to stick with him and can't follow the advice. Now you want more advice. Why bother if you won't/can't follow it? DanT
The lumber yard usually does have a time limit on its quotes ( 2-4 weeks, in my experience)- but should honor the quote within that time. If the contractor takes an unusually long time to frame, which it seems like in your case, any quote from the yard is pretty much useless with the frequent changes in prices these days.
As far as changing contractors, that's up to you. Its just that you asked, and people with years and years of experince responded. You have to decide if continuing with your current builder is worth the hassle.
You're not likely to need the faucets and tile for quite awhile.
At the very least, communicate with your contractor NOW.
Ask him these questions, and have a lawyer picked out.The heck, you say?
Rereading your initial post, I can see you saying "not the cheapest" about your guy's bid, indicating you had at least another bid.
So at one time you had another contractor interested enough to spend time to bid the job.
But now you are acting as if you are completely in the tank with this guy and cannot even think of going elsewhere to have someone finish for you.
So what do you want as advice here? Ways to counter his "parallam overages" claims, and other inane things like that?
Here is a big question, very meaningful. How current are you on payouts? In other words, are your payouts ahead or behind the value of the completed work?
Here is another, also quite meaningful. What do you estimate the cost to be of the remedial work required to get this guy's progress back to right and code?
I'm mildly amused here. If things are aas you say, then it is a good arguement against requiring stringent licensing as CA does. Just as rent controls reduce the number of residences available, tighter regs on contractors seems to have limited the number of contractors in the pool and also lowered the standards of those available.A lumberyard has no obligation to honour it's price quote beyuond what they state on their quote.
You ask that question for a reason...
better to make an application of that answer if we know what lies behind the question.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Can his sorry azz and get someone in their that will take care of YOU! Get out of this situation while you can and start enjoying life rather than be stressed.
At a minimum, you should sit down with your builder if you want to keep him; maybe invite him for breakfast or lunch, and discuss the schedule and your concerns. Maybe there's some legitimate reasons its taking so long, like personnel ( or personal) problems. It would probably be a good idea to have a third party there as referee.
Of course I really have no idea of your relationship with him, but I've seen Type A personalities wanting to micro-manage jobs that they don't have any business doing. That just really ticks off any competant builder. I don't know if that's so in your case, but it's something you may want to consider.