I own a cement block separate 3-car garage with a gable roof which was built in 1960 located near Philadelphia PA. The garage is dry and is located on a slope with about 3 feet in the ground in the back of the garage. I would like to convert one bay into a workshop. I currently have no insulation at all and the garage doors are old thin wood doors.
I would like to insulate, replace the wooden doors and put a gas heater in the garage. I could also cover up the outside cement block walls with siding/insulation, if it will make it warmer inside.
Questions:
Should I add 2/4 framing to the inside walls and use fiberglass insulation? What type of garage doors are well insulated? What type of heater should I use. My local heating friend suggested to use a standard gas house heater. THANKS in advance for feedback.
Replies
Bill,
Based upon what you stated in your post, I am assuming you are planning to install drywall over the 2x4 walls. You could use fiberglass rolls/batts between the stud bays. That would be my preference. As for heating, DO NOT use any type of space heater, etc., that has an open filament or flame as it could cause a fire from the sawdust in the shop. Please e-mail me for any other Q's you have.
Thanks.
Would you use rigid insulation on top of the 2/4 before the sheetrock or add a vapor barrier? I just want to be warm in the winter.
Hi BillJ.
You could install 1-1/2 inch ridgid foam BETWEEN the 2X4 studs and then drywall overtop. If your walls really are dry, it's probably cheaper to install batt, fiberglass insulation. If you are worried about moisture getting into the wall, don't use a vapor barrier. (Example..buy kraft face batt insulation, but simply slash through the middle of the paper to let moisture escape. You could still use the edges of the kraft paper to staple to the studs to hold the insul in place. If you want the vapor barrier, install the kraft face and don't slash it.) Being a concrete wall and all, I think perhaps I'd slash the paper.
Your biggest heat loss will not be through your walls, but rather through your ceiling area. What type, and how high is your ceiling? Is it insulated? Think about that and replacing your garage doors more so than just insulating your walls.
AS for furnace, My shop utilizes an 80,000 BTU Armstrong, forced air gas furnace. It relies on outside air for combustion, and like earlier suggested, it does not have an open flame that could spark a sawdust explosion. This furnace heats up my 864 sq. ft. shop ( 9ft high insulated ceilings) very easily. I can go from 30degrees F to 75 degrees F in a matter of 10 to 15 minutes.
My garage walls are wood framed and were insulated from the "git-go," including an insulated steel garage door set-up, but until I closed in my ceiling (formerly just exposed rafter trusses) and insulated the ceiling bays, my shop was cold....but not anymore.
LOL.
Davo
My ceiling is 2/8 beams that form a hip roof and no insulation. Should I first put those foam things that provide air movement on the ceiling and then add insulation?
My walls seam to me dry, but I might spend the extra dollars and use rigid. Did you recommend 1 1/2 because you want an air barrier between the cement block and insulation?
Thanks
You need to construct a ceiling and then insulate above it. Install some ceiling joists for a flat ceiling or else cover the bottom side of your existing rafters( for a cathedral ceiling and install either plywood (1/4 inch luan works fine) or drywall. Then insulate this cavity. If insulation is going to interfere with your soffit ventilation, install the foam "chutes" to keep the airflow open. If you construct a flat ceiling ( 2X6s @ 24inch OC rafters would work.... even a suspended ceiling with insulated drop-in panels would work) there is no need for the foam chutes; just keep insulation a few inches back from soffit vents.
I mentioned using 1-1/2 inch ridgid insulation because I thought you were planning on furring out your block walls with 2X4 studs. I assumed you were going to fur out using the studs flat against the walls to save precious work space. Hence the insulation would be the right thickness when insulating between the studs. If this was not your intent, then disregard using the ridgid.
Davo
Thanks again. I will probably insultate between the rafters, because I use the center of the garage to store wood and hang junk up there. I would only have a 7 foot ceiling, if I installed beams end-end.
Good idea on saving space by putting the 2/4 sideways. I can purchase shallow electrical boxes in place of what I have to fit the 1 1/2 cavity.
Hopefully, my last question to you... if you don't mind commenting on what type of studs to use.
Would you use steel studs or stick with pressure treated stuff? I have a good air gun to shoot studs on the cement block, so I'm leaning towards using wood. Plus it would be easier to hang cabinets or shelves knowing I have wood behind the sheetrock.
Hi BillJ.
Use wood studs, especially if you have the means to fasten them. Wood will hold better than the flimsy steel ones. And wood is simply easier to work with.
If moisture is'nt a problem, you could get away with using regular 2X4 studs instead of using treated. Put construction adhesive on the back of each one and then fasten in place. I have used regular studs in dry areas before...infact am remodeling a block basement right now with regular studs pinned to the walls. This practice has never come back to haunt me yet.
If there is moistur/mildew, then use the treated. again, construction adhesive on the back always helps.
In these situations, you can place your studs 24inch OC. Sixteen inch OC is overkill...though for hanging cabinets you may prefer the 16 OC.
Good luck on your project. Hope you stay warm this winter!
Davo
"I have a good air gun for shooting the wood studs to the block wall..."
Billj, question for you....what kind of nail gun?
Are you referring to a framing nailer that uses compressed air...or are you referring to a Powder Actuated (PAT) type gun such as a Ramset, Remington, or a Hilti?
You cannot use a regular, run-of-the mill framing nail gun to fasten 2xs to concrete block. Leastways I've never heard of it or seen it done. If this is your intention (using a framing nailer), I hope you know what you are doing.
I use a Hiliti Dx 451 PAT gun that shoots a 27 cal load charge. You can also drill 1/4 inch holes in the block's mortar joints and install 1/4 inch diameter "hit anchors" or install using Tapcon masonry screws.
Davo
Davo:
I thought someone might comment on me using an air nailer to put studs in concrete block. Last year I was doing a small job and had my Bostitich N88RH (1000 inch pds) handy. Before I fired up my Remington, I shot the studs with the nailer and it worked. Maybe there is a saftey reason that I should not of done this, but it worked.
Although, I been looking at replacing my Remington with a Hilti DX460 and maybe I should just get it now. I just think the Remington is too slow.
Do you recommend any brand of construction adhesive and do you put a lot on the 2/4?
The DX460 is a very good gun. If memory serves me right, that particular gun has a front magazine that holds 10 shot clips of the pins. Of course the color coded shot strips feed up through the back of the handle. Once loaded, you simply point, depress the nose contact and fire...BOOM! No special cocking involed; can shoot as fast as you can press down and pull the trigger. Our crew had 2 of those models...we never cleaned them regularly, but they performed really, really well. You can remove the magazine and shoot single shots by hand loading through the barrel...but no real need to do that.
If you can afford it. Buy that Hilti....will be the last PAT you'll ever need to own.
AS for shooting a Bostich framing nailer instead of using a PAT....I would advise against such a practice. Even if the gun has enough pressure to fire the nail into the concrete, the nails themselves are not designed for such penetration. Think about the shape, size and strength of a PAT nail vs a regular stick nail. I think you're risking serious injury if you continue such practice. I would never allow anyone on my crew to do such a thing.
As for adhesive, Titebond Construction adhesive is pretty good. No big preference, the glue is "secondary" to me when I'm pinning. It helps to grab the wall , and acts as a barrier between stud and wall for wicking moisture. I run a about a 3/8 thick bead of glue down the length of the stud in a wiggly motion.
Davo
AS
Heck makes a valid point. You may be required by code in your area to use treated lumber. Using treated for basements or moisture prone areas is always a good idea...no doubt about it.
I have used regular studs in 3 basement remodeling jobs and have had no bad results. There were no inspectors involved in these jobs ( we have City inspectors, but not County inspectors...these jobs took place outside City Limits...no permits required, etc. etc. We are "behind the times" here.)
So, you may want to check your local codes, or just plan on using treated, you will be OK.
LOL.
Davo
Davo,Just a quick couple of comments/questions:
Here in my area of the southwest US we are not allowed by code to place any non-treated lumber in direct connection with concrete or masonry.We must use treated or place a barrier such as felt or even metal flashing between.Check the code where you are,Billj.
Also,the use of an air nailer for this purpose is highly suspect.
Next,Davo, I don't understand how you can have a gas-fired furnace with no open flame. Do you mean that the flame of the burner is contained in it's own compartment? Is this enough separation to eliminate the possibility of a sawdust boom?
Inquiring minds want to know.......
jwwhat the heck was I thinking?
" Is this enough separation to eliminate the possibility of a sawdust boom?"
If you had enough saw dust to be concerned about a dust explosion GET OUT OF THE SHOP IMMEDIATELY!!!!
You lumgs would be non-functional after a couple of hours.
Bill,I've never had a heated shop(Someday!),so I was curious as I have heard stories about sawdust booms....
Also,after 28 years as a carpenter, my lungs already feel like 'lumgs',so your concern is appreciated. (-:
jwwhat the heck was I thinking?
All:
I'm building my shop in one bay of a three car garage and this room will be separated from the rest of the garage. I plan to place the heater in another garage bay and just have air ducts in the workshop. The only concern I had was were to put the dust collector? I thought since the heater was in a separate room, I'm OK to have the dust collector in the workshop.
Billj
If you have the room, move your dust collector outside your workshop area. If your dust collection is very efficient, you would be better off putting that unit outside your shop and putting your furnace inside your shop area, if your furnace is going to rely on "return" air. Keeping the dust collector unit inside your shop will allow the registers to suck up the dirty air from the collector bags and siphon this back to the furnace via the return ducts.
The best of both worlds is to locate both units (furnace and dust collector) outside your shop , and away from one another. This gives you more room in your shop besides the other benefits
Good luck on your project.
Davo.
All:
I plan to never use my air nailer for concrete projects again and thanks for the safety tips. I’m a firm believer on using the correct tool for the job. I guess I just wanted to test the promised 1000 pds inch power. Minor brain tumor I had that is now gone.
I also decided to just use the pressure treated wood for the studs. Since the price isn’t that different, why take a chance.
My garage is 24’/33’ and I plan to insulate the entire building, but only 11’/24’ room will be my workshop. I can only steal part of the garage, due to the kids junk and construction leftover storage. My plans are to build a wall separating the new workshop from the rest of the garage. Although it will be a small shop, I can keep it secure from the kids leaving the garage doors open.
Based on your feedback, I’m considering installing the heater and dust collector separate from the workshop in the other part of the garage. Can the dust collector be enclosed in a large closet or does it have to be in the open room? The dust collector I own is a Delta 1½hp with the 1-micron bags. I will keep a good distance between the heater and dust collector.
Finally… based on Tom’s burned garage picture, I will never use stains or paint with the heater on.
The only potential interaction between the dust collector and the furnace is back drafting.
If you discharge the dust collector outside of the shop area then it would depressurize the area and if you have furnace in that area that uses ambinate air for combustion you will get back drafting.
However, if the dust collector discharge is returned to same space you won't have a problem. Also if the furnace is in a separate space (air wise) or if you have a sealed combustion chamber you won't have any problems.
There are no problems with wood dust and an open flame in a work shop. Many have used wood burning stoves.
NOTE - all of this is about wood dust. Solvent finishes are a different story. Specially sprayed lacquer. I would not trust even a sealed "household" furnace in that case. You still have the blower. But you are only finishing for a short time and can shut off the furnace.
I believe that someone else mentioned moving out the dust collector. And I think that they implied exhausting it outside. That will work, BUT that will pump all of that nice heated air (and $$$) outside.
I don't know what kind of dust collector that you where planning on, but if it is bag type replace them with high efficient 1 micron bags. They flow more air and catch a lot more of the fine stuff which is what will get into your lungs.
I was very impressed with the Hilti... secured a 2x beam into a W14 steel beam! Man, that is impressive.
As to the "open flame" as a source of ignition. Often overlooked is the flash point of a solvent, thinners, varnish. Fellow Land Cruiser owner thought he was safe in draining a fuel tank, as there was no source of open flame in the garage. Overlooked was the flash point of the fuel when vapors reached an infrared heat source.
I'll adding a small "paint/solvent" room of 6' x 10' in my shop, exhausted by a explosion proof fan. Also will help keep the solvent smell down in the shop area.
Tom W
Hi Heck.
I agree with you..using an air nailer to nail studs to a concrete wall is VERY HIGHLY SUSPECT. I would never do such a thing, nor advocate it. BillJ was the one mentioning that technique...not me!
As for my furnace...Yes, the flame is sealed in its own compartment. It is a 90 percent efficient furnace...two 3 inch PVC lines connect to the furnace and run out the sidewall of my shop. The one PVC line is to vent out the "spent" gases; just like a chimney would do. The other PVC line brings fresh combustion air into an intake manifold into a sealed combustion chamber. This furnace ignites by electronic ignition, it does not contain a pilot light. There is a glass inspection plate that I can peep into to see whether or not the burners are lighting, but this chamber is sealed and only air coming thru the PVC pipe can enter such chamber. I bought this furnace for that exact reason....to avoid possible dust explosions.
The furnace is situate in a corner of my shop. I have a 4 foot tall plenum on top with several register cut-outs in it. I have no trunk branches running from the plenum....just the plenum only. When the furnace kicks on, these cut-out vents are enough to heat the whole shop in a matter of minutes (literally).
My shop is 24 X 36 and this furnace is 80,000 BTU. I really only needed something like a 50,000 BTU furnace, but this (80,000) was the smallest one available in this set-up in my area, so I bought it. I has worked very well for me. It's a York Diamond 90, Model# P3URB. Earlier I think I stated the furnace was an Armstrong...my mistake...the Armstrong is my C/A for my house. This furnace is a York.
Davo