Hi, My name’s Denny Little, but at six and a half feet tall, no on seems to call me Tiny.
I’m new to participating in discussions, but have read them for years. I’m looking forward to the experience. I spent many off hours, sitting in the mid-east while in service to my country, reading about the collective antics discussed in this forum.
My problem: I recently bought a second house, and ended up with one that has older wiring, specifically two wires, no ground. Service is 200 amps, copper wire, breakers, not fuses. The wires I’ve pulled thus far weren’t stapled to the studs, so it looks like steel boxes, with only the clamps inside the boxes restraining things. I was surprised to find this in an early 70’s home, but this is Georgia.
In order to make things work, I’ve converted some plugs to three prong, but everyone knows full well that nothing is grounded in this house, and to beware. Frankly, I’m a bit scared to let the bride and kinder plug anything in, anywhere.
My Questions: Other than the obvious solution of calling in a pro and paying the freight for a full rewire, is there any good, safe and legal way of DIY retrofitting a ground wire into the system? I’m wondering if a ground wire run from each of the outlets to a water pipe is any advantage, or simply a fool’s solution.
I’m fully confident in my abilities to wire 110, but I’m hesitant to mess with the guts of the service panel, especially if have to replace it. I’ll leave that to a pro in any case.
I’d appreciate some old and wise electrician steering me onto the path of righteousness here, as I really want to do this right, the first time. Thanks.
LittleDenny
Replies
You could put GFCI outlets in as long as you don't mind their look. I have knob and tube wiring which I am slowly replacing, until then the use of a GFCI receptacle at least gives local protection as long as the GFCI is working which should be checked monthly.
If I'm reading this right, you're saying that a GFCI plug will protect an appliance even if the circuit isn't grounded back to the panel.
I'm under the impression that GFCI plugs are a bit pricy to place in a half dozen individual boxes, especially if the offer only partial protection. I'd think I'd be better off to go ahead and replace the two wires with three, and ground all the way back to the box, and save the GFCI's for the bath and other important circuits.
Guess my next question is whether I'd need to replace the panel. Can I simply ground to the neutral bar, or is there likely a difference between the box I have and the one I need?
Appreciate the help thus far.
Littledenny
Actually, Denny, the GFCI protects people, not equipment.
And, you don't have to replace the 2-wire, you just have to add a ground wire and make sure the groundwire is connected to the grounding/neutral buss in the main (not sub) panel and that the neutral buss in the main panel is properly grounded to an approved ground rod system.
In your first post, you said "I'm fully confident in my abilities to wire 110, "
Your lack of basic 110vac knowledge scares me since, home wiring, if done even slightly wrong is very dangerous and life threatening.
SamT
SamT:
I appreciate the nuances of GFCI's protecting people, and not appliances. Note that I was asking the questions first, and fixing second, and not asking how to undo a screw-up. I know enough to recognize the limits of my knowledge, and tend to look before I leap. Thanks, I think I've got it now.
CaseyR:
Thanks, The references answered my questions.
Littledenny
"If I'm reading this right, you're saying that a GFCI plug will protect an appliance even if the circuit isn't grounded back to the panel."
NEITHER grounds nor GFCI's protect EQUIPMENT.
After I your comment about the pannel I agree with Sam. You need to get pro to at least evaluate what you have.
Yes you are correct. The GFCI does protect however it is expensive to replace all outlets this way. As you say it would be best to pull new wire, and cheaper. As far as the ground goes I've seen different panel set-ups with some having a dedicated ground bus and others having both the neutral and the ground on the same bus.
Ripper,
Nope, the GFCI does NOT protect the equipment, niether does the breaker. The GFCI protects people from equipment that has faulted by shorting hot to case (ground) and kids who stick things into the sockets.
The breaker protects the house from burning down because a wire was overloaded and got hot when a piece of equipment shorts got to ground or the load device in the equipment shorts across. And sometimes when a rat eats the insulation on the wires. Sometimes the "rat" has Klien or Craftsman stamped on its' sides. ;>)
Note the common idea with both GFCI's and breakers is to protect from equipment.
A fuse in the equipment is to protect the rest of the device from whatever already went bad and blew the fuse.
The only time you should see ground busses and neutral busses isolated is in a subpanel. While they may be on seperate connector strips in a main, they will be electrically connected either by a wire conductor or by both being bonded to the metal case.
In the case of a subpanel, they will be electrically isolated from each other until they physically arrive back at the main.
This does not neccessarily apply to large commercial, civil, or engineering projects where the issues of 'grounding', bonding', 'returns' (neutrals), 'stray' electrical currents, and, 'interference' are a whole different ballgame, one which I am not qualified to think about.
SamT
Edited 8/20/2003 4:34:57 PM ET by SamT
You might want to check the following two references regarding 2-wire outlets:
http://www.codecheck.com/250_50_commentary.html
http://www.ecmweb.com/ar/electric_replacing_wire_ungrounded/
It has been a while since I did my own house, so the code may have changed, but section 250-50 of the NEC generally covers grounding requirements. When I checked before I did mine, I did not see any place where it required the equipment grounding conductors to actually go back to the main panel. It might be a good idea, but in my antequated 60amp box, it wasn't possible without doubling the grounding wires under the "neutral" wires (actually called the "grounded conductor" in NEC speak), so I just ran them directly to the copper rod grounding electrode. I did find out from the electrical inspector in Contra Costa County, CA, that connecting grounding wires by soldering was not acceptable and that wire nuts and compression fittings were acceptable (although to get a good bond with wire nuts, they have to be tightened much more than just finger tight...).
With my house, the outlets were about a foot above the floor. I removed the baseboards and drilled a small hole in the wall next the floor underneath the outlet and fished the ground wire through it. I then drilled another small hole through the floor into the crawl space and sealed the hole with silicon sealant. The holes were then covered over with the baseboard. (The tricky part was being able to drill the hole close enough to the wall to be covered by the baseboard) I ran the equipment grounding conductor as #14 bare copper as the original conductors were #14. I then took the grounding conductors for each circuit individually and clamped them to an 8' copper clad rod alongside the house.
If I remember correctly, a water pipe is still an acceptable ground under certain limited situations - except that a supplemental grounding electrode is required, which would seem to make the water pipe a bit redundant. And, oh yes, the water pipe must be buried for at least 3 meters. What is forbidden, is the use of underground gas piping systems and aluminum electrodes.
Disclaimer - I am not an electrician and I have not committed the code to memory (although I have read through the NEC 250 section on grounding).
Casey
I went back and re-read it. As you said the code is a little more flexible in where you can connect the ground wire.
But the water pipe can only use used within 5ft of where it enters the building. Not any place along the pipe which people want to do.
You are absolutely right about the protection. As a matter of fact the whole reason I went down the Individual GFCI outlet road before I had time to pull new wire was the outlets in my boys bedrooms, you know, the stick a finger or paper clip in this hole thing. Thanks for the info on the separation of grounds and commons. Perhaps you could explain the rationale for this, as though I know it is OK, it has never quite made sense to me that the ground and common are attached on the same strip in the panel.
Hope this makes sense, I'm talkin' to my 6th Bud now.
The neutral carries all the current that the hot does, in fact it is part of the normal circuit and is required for operation.
The ground is attached to the case, except with double insulated, ie; plastic cased, and only carries current if there is a ground fault in the device.
If there is current available in the outer case of equipment but no ground wire, and some living body were to contact the case, current would flow thru the body, harming whatever living thing was acting as a current path.
So, you gotta have a return/neutral wire for things to work.
you don't have to have a ground, but it sure is safer.
BTW, that's Bud Light, not bud smoke. Darn it.
There is no connection between neutral and ground before the panel so that ground will never have a potential for current flow, except when there is a fault. There is a short-as-posible connection from the ground/neutral buss to earth (true ground.)
Removing the possibility of ground wire current flow is the reason that ground busses and neutral bussses are isolated from each other in subpanels. Don't want any stray currents flowing on the ground wire between the sub and the main.
Did this make sense, or do I need more beer???
SamT
I'm going to the tavern
Edited for typos (many.)
Edited 8/22/2003 1:35:30 PM ET by SamT
First of all, if what you are pluging in does not have a grounding plug, and most household appliances don't, then the fact that the outlets are grounded is immaterial. Assuming that they are otherwise wired correctly they are just as safe as those that are grounded.
But based on what you have said I would spot check some of them and make sure that the hot and neutral are not reveresed.
Now for all countertop oulets in the kitchen, bathroom, garage, basement and outdoors you should have GFCI protected receptacles. And you can install them at another located where you want to plug in a grounded plug, but see below for exceptions.
You can either install a GFCI breaker, a GFCI receptacle at the head of the circuit and replace the downstream receptacles with one with a ground, although it is not connected to anything, or you can install a GFCI receptacle at each location. If you do this you need to lable each device saying that they are not grounded. The lables are often in the GFCI box.
You SHOULD NOT install a GFCI for equipment like a refigerator, freezer, or sump pump. Even in location like a basement there are exception for equipment that is not normally moved and they are too prone to false trip. Also do not install a non-ground GFCI for a computer or powerstrip with surge protection. There is nothing wrong with using a GFCI for those, but for full surge protection you need a true ground.
To get a true grounded outlet you have two options. Run a new grounded circuit back to the pannel. Or run a ground wire that either goes back to the pannel or to a ground in another box that goes back tothe pannel.
Running a ground wire to a "water pipe" used to be commonly done, but it does not meet code and is not a safe practice.