I’ve done quite a bit of crown molding installations over the years, but have never used the coping method.
I was wondering what the take would be here on coping vs. mitered.
I came across a coping jig in the tool store and was wondering if the thing was all it was cracked up to be. I’m sure many are familiar with it, but for those who are not, it is basically a jig for your jigsaw to ride against as make your cut along the profile of the crown molding.
I know sometimes it’s hard to get a nice tight joint on crown without “working” the miter a bit, but I know I can always get it eventually, mitering the joints.
It just seems like it would be harder “to me” to have to “work” a coped joint vs. mitered.
Any thoughts on positives or negatives one way or the other? Or on the jig I mentioned? Anyone use that jig/ technique?
I like installing crown, but like most of you I’m sure, the darn rooms I get are always so out of whack that a standard crown setting on the saw doesn’t cut it. It’s always trial and error with templates for me.
So just wanted to get some thoughts, always interesting feedback here.
Mick
Replies
I've run thousands of feet of crown, and have coped on almost every installation.
For me, I find it much faster to cope, rather than deal with corners that aren't 90 degrees. If the corner is out, but you back cut the miter a little, it still fits.
I even cope MDF crown, which some don't like doing. But I've found that if some care is taken, it copes just fine.
The other advantage I find with coping is that if you spring the crown just a little bit, and kind of snap it into place, its pretty much self aligning.
I'm still old fashioned enough that I usually cope with a coping saw, tho I have used a jig saw on occasion. I carry 2 coping saws in my van. There's some guys who cope with a grinder and sanding discs, but I haven't tried that.
I coped more than I can remember, it's second nature. Unless its a 135 degree cabinet install type of deal.
I never, ever used the preset crown markings nor do I cut on the flat, Always upside down and backwards..old habits die hard and all that.
No gimmicks either, just a sharp coping saw and razor knife, and maybe a rasp.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
have you come across some crowns that are not copable because of their profiles?
Once, only.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Just curious why you choose the upside down/backwards tech. ? You still have to set the angle of the saw, correct?
I've never done it that way, so I'm a little naive to the procedure :)
Th saw only needs to go from 45-90-45 none of that compound angle stuff and .1 of a degree. The crown numbers are for perfect world conditions, and I have yet to find that short of some of my own custom work on pipeorgan cases where everything was made to exacting tolerances.
For houses and cabinetry installs, just about every fine tune can be made by nudging the spring angle against the fence or table , or tweaking the miter a fuzz..I'm not into relying on higher math for making a joint, I just eyeball and make corrections as needed. It comes pretty easy after a few trials and yrs of doing it.
Also commonly had helpers work..like a flat pencil a certain distance away from the blade under the stock, adds back bevel, a round pencil at the fence will tilt baseboard out for odd cuts..those kinda tricks of the trade, make the impossible, possible. And can save fingers.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
I cut crown the same way Sphere does. If you think of the miter saw table as the ceiling, and the fence as the wall, it makes figuring out the cuts much easier. Just remember the crown is actually upside down, and go from there.
I find it much easier this way, than cutting on flat. Probably because I can visualize the cut.
Shrink it and a coped joint won't open up like a miter joint.
Mike
I miter most prefinished crown on the cabinets and cope all the rest. I started out with a good cope saw and rasps, and they are a good learning way. Then I got EZ Cope and did it for a while, and then I went to the grinder method. There is a learning curve with the grinder, but once you got it, it's great, especially for hardwoods. I now grind most of the long hard copes on the curved crown, cope with my miterbox on straight cuts in combo with the regular hand coping saw along with rasps for the smaller intricate parts.
.
Whatever way you choose, it's the way to go.
I tried mitred when I first started. If it's a 1/16th to long or short the miter will never match even if the corners are perfect 90's. Coping allows for each piece to be cut slightly short , and the last alittle long that'll snap in place
Mick, old school here too. Cope most of the time-mitre when it makes sense-prefinished cabinet crown often, difficult copes where backcutting is almost impossible (or time consuming).
But the EZ Coper inventer sent me one to try out. I used it on an oversized MDF crown job. Lots of ins/outs and damn if it didn't produce a good job after just a few corners to get the hang of it. Since you got it-give it a try. If there's no video of it's use-go to his site and check it out. The blade selection is important. You'll have to manuever the crown in the jig a bit so you don't tear into the plastic-easy to get used to.
Have used a grinder on some wood crown last summer for the first time. Again, once you get the hang of it-produces a nice finish.
Best of luck.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Seems like most here are "copers" :) Interesting.
Any particular order to how you all install?
I once saw a guy who would install crown on two walls opposite each other, he would cut each of those flush to each corner, and then cope the remaining two pieces on each end, and snap them in, so basically he was coping two pieces of molding on each end instead of four pieces of trim coped on one end each. I thought that was interesting.
I just figured the "standard" way to cope would be, one end coped, one end butted to the wall.
How do you guys do it?
I prefer coping the left end (I think, I've had a couple of beers), so I work my way around the room based on that, which requires a double cope on the last piece.
I've seen a technique where you tack up a short length of crown, cope the first piece to the scrap, then go around the room. When you get to the last piece, pull out the short piece, and fit the full length. Now, no double cope. I'm going to try that one of these days.
BTW, when I learned the trade 30+ years ago, I was told "real" carpenters coped their mouldings. So that's a big reason why I do it. I wasn't about to argue with my dad.
I've been using that system for about 4 years now, works great. I leave a couple of feet (at the dummy piece) un-nailed until I've made the complete circuit. This gives me the ability to tweak the last (or is it the first?) corner if necessary.
How hard is it to slip that last piece into the first cope?
I have a tendency to spring fit the crown. Maybe it shouldn't be so tight?
Don't nail the first couple of feet on the first piece. When you pull the short one out it will pull the coped end with it stick a pry bar behind the first piece and you can get the last piece behind the first one.
Wayne
Edited 2/3/2009 7:18 pm ET by hammerelbow1
That makes sense. Thanks.
That's the way do it. I probably learned it here.
Slipping the last piece in is not a problem even if the first piece was a spring fit. As you slip the scrap out, it pulls the first piece away from the corner giving you a little extra room. Then, when you slip the last piece in, continue to hold the first piece away from the corner so you still have a little bit of room.
Easier done than said.
I find it easier than a double cope because you can fine tune the butt cut so easily and since I've probably only done a fraction of the molding that you have, I'll take any little edge that helps keep me from making a mistake.
I'm going to put up crown in the LR and DR of the house we're moving into in Wanaque. I'll try that trick there.
I absolutely love the idea of starting with a scrap piece and removing later to avoid the double cope. I'm going to run with that technique on next weeks crown install.
I was at the tool shop today and came across a little gadget for holding crown up to the ceiling. Called the "Crown Molding Lip". Looks interesting for the times you don't have another set of hands.
I usually use my John Carroll type brackets for support, being I'm a one man show.
I picked up a couple to give them a try.
They work similar to how a roof rack attaches to the roof deck. Tack it up (behind the crown) then slip it out when you get to it. No screw holes(from brackets) to patch when done since the screw that holds lip in place ends up behind the crown when done.
Anyone ever used these? I'll give my take after I use them.
Save your money. Get yourself a couple of one by props a little longer than the lenght of the distance from the floor to the bottom of the crown. Lean one against the wall in the corner so the top of the prop is where the bottom of the crown will touch the wall and set the crown on top of it when your ready to install the crown.If you spring fit the pressure will help hold it in place.
Wayne
Whether bought or made, the hooks work good and you have the pc of mind that you won't smash the #### outta the homowners china cabinet if that prop takes a dive.
I've altered a ThirdHand with a ledge to support the other end. The tension on the ceiling gives me some pc. of mind.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Boy, is this timely! DW wants the family room to have crown. I did the living room mitered and the corners open up each winter. I get starting with a piece of scrap - what a great idea!I shied away from coping because I couldn't figure out how to get it coped at the proper angle.Are y'all saying I cut upside down and backwards? How do I get the
angle? I know sighting isn't going to work - I'm getting blind in my old age...
I like to set a scrap of crown in the inside of a framing square to read the "rise" and "run" of the crown, then measure and mark the saw fence and table, then double check how the crown fits in the saw (wall edge against the fence and ceiling edge against the saw table).Sometimes the wall and ceiling edges of the crown are not actually 90* from one another (though they should be). Then you have to choose which edge will be flat against the saw fence or table. Just make sure you are consistent in the position of the crown in the saw.
Here we go again reinventing the wheel.
I'm a righty and my fellow crown hanger is a lefty, We both cope what comes natural. Can cut and hang an average room in under 20 minutes and never say a word other then a wall to wall dimension.
Because of this thread I know why I get an obscene amount of money for crown jobs.
You wouldn't be the same guy that has done thousands of kitchen installs, many b/4 lunch?A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
No... but I have put up 1000's of feet of crown. I'm guessing the experience is what is making me say.... wtf is the problem???? This ain't rocket science.
Ever do this?
>>Ever do this?<<Ok, I'll bite. How'd ya do that?Steve
I was being a wise arse, but all in fun (with apologies for the hijack):Edit to add: The inside corners in the pic are coped... there now we are back on track ;o0
Edited 2/3/2009 10:06 pm ET by basswood
very slick! I thought it had to be molded somehow.
Thanks Steve,Always good to keep people guessin'I did a step by step thread that is in the archives somewhere. G'nite,Brian
Love it !
What's the technique for preparing the knife profile?
I used your basic 8" drywall knife, traced the crown profile with a sharpie, rough cut it with a portaband saw and tuned it up on a bench grinder:"It ain't rocket science" ;o)
Basswood,
always like to see pictures of your work, you have a lot of talent!
Bill
Aw shucks, Bill.I think all of us have tasks that are easy for us, things that are a stretch and plenty to learn... even those who have installed 1000's of feet of crown. I've only done 6 of those bullnose corners... it will be easier and I'll do a better job next time. :o)Today, I'm building a toekick space, pull-out, step stool (like a drawer--in a 6" toekick).Always looking for a new idea and a challenge.All the best,Bass
I'd love to see pictures
Bill,I'll start another thread on the Toekick Stepstool.Here is a pic:
Brian-As always, thanks for the pics, I just really have a blast learning all that I can about carpentry, I'm having a ball.Your talking about coping dissimilar profiles got me to thinking. If the the opportunity ever arises again for myself to do this, I wanna try taking a thin slice of one profile, and then projecting its shadow with a light source upon the other profile to define the cutline. Or something like that. Or maybe I'm just crazy running at the mouth.
By the way, I have finally succeeded in coping with a grinder. I think I was inspired by DDAY's video on the subject. Slicker than goose poop.
Glad you liked the pics.Your idea about projecting the profile sounds good, might have to be a laser and plotting a series of points.Cheers,Bass
And you've got me wondering what the problem is with having this kind of discussion. Experience has taught me there's more than one way to do things and sometimes a different method may be better than mine.
Of course this is from a dumb carpenter.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
i think he's the guy that doesnt need to sand the drywall after he finishes taping it
Last week, I had crown on a column capital, with a return... and the crown w/ return had to be scribed to fit an existing crown of a different size with a different profile.I glued and nailed the return on, traced the scribe line onto the crown and used the grinder and 36 grit disk to scribe the crown and return at the same time:
Here is one more pic:
Because of this thread I know why I get an obscene amount of money for crown jobs.
Can we see some pics of what obscene amounts of money work looks like? there is no better critics than your peers. what do ya say?
Done that before. I actually used to do it the way Calvin mentioned with a fabricated Third Hand.
I am anal about being careful, clean and neat etc...
Then one day the Third Hand rig slipped out of place and crashed down on the wood floor (that had a thick canvas drop laid out) leaving a nice ding.
Been using brackets ever since, with no worries.
I've never put up crown after the floor was down. The floor was the last thing laid. So if the prop fell it didn't hurt any thing. If you set it in the corner it not going any where. I can see it happening in a remodel or if it was added as an extra.
Wayne
Other way around for me. I've never put up crown when the finished floor wasn't in. Never seem to get a call for it on new work, only re-dos.
I'm anxious to try this EZ Coper out, since I have the day off tommorow I'm going to pick up the crown for next weeks install and do all the copes in my workshop, load into truck and will just need to cut to length on site.
This way I get to play with the gadget a little now, and save myself some time later :)
I have thought about making my own EZ Coper jig, but I'm leaning more towards the Collins Coping Foot. Then I'd only have to hold on to two things, the work and the saw. Also, I wouldn't be limited by the fixed spring and inside-corner angles of the EZ.Trouble is, my circa 1982 Bosch jigsaw refuses to burn out, and the Collins only fits later models.AitchKay
For solo crown work, try running the crown the opposite direction, using the coped piece to hold the end of the next piece. It works like the technique for avoiding the double cope, but you slip the straight end in behind the cope on every corner.With this approach, after the first piece of crown is up, then each piece of crown becomes an extra hand, holding one end of the next piece of crown up.
Interesting idea.
You ever have any problems slipping the pieces behind? (referring to the solo crown install)
Edited 2/4/2009 1:29 am ET by Mick182
Generally I try to cope such that you aren't looking into an open joint from any of the dominant view-lines in the room. ie: you want to be looking down the coped piece into the un-coped piece, so that if there is any imperfection, it's less noticeable. When the view lines are less than obvious I usually cope the left end, then work around the room. Often if the last piece is a long one, I'll make a scarfed splice in the middle of the run, cope both ends and fit the scarf joint last.Steve
Edited 2/2/2009 10:59 pm by mmoogie
HAS ANYONE EVER SEEN OR TRIED THE CUT-N-CROWN SYSTEM!
I WENT TO A TOOL SHOW AT THE EASTERN STATES EXPO AND SAW A SYSTEM WHERE YOU HAVE A JIG THAT HOLDS THE MOLDING IN THE MITER BOX AND YOU CUT EVERY CUT WITHOUT MOVING THE MITER ? ALL CUTS ARE MADE ON THE LEFT SIDE MITER ..
ALL YOU DO IS FLIP THE MOLDING ?
first you measure the corner if the angle is 88degrees you cut it at 44 degrees?
???????
http://www.cutncrown.com
chris walsh
http://www.walshbuilders.net
HAS ANYONE EVER SEEN OR TRIED THE CUT-N-CROWN SYSTEM!
I saw that same device at a trade show last year and asked about it here. Here's a link to that thread:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=101346.1
The bottom line seems to be that it MIGHT work, but there are probably easier ways to accomplish the same thing.
first you measure the corner if the angle is 88degrees you cut it at 44 degrees?
I'm not sure what you're asking here, but all miters are cut at half of the inside/outside corner angle. That's the only way the profile of the 2 peices will match.
P.S. no need for caps
Don thanks for the link ?i found it very interesting ?
all i was asking was if anyone had any luck with the system?
i have cut crown a few ways .... i have no favorites yet i am just always looking out for ways to improve , faster easier better whatever
thank you
chris
chris walsh
http://www.walshbuilders.net
the only time i ever miter a crown moulding is when there is lighting behind the crown.
with prefinished crown if you are off a little (lets say 1/16 in an inside corner) you can see light coming through that inside corner. if you miter the inside corner it is harder to fit but less chance to have light come through.
also to caulk the back of the inside miter in prefinished, even stained crown, there is almost no chance of the caulk coming through to the front. that will keep the back lighting from coming through.
but for 99% of crown i cope