1)Where does one find copper flashing?
2)Is copper flashing prone to depositing green streaks down siding?
3)Is there a better, lower cost flashing for wall trim?
I see uses of Cu flashing all over back issues of FHB. But I’ve checked all over the Seattle area and cannot find a source of copper flashing. I found a sheet metal shop that can fabricate it for me, but that doesn’t seem like the most cost-effective way to go.
I’m remodeling my house that is 16 ft from Puget Sound (at high tide) and have found that most of the galvanized steel flashing my Dad (with my “help”) installed 40 years ago has rusted.
I’m using rubber membrane, but I’d rather the blue surface not show above trimmed openings and belly and base bands.
Thanks in advance for any advice or comments!
Replies
Welcome to BT.
Wish ya would have asked that yesturday.
I just made a drop to pac iron & metals on 4th ave today.
You're gonna get sticker shock buying new right now.
Anyways Alaskan copper & brass has sheet copper & I'm sure they can brake it for ya too. There on 6th & just south of Lander.
Do you look to the government for an entitlement, or to GOD for empowerment. BDW
Here is what I got for my srap yesturday & today
Do you look to the government for an entitlement, or to GOD for empowerment. BDW
Hey Plumbbill. Can you define what is meant by 'clean' copper pipe? I have about 100 pounds that I've been sitting on but before I take it in, I want to make sure I get best price for it.
Copper #1 or clean copper is oxide free and has all the solder cut off. So after an hour with a pipe cutter you have two piles, one of just the pipe, and another of cuttoff fitting, elbows, and the like.Well worth the extra work. Of course, I will strp copper wire when I watch TV for the extra rate.
Like ohmyohmy said.
Pipe that still looks pretty good can be tarnished but not too brown.
No solder---- I will cut off the ends & seperate if I have enough to make a difference.
You may have noticed I had over 500lbs of clean copper so yeah that makes a difference.
Copper with solder = #2 grade
I also had a good sized bucket of dented fitting that were never used, those = #1Do you look to the government for an entitlement, or to GOD for empowerment. BDW
How did you get 218 pounds of yellow brass?
Collecting bits & pieces since Dec 2004.
Also floor drain bodies, clean out covers add up quick.
Not to mention 6" victaulic 90's & 45's for copper are quite heavy, also had a few 6" vic plugs which weigh about 8 lbs a piece.
EDIT---- forgot to mention I had 3 2" water meters in that tub too.
Do you look to the government for an entitlement, or to GOD for empowerment. BDW
Edited 6/9/2006 1:51 am ET by plumbbill
bill are you related to ralph ?
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III PO BOX 3637 136') 62'2"<!----><!----><!---->
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SEATTLE, WA 98124<!----><!---->
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<!----><!---->Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
LOL nope
We have talked about it----- probably related from the homeland of Norway.
I am related to a BT member, but I won't mention his name------ don't want him getting my fan/hate mail from the tavern.Do you look to the government for an entitlement, or to GOD for empowerment. BDW
you ever meet john svenson.. you can recite this ditty:
a hunnert svedes
running tru da weeds,
chased by vun norvegian
mind, you.. svenny denies itMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Vell, Norsvegian Chris tinks he shoont use de copper below de cedar.I found both versions of the WRCLA booklet still on their website. I'd guess they probably got some pressure from the copper manufacturers association to prove it or remove it.The somewhat more upsetting thing is the standing-seam copper portico roofs I was planning for over two entries.I wonder if I could counterflash that with a stainless steel "U" to divert water that "has traversed the cedar" down off the roof without running over the copper itself? This is old growth heartwood so it's going to be quite high in tannins.And I've already put copper end-caps over my exposed doug fir beam ends. The caps extend below a cedar fascia. Does anybody know the rate of reaction? If I increase the Cu thickness from 16 oz. (0.0216") to, say, 36 oz. (0.048"), would it last? That's what I made my copper end caps out of. The wood underneath is compromised (but saturated with Woodlife) so I wanted the caps to be structural.If this is such a bad combination, why is it so obscure?
We use (16 oz) copper with cedar around here all the time. I did a cedar shingle roof with copper flashings about 20 years ago. I did some repairs on it recently and the copper flashing was fine. As I said before, it won't verdigris where the cedar runoff hits it and it's life will be reduced. It'll still probably outlive the cedar.http://grantlogan.net/
Edited 6/9/2006 4:41 pm ET by seeyou
someone stop me before i harm someone..
but .. the reaction of cedar & copper is a little overblown
i've seen copper get corroded in valleys.. but it was usually in a high wear area due to erosion..
so .. a concentrated flow area might be of concern.. but a general flow.. like a drip edge... or a ridge flash... or an apron... no.. i wouldn't worry about the reaction.. i'd worry about erosion.. i'd worry about good details that allow for thermal expansion
damn... cedar & copper have been the standard for about three hundred years.. why should they all of a sudden decide they are reactive ?
i do know that in areas of concern... lead -coat was always the standard solution... Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Really? So you would go ahead and put copper flashing up on drip edges?Would you double-up or increase the gauge above 16 oz.?I could watch it fairly closely for the next 20 or 30 years and always come back and tin the copper if it looks like lots of erosion.Is the tannin content of eastern white cedar (with 300 years of history) significantly lower than WRC? I'm considering whether to use eastern white or western red above the belly band.I really love the look of copper oxide and copper chloride patinas and I think thin brown-green lines on the drip edges would be a nice, subtle echo of larger elements like copper portico roofs and beam caps. I'm also a DIY newbie and sincerely appreciate advice from a pro (although I'm told I do have sawdust in my veins).
seeyou is the copper guy.. and slateman..
but ..i'll tell you RC has more tannins that WC.. and copper has always been the flashing of choice on both of those roofs
on longer lived roofing ... like slate... lead-caot copper is ( was ) the standard...
of course.. me, personally.. i'd think twice before doing a RC roof ... it would have to be under the following conditons
: steep pitch ( 8/12 or higher )
thick butt perfections
copper flashings
installed over either skip-sheathing or Cedar Breather
Hot dipped galv. fasteners & SS on any exposed fastenersMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I agree with almost everything you have said throughout this post.
The one spot where we differ slightly is the use of LC copper with slate.Cold rolled bright copper is the standard in our area-with LC copper being more for color choice than some other reasons.
I know a lot of folks swear by it nearer the salt water,but in 30 years of slating I don't think it makes a huge difference.
Thanks for all the good links in your Tavern posts,even though I don't post there often,I enjoy reading the different viewpoints.My leanings are very similar to what you often express.
My application is siding, not a roof. I'm just looking for drip edges. But it looks like theslateman has a response for you.The implication is it sounds like both of you think I'd be ok with red Cu.
I don't know if I'm understanding this correctly or not.... sounds like a rubber membrane roof that you're flashing in? (I'm picturing counterflashing to cover termination bars, etc...)
If so, and the orig galv lasted 40 years....your new membrane will need replacing (15-20 yrs) long before the galv wears out again. With CU prices as they are today, galvanized might be by far the best value (plus you can go with a multitude of color choices).
Aluminum would also have a fine lifespan with a membrane roof (as long as you use aluminum or stainless fasteners with it, not steel).
I pay for copper flashings ONLY when I'm also buying a roofing system with the same lifespan (Slate, rheinzinc, flat seam copper, etc...).
Ithaca, NY "10 square miles, surrounded by reality"
"1)Where does one find copper flashing?"
Here in the Northeast the stuff is just about everywhere. Even HD stocks it. For a lot less money, you can now get the 3 oz paper backed-copper. Around here, every place seems to be stocking that now (even HD and Lowes) because it works with PT lumber. This would certainly be adequate for some areas given your flashing has redundance. Would not work for drip edges or complex shapes though.
"3)Is there a better, lower cost flashing for wall trim?"
Don't now about better, but you can now get vinyl roll flashing that takes a bend. Certainly cheaper. Limited color selection. Can be painted.
There is always aluminum and lead. Aluminum is relatively cheap, and pretty easy to work. Lead is very easy to work with, turns a nice unobtrusive dark color, and can be a particularly good choice for a sidewall to roof transitions.
"I'm using rubber membrane, but I'd rather the blue surface not show above trimmed openings and belly and base bands."
If by this you mean sticky membrane material (such as Vycor, etc.), these are generally not rated for UV exposure, so while they are great for backup, they should be covered with flashing material.
I got my copper edging, drip mold and Z-molding from Allied Roofing, which I believe have several stores in the Seattle area (I'm in Portland).
http://www.alliedbuilding.com/
In my coastal area, code requires flashing be either copper or SS. In 3 years, I've had no discoloring or streaking on my Western Red or Eastern White moldings/shingles, although most of the copper has gone to that dark brown and is just starting to 'green-out'
But in case you haven't yet...get ready for sticker shock.
BruceM
I'm in Sothern CA and I just had a sheet metal shop fabricate and install the Z-bar, counterflash, facia and stucco screed in preparation for a standing seam copper roof. This is only for a small hip bump out (13 X 3) and chose copper only for the looks, the rest of the house is asphalt shingle, but isn't visible from the font sidewalk and partly visible from the street. The main house roof is 4/12 all around and this hip is 6/12 so it's more visible.
Yes, it's expensive. I talked to them about also making me copper water table flashings for all the tops of the window trims and he made a point that the rest of the roof flashing Z-bar are galv., so why should these be any different. I'm going with galv. and my house is about 200 yds. from the water's edge.
The trick is to get the "bonderized" type and paint it with the best paint available. For paint, I always to the suppliers in the beach area and ask what the high-end builders are using on the houses right on the beach.
Good luck!
Jim
Thank you all.I'm happy to join the forum. Thank you.I'll try to remember all your responses and reply below. But first let me ask another question up top where you can see it.How far up the wall behind the siding does drip flashing need to go? I'm tempted to get it as narrow as possible because of the cost. If I have 4 ft. copper sheets, my preference is to have it sheared to 3" widths prior to forming: 1.5" horizontal + 0.375" 30 degree drip edge + 1.125" vertical. Or am I doing myself a disservice by not going to 4": 1.5" horizontal + 0.375" drip edge + 2.125" vertical. I'll have Vycor backing it and extending above the metal. The difference in cost is substantial -- I get all I need out of two 4' X 10' copper sheets rather than having to buy three sheets (~$700 vs. ~$1050 materials cost for 14#).OK -- here's some response and clarification:Yep, copper is very expensive right now. The price has doubled in the last several months. I was quoted close to $1300 for lineal 320 ft., which includes only about $250 in fabrication costs.I suspected the Vycor is not UV stable, so that's the other reason I want to cover it with something. Thanks for verifying that.The application is on walls, not a roof. What I'm doing is like a water table. I'm applying 2X10 WRC in two locations around the house, one at the base of the first floor (I'm calling it a base band) and the other at the level of the rim joists for the second floor (I'm calling that a belly band). I want to put drip flashing (Z-flashing?) to cover the upper surfaces of the 2X10. This needs to be shaped like an "L" but with a roughly 30 degree drip edge formed on the end of the horizontal section. So it sounds like the paper-backed copper won't work. Good thought, though. I'm also putting 5/4 X N WRC around all the windows and doors. I need a drip edge there too.I've considered going to a less expensive material and then adding adhesive-backed copper tape to provide the look (available at stained glass stores). But I'd be concerned about galvanic reactions.This is a very special house and I'm putting very special materials on it. VG Heart WRC. My Dad came out of retirement and searched all his old contacts to find it. He was there to receive it and says it is the most beautiful lumber he's seen in 40 years of selling housing packages. So I need something that will protect this investment. I may have up to another 50 years on earth and I don't want to replace this again.The other important concern is cosmetic. I love copper patina at all stages. I'm so close to the water that some beam end covers I fabricated last summer are already dark brown with green tinges.316 SS is nice and stable in this environment, but I'm not in love with the cosmetics. 304 doesn't work, at least on the water side of the house.Vinyl is interesting, but UV is very intense off the water and I'd be a little concerned about it bleaching then failing. EDIT: Just reread- I didn't know you could paint vinyl.Lead is a very interesting idea. The black that it oxidizes to is not unattractive.I'm surprised there's no fiberglass available. I've got fiberglass-clad windows that Milgard claims are very stable and can be painted. Out here, HD and Lowes don't carry copper flashing. My Dad didn't even know where to get it so it's not used very commonly by volume builders.Online Metals south of the ship canal in Seattle also carries sheet copper, but they don't fabricate. So I started calling metal fabricators and found the quote I gave above.Thanks for the name of the manufacturer. EDIT: I could have sworn someone suggested a manufacturer. But I'll look at Allied Roofing and see what they have. Perhaps I can at least spread my costs out over the summer rather than pay for it all to get the economy of scale.Did I respond to everyone? If not, sorry. I'll go reread your responses.Also, I'm obviously not responding just to one person. Thank you all again.
Edited 6/8/2006 3:38 pm ET by Powpowhound
>>>>>>>>>>>>I was quoted close to $1300 for lineal 320 ft., which includes only about $250 in fabrication costs.For what you want, that's outrageous. At today's price, out the door of my shop, it would cost you about $830.00 (for 16 oz cu)if I understand your profile correctly. Look around some more.
Does this hat make my butt look big?
http://grantlogan.net/
Thanks, Seeyou. I'll do that.
> I'm in Sothern CA ....
So am I. I did a small standing seam job on my place (just over 3 squares) in Hollywood. I still have maybe 4-5 full 3x10 sheets of 16 oz, plus some 32 oz full sheets (behind stuff where I can't see to count them), and of course a bunch of smaller pieces. I also have the Tapco brake and the Rau seam closer, soldering coppers and furnace, etc.
Where exactly are you?
-- J.S.
Whoa!
Per "Installing Cedar Siding", published in 1993 by the Western Red Cedar Lumber Association (http://www.wrcla.org/about_us/brochuresandpublications_html/technical_literature/pdf/installingsiding.pdf), "Flashing should be made from a corrosion-resistant material such as galvanized steel or aluminum. Copper flashing may be used above exposed cedar siding. However, the use of copper where rainwater has first traversed exposed cedar siding can cause deterioration of the flashing."
!
...and the story continues. The booklet was revised in 2001 and the last two sentences I quoted above were eliminated. What does this mean?
Edited 6/8/2006 7:00 pm ET by Powpowhound
>>>>>>>>>>>>...and the story continues. The booklet was revised in 2001 and the last two sentences I quoted above were eliminated. What does this mean?The tanic (tannic?) acid in cedar is corrosive to copper. Around here, where copper valleys are used, the areas right below the keyways dumping onto the copper stay shiney. I'm guessing that since cedar (old growth) roofs used to last a lot longer than they do now, the roof may have outlived the flashings. 20 years seems to be the max on a cedar roof now, so the copper flashings may last longer than the cedar. My $.02.
Does this hat make my butt look big?
http://grantlogan.net/
I don't know what that means. It's still on the website that way.
I also know that I did siding demonstrations for the WRCLA at JLCLive in Providence, and one of the points I was specifically asked to make was not to use copper.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Take a look at the Western Red Cedar Lumber Association's website (http://www.wrcla.org). You'll find that they specifically don't recommend using copper flashings below cedar siding. Cedar's tannins corrode it relatively quickly. Nearly every other flashing material imaginable is permitted, even lead-coated copper.
Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Finding copper flashing
I know it's been a long time since you posted your question, PPH, but I came across it today when I had the same question. I've looked around, too. It can be had but as you found out, not that easily.
I bought some today at Online Metals. They are actually located IN Seattle, just off 15th NW on the south shore of the cut. They're set up for online ordering, not going there to order. Your presence there is only about picking up an order, not about shopping, it's just a warehouse. Order online and pick it up later the same day or the next. They're pretty busy and there's a lead time of a couple to several hours before your order is cut and ready. I used OLM once before, 304 stainless tubing for motorcycle handlebars. They have almost anything and you can buy only what you need, not whole sheets or sticks.
I also found copper sheet at Alaska Copper and Brass. They recently moved to Kent from Seattle. Their minimum order is $150. For 16oz (24ga) cu, that's one foot wide by twenty feet long.
You can also order cu flashing from Stoneway Roofing but it takes a week or two to get.
There is also a Metal Supermarket, also in Kent, but I didn't try them. They do list copper flashing on their web page but you'll probably have to order it.
https://www.onlinemetals.com/
http://www.metalsupermarkets.com/
Pricey stuff. - r
Copper Flashings
Powpowhound,
Call Nate at Fast Flashings up on Lake City Way. They are reasonably priced and can make you whatever you need.
HV