We are getting ready to build a new home and our contractor has said he prefers to use PVC instead of copper for plumbing. We had the opinion that copper was better…any opinions? Thanks
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Skim-coating with joint compound covers texture, renews old drywall and plaster, and leaves smooth surfaces ready to paint.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
For water distribution lines or for the DWV?
If it is for your potable water DO NOT let them use PVC. CPVC is legal in most areas but PVC is NOT. Copper is far better than CPVC. I consider CPVC to be crap but some see it differently.
Get them to use PEX. It is better than both.
If they are talking about the DWV piping then copper is OK but far more expensive and no better than PVC.
PVC is legal for potable water -- you can find NSF emblems on Sched. 40 fittings.
However, PVC will not handle hot water. CPVC is needed for that.
That said, most plumbers are now using PEX, aren't they? The labor savings are supposed to make it worthwhile.
Just had the 35-yr. old galvanzied plumbing in my house completely replaced with PEX. I sleep better now.
It is not legal for potable water INSIDE a structure.
WH do you have a link or links to pex piping? Mostly dealing with installation methods and whos' pipe is better. It's time to clean up a mess that I have here.
I would like to look into pex in depth.
Thanks.... IMERC
I'll look. Most of the websites I know of are just marketing. Installation manuals are not online as far as I know. Tell me a bit more what you are looking for. And brand name?
Looking for brand name suggestions.
I would like to know more about the quirks that always seem to show up during installation of any thing. Some thing not quite right, as you know, can be disatorous. What can be 2nd nature to some one that works with a product regularly some times lends it's self to be a show stopper to others.
Trying, as the Boy Scouts say, to "be prepared".
OK, are you talking about installing this yourself then? So you want some guidance on doing it on a project whether for yourself or otherwise?
Just trying to understand so i can help better.
My house. My project. My retro.
Initally I put in 100% copper including 4" soil lines above grade. Wrapped leaded cast below grade. Accessibility was kept in mind durning installation. Crete incassed where the soil line crosses the drive.
Normally I do only the most rudimentary of plumbing and the repairs that I have to elsewhere and for others.
Adding a half bath, moving mech room, moving mud room, freeze up amd you know what happened from there. Got WH swap out [elec to gas] and half to full bath in motion. Little next to none on hand in copper.
Thanks WetHead. I appreciate this.... IMERC
the last 18" of your WH connection cannot be PEX.
there are 2 main types on the popular market... A&B... others out there too but these are the most popular.
B PEX can be crimped with the old PB crimp tools. It is OK and I have used it.
A PEX is better. Fittings cost a LOT more. Rehau has the VERY BEST fitting system available but their tool kit is 500 bucks or so. Wirsbo has a decent fitting system and their tool kit will run you around 300 dollars.
Choose the brand you want and then get the installation maual for that brand.
If you need some crimp tools I have some for sale or you can buy them on eBay.
Do not mix type A with type B in a system.
Be careful and use common sense is the best thing I can tell you. Follow instructions carefully and you will be delighted. Skip steps and you will hate PEX. No different than copper in this reguard.
If you need parts, etc and can't find what you want or need (like Rehau, etc.) just call me and I will set you up with what you need. E-mail me for my number.
Good luck!
Justification of the tools is a little squinty eyed.
I'm going with the copper. Still have my B tanks, rose buds, turbo and all the rest of the nonsense.. Even a fine line of Rigid cutters and threaders. I did the CI/lead install here.
Had the KISS technique in mind when I asked about the Pex.
Wethead you can't believe how much your help is appreciated.
I think Notchman is refering to the hydrogencyanide out gassing if you burn PVC water pipe or conduit. I only know cpvc and pvc as their temperture rating differences. Lots of melt down and bursting to be had in pvc when it's used on the HW side.
Dinosaur, I believe, is refering to the fiasco from the poly pipe made by, I think, DuPont 25 / 30 years ago or so. I recall Qwest as being one of the marketers.
Does my memory serve me right or has CRS eaten some holes in it?
thanks again Wethead.
IMERC
I know what he is referring to but he was shooting off without knowing what was going on. I like him but he was wrong. LOL
Which he? Both? Was I off in left field or not too far from the mark?
Please sooth the raging CRS.
Dinasour was wrong. But I like you too! LOL
ok time for a group hug....Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.
long as you don't bring up the barney song... I'd have to kill you.
Can you liking me be considered dangerous?...LOL
So I was wrong too. Care to indulge me. Don't mind learning from some one in the know.
All that copper i put in this place was here when I moved in. Couldn't let it go to waste. No pun this time.
I am a bit confused here. In some areas copper is OK. And it certainly is a better choice then CPVC or PB. But for many applications PEX is proving to be the product of choice. The fact that it installs cheaper is just a bonus. I am not against copper. Just don't hold it up as the ultimate because the facts prove otherwise.
Did I answer your question?
Edited 6/10/2003 1:43:34 AM ET by Wet Head Warrior
It was my statements in post .17. I was asking for clarification on the comments I made regarding CPVC, PVC and poly.
I'm inclined to believe now that that I didn't remember facts correctly. Still like to blame CRS for it if I can get away with it.[Can't Rember Sh!t]
This copper and all the fittings were on hand when I moved in. 3 & 4" type L has got to be some bucks. In fact all of it is type L. So I put it to use. The AS fixtures for 2 baths were here too. Can you imagine all this stored in the attic along with CI. Just mentioned this on a FYI basis.
From reading your posts to others and what you have said to me I have come to realize that your jugement and what you say can be trusted. Many times I have felt that you have gone beyound the call and I'm willing to bet that you are a tough task master but fair.
Thanks again for your help.
PEX is not Code in LA. It seems that the inside diameter of half inch supply lines is less than the copper and therefore there is too much pressure in the lines and a fear that they could rupture.
I am not an expert on this issue and only reporting what my inspector said.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
"PEX is not Code in LA. It seems that the inside diameter of half inch supply lines is less than the copper and therefore there is too much pressure in the lines and a fear that they could rupture."
Either you misunderstood or the inspector is an idiot.
The pressure inside the 1/2 pex is exactly the same as inside 1/2 copper or 3/4 copper or the 6" poly or steel street main, etc, etc, etc.
If the ID of the plex is smaller than the ID copper then the pressure DROP will be more when water is flowing. All that means is that you have slightly less flow. That will not cause any more chance for it to rupture. If that was the reason then they could just spec 3/4 (or 5/8 if these is any such) pex as the minimum size.
But being so "water conscies" in LA I am surprised that they don't require pex just to reduce water flow.
Somewhere (here?) I read someone postulate that most/many of the pex/poly failures have been in short 1-4' sections of pipe. Like pieces that had been maybe left over from another job, laying in the back of the plumber's truck, soaking up UV....
What type of PEX crimping tools do you sell?
WHW:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but CPVC is more a function of fire code as it off-gasses less chlorine in a dwelling fire than PVC, and the code is intended to protect firefighters.
And I agree with your recommendation of PEX.
BTW, I recently had to replace a toilet shutoff valve in FIL's house....Plumbing was CPVC right out to the valve and the pipe was unsecured in the wall in a fairly new tract home. What a PITA!
Copper is still popular out here in the PNW, but the ph (acidity) of rural well water is often low, so copper has a limited life expectancy.
You stumped me there. I am a Master Plumber and a former voluteer firefighter but I don't know the answer to that seemingly basic question. I'll ask around.
Not sure if this has come up in all the replies but, from what I understand, PVC cannot be used for hot water supply because it loses strength under higher temps. CPVC is rated at both cold and hot water temps.
Ya know, about 15 years ago I was given the explanation about CPVC/PVC being a fire safety issue and I took it as gospel then and assumed it to be the case ever since.
However, since making that post, I have asked around among the plumbing community and unanimously got the hot water explanation.
So I've been operating under misinformation all this time!
It makes sense about the hot water....I once built a steam box out of big PVC pipe and it nearly melted when charged with like 1 psi of steam.
This steam box issue came up in a thread awhile back with a few folks advocating PVC for steam boxes....since it didn't work for me, maybe they were using CPVC....but then, I've never seen it over 1" I.D. in size.
To balance the "con" PEX website I listed earlier, I'll post this "pro" PEX website - my own leaning is much more in this direction...
http://www.heatinghelp.com/newsletter.cfm?Id=18
COPPER!!!
Assuming you're talking about the PW system, and not the drains, Copper.
Sorry, Wethead & IMERC, but do you guys remember Poly-B? Bet me a case of 24 that PEX won't be discovered to have some fatal flaw 15 or 25 years from now. Yahoo! Class-Action City!
How many years have we been sweating copper? 50 to my personal knowledge and I know it's longer than that total.
Jenna--tell your guy to use type L; it's worth the difference in material cost if you've got "difficult" water.
DO NOT ALLOW HIM TO USE ANY GALVANIZED NIPPLES ANYWHERE!!!!
Have fun.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Hate to tell you this but your information is obsolete. Copper is failing all over the place. In places it never failed before. Going with L won't do anything but delay it a while longer. Find out the whole story on PEX. Study it's properties. Tour the factories. Ask the hard questions. Study it's history.
I have done all that. I base my recommendations on that. Nothing personal but it really peeves me to be contradicted by people who do not have the research and knowledge to back them up.
Again, nothing personal. I like you.
I have had copper pipes for 20 years in my current house. The tub water turns blue. Cheese on dishes sitting in water turns blue.
CPVC is nice stuff. If you have worries, use iron pipe sizes.
I have the same problem. The problem is acid water, not the pipes.
Pete
Wet Head, old valorous Warrior--
I like you too.
My point is based on a general philosophy which goes like this:
1. There is no good reason a well-built house shouldn't last a hundred years or more.
2. A product made from synthetic material--like PEX, or Poly-B or LSLs or whatever--which is developed and marketed within a few short years does not have a long enough track record for us to know what's going to happen to it down the road.
3. We as a society in general are now putting so much methyl-ethyl-badsh!t new chemical compounds into our air and water that it is virtually impossible, even for a manufacturer with the best of intentions and smartest of researchers, to predict what interactions may take place in X years with a product so complex that its very name is longer than an internet address.
4. As a responsible tradesman, I have to recommend to my customers stuff whose track record indicates that it has performed well in the past for the longest possible time.
Yeah, I've heard of copper failing in some applications. My plumbing sub, with whom I've worked for over 10 years, told me about a couple of isolated cases he'd run across. But--up to today, anyway; maybe you're gonna give me enough details to educate me otherwise--I am not aware of a generalized problem with copper of the same magnitude that was encountered with poly-B tubing. And I consider PEX too young right now to do anything else with it than stand back and watch.
If you've got details on generalized copper failure, I'd like to know what they are. What kind of water--private or municipal? Hard or soft? What additives?Were the pipes that failed used as part of the electrical grounding system? Was the installation correctly done in the first place? Did anybody add any galvanic elements to the system and change its properties? Is freeze and re-thaw an issue? What kind of solder was used? Blah, Blah, Blah....
I recognize that even something with a 50- or 75-year track record could go off because of something new we're obliging it to confront. But I believe its a safer bet to recommend simpler, non-synthetic materials when they've proved to work well over time--if only because predicting chemical reactions with 'natural' metals is a lot simpler.
Sorry if I bent the feathers on your bathing cap. Wasn't intentional.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
I'll get back to you with more. For now let me ask you... how many years do you need to see a track record before you feel comfortable with PEX? 20? 30? 40? 50?
I agree about the homes lasting 10 years plus. But the mechanical systems won't last that long. Copper for sure won't in most cases.
I hear first hand reports of copper failures all over the place. No good ansers yet. Nothing consistant about anything yet. It does seem most of it is on city water.
I'm 51 years old, and I figure if anything has been around as long as I have, it's paid its dues.
No, in reality, I'd say 30 to 40 years. For instance I don't have any problem at all with plywood; on the other hand whenever I use Aspenite ("Beaver Barf") for something, I worry some. I won't use it in a critically structural application.
Did you know that if you leave a pair of old Maine Hunting Shoes from LL Bean down in the basement near the oil burner that the ozone generated by the motor will degrade the natural rubber bottoms in a couple of years? LL Bean changed the formulation of the rubber bottom a number of years ago in response to that; it's now a mix of synthetic and natural rubber. This is true. See the book In search of LL Bean by M.R. Montgomery (Little Brown & Co.).
How do I or you know what's going to happen to the glue that holds the chips together in the Beaver Barf used in 'wood' I-beam floor trusses after thirty years of exposure to, for instance, the ozone generated by the motors in a basement?
I may be being silly; for all I know the glue in Aspenite is the same glue as used in plywood. Still, it strikes me that in ply, we at least have large amounts of mother nature's best glue holding the wood fibres together in each ply; in aspenite, if the glue fails, you've got buttkiss and a pile of chips.
I figure this way: always look to see how far down the downside is before you jump over the edge....Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
This website compares PEX to copper. It is in reference to radiant floor tubing, but I think most of it would apply to water supply also. It has many good examples of why copper is better than PEX:
http://www.radiantheat.net/tubing_main/
This website compares PEX to copper. It is in reference to radiant floor tubing, but I think most of it would apply to water supply also. It has many good examples of why copper is better than PEX:
http://www.radiantheat.net/tubing_main/
I couldn't 'a said it better myself--mainly because I didn't know a lot of that stuff. I operate on hunches, which is to say I firmly believe my belly button is smarter than my brain.
Seriously, good info on that site. ThanksDinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
You're welcome.
BRADLEPC has a large scale supply of micro dot. Yur in buisness.
WTF?
I am probably going with PEX in the cabin I am about to build, largely because it is supposed to be less susceptible to damage from freezing. However, for some cons on PEX, you may want to check out the somewhat negative view from the following web site:
http://www.plumbingworld.com/pex.html
Interesting. But full of faulty assumptions and errors starting with the second paragraph. Many of the reasons they hold against PEX are twisted... for instance, they raise questions over PEX because it may not hold up to freezing. Well duh! And they make a big issue about it not being exposed to sunlight for too long but sell CPVC which has the same issues.
To judge PEX by the failure of Polybutylene only shows your ignorance. To judge PEX by standards which your other pipe does not meet shows a closed mind. To judge PEX because you do not understand it shows fear. To make inaccurate statements about PEX shows you don't understand it.
There is only 1 issue where this guy is anywhere close on. And that is the question of chlorine. It is not breaking down ANY PEX tubing. Only partial PEX tubings made by one fly-by-night outfit that has long been out of business. There are other partial PEX tubings made yet. Radiantec sells a lot of it. That is one of the reasons I despise them so bad. Because their crap will give real PEX a bad name. Partial PEX is not approved for potable water by any of the major codes. Use at your own risk.
On all other issues he does not understand PEX, he admits he doesn't understand PEX, and he says he isn't interested in understanding PEX. So why would you give this guy any credibility? I sure wouldn't. If there is a case to be made against PEX then let it be made. But it will have to be made by someone who isn't ignorant on the subject like this guy admits he is. Doesn't know if one type is better than another? Sheesh.
What about the points that my offered website made: PEX repairs need access? Copper handles expansion and contraction and higher pressures better, copper is more fire and ultraviolet light resistant. How would the average homeowner fix a leaking PEX fitting? Call you and pay $150, that's how. Also cost; my old house was a 60's ranch that I replaced all the galvanized plumbing with copper for err...<$300. What would that cost for me to do it in PEX? Isn't the tooling required $500? The only tools I had to buy for the copper were a Bernzomatic, tubing cutter and copper pipe cleaning multi tool.
PEX repairs need access?
So does copper. Pretty stupid to use that as an arguement. Next.
Copper handles expansion and contraction and higher pressures better,
Totally false. Tell the truth or shut up. Next.
copper is more fire and ultraviolet light resistant.
This is true. Now if there is a fire bad enough to affect your water lines I can assure you that you will never care whether your water lines survived the fire or not. The fire resistance arguement is laughable for that very reason.
As for the UV resistance... why does that even matter? No material should be stored outside unprotected. Besides, all the PEX I use is UV resistant.
Where this arguement has a valid point is in this... PEX is less forgiving of careless handling than copper in some ways. If you are a careless plumber or homeowner than I suggest you not use PEX or STOP being careless. Your choice.
How would the average homeowner fix a leaking PEX fitting? Call you and pay $150, that's how.
You formed your opinion without waiting for an answer. Therefore I will not answer your question. All I will say is that nearly all PEX products on the market can be repaired with readily available parts by any competant HO. But you ain't gona be the one to find that out because you already made up your mind.
Also cost; my old house was a 60's ranch that I replaced all the galvanized plumbing with copper for err...<$300. What would that cost for me to do it in PEX? Isn't the tooling required $500? The only tools I had to buy for the copper were a Bernzomatic, tubing cutter and copper pipe cleaning multi tool.
You can rent the tools in many areas. Materials cost nearly the same or less. Installation is faster. You have a cleaner system. PEX is not for every application. If you don't have access to the tools then do it in copper. But just because your time is not counted in a cost analysis doesn't prove a thing. My time is. At a nearly 3 figure hourly rate. But I would pay MORE for PEX to have the advantages it offers. The cost of the tools is a drawback to the DIYer. So what. Do it in copper. But that arguement is meaningless to a pro. And a DIYers can usually purchase a tool to crimp 1/2" and 3/4" PEXb for less than a hundred bucks if they need to.
Hey man, I'm not arguing anything about the quality! I was responding with that websites arguments and asking you your opinion of them. Why don't you take a pill and relax instead biting our heads off? The only argument I have presented is the economics of it for a HO, and you don't have a good response for that one except "attitude". It's cheaper for a DIY to use copper. Period.
Sorry. In my mind I was responding to the website for the bulk of my reply. I apologize that it seemed personal.
As for the part that was personal I did respond with constructive ideas. I did show some "attitude". Woder why? You reckon it may have been because you did not ask the questions in order to learn? You reckon it may have been because you already had your mind made up? Come on!
I have very little patience for self-appointed experts with no qualifications on the subject at hand taking potshots like you did. I'll take a chill pill but only after I stuff one down your throat! (That was a joke. You can laugh now. LOL)
The only argument I have presented is the economics of it for a HO, and you don't have a good response for that one except "attitude".
Totally incorrect sir. I did present ways for PEX to be more economical for a DIYer than copper. I also left it open that copper may be the better choice. Just WHO has a chip on their shoulder here? Jeez! Chill dude!
It's cheaper for a DIY to use copper. Period.
Wrong. You are not even qualified to make this statement. And it is dead wrong. Go back to my last post and you will see where I said it can be the best option economically.
Just chill pal. There is nothing to be gained by fighting here. I called the BS. if you can't handle that then either back up your claims with hard facts or leave it alone. Life is too short.
"Wrong. You are not even qualified to make this statement. And it is dead wrong. Go back to my last post and you will see where I said it can be the best option economically. "
How can you say that to me? I'm plenty qualified since I've done the cost comparison already. I told you I did the entire house for <$300 with copper. My tooling was only $35, it'd cost me twice that to rent the tools needed to use PEX. I played this game 3 years ago and I recall in the end a PEX install would be at least $140 more than using copper if I did it myself. There is a savings if I'd pay someone else to do it obviously because of the less labor.
A plumbing company wanted $2,200 to do it in copper, $1,900 for PEX...I did it in copper for <$300, and yes, before you blindly attack me again it's done right.
Now, if a PEX fitting was leaking at an easily accessible joint, what would you charge the HO to fix it?
You base your arguement on 1 job. That does not mean anything except that for your job copper was cheaper. That is all. And I did say that in some cases that may be the best way to go. You on the other hand made a blanket statement that is often proven to be wrong.
As to your last question... I fail to see where that has anything to do with this discussion. I never questioned the price of the repair you mentioned. That never was the issue. The issue was whether a HO could easily and cheaply repair it themselves and the answer was YES.
Hey Bob Walker...oh I mean WHW...the issue here all along was pros and cons to the PEX or copper choice. I am pointing out valid economic reasons why copper is better and you're tip toeing around trying with every bit of your effort not to say "holy sh!t you're right, PEX does have a con!"
Given the same joint and location as each other, which would be cheaper to repair, either by a plumber or HO, PEX or copper?
Given the same exact house, which would be cheaper for a DIY to install, PEX or copper?
Hey Bob Walker...oh I mean WHW...the issue here all along was pros and cons to the PEX or copper choice. I am pointing out valid economic reasons why copper is better and you're tip toeing around trying with every bit of your effort not to say "holy sh!t you're right, PEX does have a con!"
I am not afraid of PEX's weak points. I simply demand honesty when they are presented.
I have repeatedly stated that in some cases copper may be the material of choice.
It is fast becoming obvious you are simply trying to argue instead of learn. Insults help no one. What is your point? That you know more about this subject than I do? If so give it up. Life is too short to beat your head against a wall.
Given the same joint and location as each other, which would be cheaper to repair, either by a plumber or HO, PEX or copper?
There is no way to answer that question with the information given. There are too many variables. Is the location a tight one? Is the water seeping back? How much is the HO's time worth? How much is the plumber charging per hour? All of these affect the answer. But unless the HO's time is worthless then generally PEX will be the cheapest to repair.
If your question could be answered I would be happy to do it.
In terms of the raw parts then copper most likely would be a bit cheaper. But to only look at that aspect of the cost shows a truly ignorant mind.
Given the same exact house, which would be cheaper for a DIY to install, PEX or copper?
Again there is no way that question can be answered with just that information. In general though, I see the materials for PEX costing a little less than copper (remember, copper prices are vastly different than they were 3 years ago and PEX has come down in price). By the time you buy your tools they will be nearly the same price for an average 2 bathroom house. I price this stuff all the time so I am not just ignorantly guessing.
Now all you have left is the value of your time. My time is valuable no matter if I am working or not. If your time is worthless and you are not taking time off from work than time may not be an issue to you. It is to most people.
Let me say this one more time. Copper may be the best choice in some cases. I have said that all along.
Chill dude.
"In general though, I see the materials for PEX costing a little less than copper (remember, copper prices are vastly different than they were 3 years ago and PEX has come down in price). By the time you buy your tools they will be nearly the same price for an average 2 bathroom house. I price this stuff all the time so I am not just ignorantly guessing."
WHW you're a weasely punk! I think you got me convinced! If that's true about the prices, (and I know it is about the copper) then you've taken out the last con that I can think of. I also found out that PEX has been used for almost 60 years in Europe...is that true? If so, I'm a born again PEX man!
Next you'll have me arguing copper is better if you keep this up! LOL
Each has it's place.
Bahahaha! Sorry about the Bob W. name calling. If we ever meet, you can kick me in the balls for payback.
No hugs please.
all's cool and thanks!
Question? I e-mailed you and publically asked you if we can do this in a nice manner without the animosity. Your last post seemed to have ignored that. (When you started making accusations) Was that your answer? Or did you not get my e-mail yet? We can do this in a nice manner or I am out of here. Your choice.
Edited 6/11/2003 1:02:53 PM ET by Wet Head Warrior
wait... wait... stop the presses!
I thought you were the one who supplied the website address for Plumbingsupply.com.
Now I see you posted a different website!
My arguements were correct but were not made in the context of the whole story. I will read the website you supplied and respond accordingly.
I call for a truce until then. OK?
Here is a copy of the e-mail I just sent this gentleman...
Sir,
I read your website this evening. May I suggest you rethink your stance against PEX? I see your stance as flawed for the following reasons.
It seems you do not understand PEX and are fearful of it.
You are taking quotes out of context and making something out of them that they do not mean.
You are judging PEX by your observation of PB. They are 2 completely different materials.
You hold them to standards that CPVC could never meet but yet you sell CPVC.
There are a number of completely inaccurate statements on your web page reguarding PEX. This would seem to indicate you are making your judgements from faulty information or a faulty understanding of information.
I hope I am not coming down on you to hard. I am willing to hear good reasons not to use PEX (if there are any) but your website failed to show any.
I would be happy to assist you in any manner possible to improve your understanding of PEX, etc. You will find me very reasonable and helpful as long as I am working with someone who simply wants to know and discover the whole story.
I am just a plumber who is concerned that the misinformation you present could influence plumbing consumers around the country without merit. If you have legitimate complaints against PEX then by all means post them. I am not here to blindly defend or promote PEX.
Thank you for your time.
Richard Miller, LMP
(Licensed Master Plumber)
FYI, much of what is posted there as fact is proven to be wrong. Be aware!
read this before you believe everything there...
http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&Thread_ID=7721&mc=4#Message44786
Wethead--
I sent you a long e-mail. Read it, then post it here in my name if you want to. I leave it up to you, bro.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Hey pal, I don't know if I should or not. It was not offensive in the least bit to me. I was proud you wrote it. I also have no problem with it being on this forum. I am not sure if you want it here or are just saying if I am mad and want to expose you (for what I wouldn't know) that I can post it.
Bottom line... your e-mail was good. If you want it here I will post it. Or you can. If you post it put my responding e-mail with it if you wuld please. I think we will both look better for it!
Have a beautiful evening!
No, dude--All I was doing was giving you the option, in case I said something you'd have preferred kept private.
Anyway, go ahead and post it--I don't have a copy of it; Prospero doesn't save it on my mail manager when I use their automatic e-mail function.
Glad you still love me.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
This message is in reply to your message "Copper vs. PVC" in the Breaktime forum. ====================Text of Reply============================ALRIGHT, ALREADY!!That's enough. Since I seem to have started us veering off into invective by offering to bet you a case of 24, I will try to write -30- to it now.Look, WH, in my applications, it doesn't make sense for me to use PEX, and I'm the original 'I don't care what it costs as long as it's done right' guy. So cost is not a factor. I routinely recommend to customers materials and methods of installation that cost more than some cheap modern substitute, justifying it with the old caveat, You Get What You Pay For.THIS IS NOT TO SAY that a job done in PEX wouldn't be done 'right' just because it was done in PEX. It is to say that since I have a one hundred percent perfect personal record installing copper, it will take a good deal of observation over a long period of time of any new technology to convince me to change my ways. In addition to believing in YGWYPF, I also believe in IIABDFI (If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It).I fully understand your frustration. When I know something, I get bent real easy when the idiots around me can't see it as clearly as I do. What's the heck's their problem?? I mutter to myself. You, apparently, have made a substantial investment in studying PEX, and that's to be admired. If I did nothing but plumbing I hope I would be responsible enough to invest the same effort as you have. But I don't do nothing but plumbing. I do everything. If I were to study in depth every single new technology that comes down the building materials turnpike, I'd spend my life doing nothing but that and I'd wind up with a forehead bigger than a Klingon. Plus one hell of a headache. I can't afford to do that.Instead, I go by my admittedly conservative philosophy of waiting and observing new materials to see personally how they perform in the context of the kind of work I do in the area in which I do it. I don't think that's unreasonable by anybody's definition.It's obvious that each of the various websites that have been posted in this thread has its own particular axe to grind. An intelligent man (and I like to think I am one) will be aware of that and determine to the best of his ability what's fact and what's wishful thinking in what he's reading. In the present case, I've learned a lot more technical info about PEX than I ever would have bothered to search out on my own, for reasons stated above--and there's nothing wrong with that because if I was too busy to do so, I'd be in my shop or up on a roof somewhere instead of sitting in front of this danged computer running off at the virtual mouth.As I said, I understand your frustration. But it looks like a few too many of us pushed a few too many of your buttons, and at this point the conversation has passed the point of being 'lively.' So let's all chill out, and kick back with a cold one out of that case of 24 I originally offered to bet you. Since it's a virtual case in any event, I'll virtually pay for it. Santé, les gars! Dinosaur'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Here's a message Wet Head e-mailed me in response to one I sent him, which he posted as 31537.64. He asked me to post this.
heyyyyy! all is cool. it got tense for a bit but it all turned out OK. I> respect your view. you are not lying like the one website was. that is> all I ask. I feel PEX has passed the test of time enough to feel> comfortable with it and you don't. nothing wrong with that.> > for the record the plumbingsupply.com guy is a decent guy and we have been> communicating. I will be sending him any documentation I can find of the> inaccuracies on his website and he will be reviewing them. He still may not> sell it but seems to desire to present an accurate picture. Our> correspondance has been uplifting and professional on all sides. It is a> treat to deal with him in this manner!> > Relax bro... all is cool on my part!> > WHW> Mine, too, Wet Head. Now let's all have that beer.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
now I guess I have to tell you... i don't drink beer. But you drink yours and I'll sip on my Peach Tea and the world is good.
Yup.
But I gotta figure, after all this Jenna (remember her? She started this thread before we hijacked it) is probably gonna dig a well for that new place she's building and hang a bucket down it on a rope.
G'nite, bro--my kid's pet mouse just escaped from its cage for the third time in 45 minutes, and I gotta go figure out what I'm going to keep him in till the bloody pet shop opens in the morning. LOL & WTF.
Enjoy your Peach Tea.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
I skimmed this page. There are many outright falsehoods as well as many seeming misunderstanding there. If you want an honest discussion I will be happy to discuss each point they are wrong in as well as the ones where I have an opposing opinion. But lay the chip on your shoulder down and I'll do the same. Deal?