*
I’m new to this site (just 2 weeks) but I really appreciate all of the great info I’ve come across. The problem is, I do alot of ornamental copperwork, and wonder if this is the site to pose this type of question. Sorry for taking up board space but here goes.
I have to build a triangular copper fountain liner for a right, isosceles 25-25-38 foot fountain and wonder if anyone here has ever heard of such a thing and how was it put together.
Tight lines, good port
Terry
Replies
*
lock seams and solder-the only way
*Thom How long do you think this would last in ColoradoAny idea on light and plumbing penetrationsWould you be confident in the vertical joints?i I built a much smaller version with 1/8" copper plate, welded together. It was 10 x 10 feet 2 feet tall. Has held up great for 3 years. Imput pleaseTerry
*Toss some limestone in (in whatever artistic form) as a buffer for acid rain, fish pee, or any other proton source. 1/8" sounds like overkill. I'm sure it worked fine, but soldered, locking seams far easier. Mobilize an 8-foot brake to the site or preform the pieces in a shop and transport for on-site assembly.Plumbing penetration seem easy. I can think of some brass bits (from di-electric unions for instance) that are copper sweat or pipe thread on one side and have a nice flat area on the other side. Sand, flux, heat, apply solder - just like the rest of it.Tank adaptors are an easy alternative. Harrington Plastics has them in PVC. PVC spigot or thread on the back side. The screw together and compress a gasket against the flat surface of a tank. They even work on slightly rounded tanks. Easy in this appication.What about those lights for swimming pools? Readily available and can't be too expensive. Some good two-part epoxy (System 3 or West Systems) and the housing would water-tight to the copper. Those epoxies are used (by me and many others) for boat building. I trust them. -David
*I have three concerns with flat locked soldered seams.1) Customer doesn't want visible joints2) I'm not that confident in the vertical joints3) If you build it in place how do you test for leaks, find them and fix them.My problem with doing this size liner using 1/8" welded plate is expansion. The good thing is I can water test it before installation. What are your thoughts on expansion? Any other ideas?
*Terry, I've never done anything nearly as large as you propose, but I know on a smaller scale copper moves a lot. Chimney counterflashing will be flat in the morning, but bowed in the midday sun. Copper valleys are not supposed to be nailed directly, rather the edges crimped and nailed through "buttons" or tabs to allow for movement. Trying to solder two small flat pieces of copper together, if not very securely clamped, results in bowed metal and failed joints. Flat locking seams, I would think, would be visually unobtrusive and allows the joints to be easily soldered. But like I said, I'm no expert.
*Copper and solder have different expansion rates.Each individual piece of copper should not be more than 14 sq.ft. Max. Provision for expansion MUST be made. Sounds like your proposed soldered joints will fail. Consult the Copper Developement Association ( England) for more info 'cause they are pretty adamant about design shortcomings with this material.A brazed joint will be a different matter entirely.
*Has anyone ever brazed or welded copper (on this scale)? I just think it's crucial to water test and minimize visible seams. I'm just wondering if a liner this size will stay together with the force of expansion.
*Terry: If you go with weleded 1/8" plate, can you incorporate a rectangular channel as an aesthetic element? Functionally, I'm thinking of the expansion joints that oil refineries have in their pipe runs. 12" pipes, for instance, may jog 10 feet laterally and then jog back. The resulting section can hinges a bit to take up temperature-driven expansion. They can have 400F asphalt at one time at -40F with idle. You don't need nearly that range so two box channels of a few inches dimension that cross in the middle would allow for both expansion and contraction. -David
*David You see what I'm up against with this.I know the old lock seam and solder method. I'm just trying to think outside the box on this one. You're expansion joint is the kind of idea I'm looking for I just hope someone has first hand experience to share. ThanksTerry
*
I'm new to this site (just 2 weeks) but I really appreciate all of the great info I've come across. The problem is, I do alot of ornamental copperwork, and wonder if this is the site to pose this type of question. Sorry for taking up board space but here goes.
I have to build a triangular copper fountain liner for a right, isosceles 25-25-38 foot fountain and wonder if anyone here has ever heard of such a thing and how was it put together.
Tight lines, good port
Terry