There was an article in FH about how big to make a cornice return in relation to the rest of the house and roof. Does anyone remember this article or have any suggestions on how long the return should be? I can’t find the article. The returns are for a 7 pitch gable dormer coming off a gable end wall with a 12 pitch roof. TIA for any help
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Greetings House,
This post, in response to your question, will bump the thread through the 'recent discussion' listing again which will increase it's viewing.
Perhaps it will catch someone's attention that can help you with advice.
Cheers
Parolee # 53804
Rez you been hanging around this fine institution for at least as long as I have...
one would think that by now you would have learnt enuf to answer some of these queries instead of doing the bump...
;)I don't Know what I am doing
But
I am VERY good at it!!
nah, sometimes my retainer ain't so good so I like to re-evalue my original notes by seeing it run thru again.
And you guys thought the 'bump' was just 'cause I'm I'm such a nice guy.
be one in every crowd
"I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived."
Parolee # 53804
I posted one of those cornice return question threads awhile ago, got some great advice and pictures from some of the guys on this board. Here is a link is anyone is interested.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?msg=88325.1
be knowing all the answers, just not able to recall.....CRS Sucks!I don't Know what I am doing
But
I am VERY good at it!!
Can't Really Say
"I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived."
Parolee # 53804
There was a discussion on sizing returns on this board within the last month or so. The search engine isn't always that great, but perhaps you could find something.
I wrote an article a couple of years ago, a Drawing Board piece actually--an overview of a few different styles of return and some general proportion guidelines.
For a Greek-Revival style return, the corner board should balance the eave overhang on one side and the return on the other side:
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In your case though it would really depend on a couple of things: What is the detail on the main roof, and is the dormer big enough to support cornice returns? Small dormers usually look better without returns. If you post a photo of your house it would be easier to help you.
More often than not, I see the return drawn more like your center diagram labeled "return unbalanced". I usually see them drawn pulled back in just far enough to catch the typical 1x8 cornerboard.
EDIT: Or in the case of a Queen Anne (hipped roofed return) I pull the return far enough back so that the top of the hip hits the "short point" of the level cut on the frieze under the rake.
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Edited 4/13/2007 8:32 pm ET by dieselpig
Like this
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Yes, just like that. However sometimes they can become quite unbalanced toward the "inboard" side if the rake trim + the frieze build out gets really deep. I've had them where I had 12" out and 36" in just to get that hip to frieze detail to work.
If they get real big like that, I'll often change tacts and frame them so that the TOP of the frieze catches that same hip-point and become the "short point" of the cut on that end of the board.... basically following the slope of the little return's roof. And then I can reduce the length of the return by the depth or run of the return's overhang.
Clear as mud, right? :)View Image
I get ya. That's probably what I'd do too. Not every house has the ideal setup for "balanced" returns.
I thought this was pretty cool discussion. I'm surprised the thread isn't getting more traffic. Seems as though once every month or so someone comes along and wants to know how to build a decent cornice return. And IMO, a decent looking return can really add a lot of curb appeal to a house. It's one of those details that most H/O's don't know to look for specifically but it's one of those things that make them say "I'm not sure why, but this house looks so much nicer than that house."View Image
It's one of those details that most H/O's don't know to look for specifically but it's one of those things that make them say "I'm not sure why, but this house looks so much nicer than that house."
That was pretty much the basis of my article, and the other articles in JLC and FHB since then. Everywhere you look all you see is porkchops. The roof creates a sense of shelter and carries a lot of visual weight--you want to see the roof properly supported. Plus it shows a bit of craftsmanship.
BTW, I bet most framers don't think about those kinds of details as much as you do...cool....
Another topic I'd like to see addressed is scaling back the roof-line trim on dormers and such. I often see the same sizes and dimensions that are used on the main body of the house repeated on the smaller roofs covering dormers and what-not. I like to see the same detail as the main used.... but rather a scaled back version.
Nothing worse than a little dormer whose returns practically run back into each other!View Image
Yup--
When you're worried about the frieze board dying onto the return at all you know something's wrong. I like to eliminate the returns on shed roofed dormers and sometimes on doghouse dormers, dependiing on the size.
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These are good drawings. Would you mind if I saved them and printed them to use to give a visual to GC's and H/O's when making alternative suggestions?View Image
Thanks, go ahead and use them. I've got a few more along the same lines if you're interested.
Looking through my files, I see some variations. For what they're worth, here are a few other examples:
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View ImageView Image
And, from the rear of my own house (the front has a fully-enclosed tympanum):
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Allen
Very nice. Thanks much.View Image
wood.... your "poorman's crown" looks like a 1x with a bevel on the bottom
never heard the term or seen it before
what's up wit dat ?
hey , both of you.. i wanna know other opinions about "shingled arches"
gene started a discussion called "shingling to the curve"
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=88562.1
feel free to jump in
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 4/15/2007 6:08 pm ET by MikeSmith
Mike, up here in Maine that crown detail is pretty common, especially on houses from around 1800. I learned the term "poor man's crown" from my current boss; I'm sure there are other terms.
We use it a lot for Greek Revival style trim--we can make it out of stock Azek, it has a classic yet contemporary look, and we can wrap it around corners with plumb fascias without too many tricks. Just sizing it down 3/8" or so and changing the spring angle from 40° to 30° as it goes from the eave to the rake makes it look right.
I've been following Gene's thread. I had found a few HH Richardson arches I was going to post but something came up and I haven't gotten back to it yet.
My observation is that the typical Greek Revival return length is determined by the depth of the combined frieze and architrave.
A vertical line drawn down from the intersection of the cornice return and the gable architrave is the terminus of the frieze/architrave return.
The cornice then projects past this line, equal to its projection outward.
Here's an example on a mid-19th century cobblestone schoolhouse:
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Allen
A vertical line drawn down from the intersection of the cornice return and the gable architrave is the terminus of the frieze/architrave return.
I would agree with that, but there is some artistic license involved.
On greek temples the entablature ran all the way across the building, and the roof sat on columns. http://tinyurl.com/2by42o The idea of cutting the entablature off and using small corner boards is a modern concept, so there are no hard and fast rules that I know of.
To my eye, the pictures you posted all have corner boards that are too small. There is nothing wrong with the returns, but I think it would look more "temple-like" if the corner boards were wide enough to let the cornice return look like it's balanced.
You can vary the size of the frieze until it looks right with the corner board. For example, in the schoolhouse picture you posted, which has a very "heavy" or tall entablature, you would want a wide "column" or corner board. The quoins they used have the effect of a column or corner board but to me they should be bigger to carry the visual weight of the roof trim. That said, I love vernacular architecture BECAUSE so much of it breaks the rules, and in so doing sometimes creates art.
One thing that throws this rule off is roof pitch. Temples had fairly flat pitches. I'm building a gambrel house now with a lower pitch of 25.5/12. To follow your rule the frieze would have to be rediculously wide, or the return would have to be very short. In the end what looked right was to eliminate the frieze altogether. Again, this is an art, not a science.
woodguy
Excellent drawings and discussion. Thanks
I'm going to throw this in: the returns were sized to make the hips end in the angle between the soffit and the flat rake moulding at the top of the wall. I modelled this off an old house I saw from the balcony of the theatre bar in Chester NS, so it's got history. I like the way it looks.
Ron
Picture:
I like the way it looks.
And that's the most important thing! I like it too. Looks English cottagy.
Woodguy, I agree with everything you said. Excellent points, all!
Allen
Make the returned fascia 36" wide and it'll work fine.
We've done thousands like this with those roof lines.
Typically, we scale the drawing but most of the time they scale to 36".
blue
"...
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From the best of TauntonU.
This is a really good thread. In reply to the original poster, as if he really needs it with all the drawings from Woodguy99, I think the article that you are thinking of was by John Spier in the back of a fairly recent issue under the 'Master Carpenter' or 'Master Craftsman' section heading. Not really sure about what the section is called though.
Woodguy, thanks for sharing those drawings.