Hello – I’m hoping to get some input concerning the cost of architect’s drawings for an addition i am considering. The project is a 700 sq foot, two story add on, 350 feet per floor, over a crawl space or basement. ORiginal house was built in 1920 and located in NE OKlahoma. The architect (actually a draftsman since he not a licensed architect) wants $3800 for the drawings and another $2000 for “consultants” on the foundation, HVAC, plumbing and electrical. Does that seem reasonable? An alternative would be to pay a general contractor a $2500 “design consulting” fee, which i would get back if i have them do the job. However, this wouldn’t buy me drawings i could take elsewhere for bidding.
What do you think?
Replies
whats your budget?
a licensed architect will run you a 10% of the project costs.
i don't know if i would drop nearly 6 grand on a draftsman
Well, i don't really have a budget yet. I guess i am waiting to see how scary the estimates are first. The first floor of the add on is kitchen / living space, while the second floor will have washer / dryer hook up (to get it out of the basement). The design build guy tells me $140 a foot is pretty standard or about $100,000 for 700 sq feet. I was hoping to do some of the work myself and of course save some of the cost. I want a contractor who is flexible enough to alllow that.
thanks for the comments
In OKlahoma 6-7% more likely
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Try to find a design / build contractor.
We design / build and charge $2.00 - $5.00 per SF for additions, and this includes spec writing and consultation.
We sometimes discount the design work if we close on a Contract to Build. Aside from this, a good desing / build contractor will know (best) what are user friendly methods in your area.
Your city may require that the foundation, elect, plbg be designed by a professional. If so, I would agree to paying the actual cost plus a small markup. Some elect and mechanical contractors have the ability to do the designs in-house, which might be less expensive.
$5 and a half per foot plus engineering seems high, especially for a non-architect.
If you have found a contractor who you like, and has good references, that miught be the way to go.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
10% if also doing CA. 7% is the general trend. Often are people doing smaller projects like this on the side from their regular jobs, so it can get lower.
All depends on the situation. What you want, the condition of the existing building, etc.. There's the argument that having the same source do the drawings and construction creates an incentive for shenanigans. The AIA actually discouraged design/build partnerships for architects until the mid '80's for that reason.
That thinking has since been reversed (thankfully), and many builders offer good services for both. With limited understanding of your project on my part, a builder may be the cheaper way to go (one-stop-shop), but ask to see some examples of their work before proceeding. Of course, the same applies for an architect.
p.s.: somebody mentioned something about foundations. Here, any basement requires an engineer's or architect's stamp. But if the builder is a member of the BIA (?), the organization can take care of that requirement.
I think, in Massachusetts anyway (which tends to be strict) in most jurisdictions you can get away with having an "unlicenced architect" design a structure of less than 35000 cubic feet in volume. Bottom line is ask more questions like exactly what drawings they will provide, i.e. foundation plan, cross sections structural details, etc. You should ask to view a sample set of "construction documents" for a project that is similar in scope to your own. Architectural fees are hard to compare one to another because what you are getting can vary considerably. You should also ask to have some referrals of satisfied past clients of theirs, again with projects similar to yours in scope.
The actual design fee, to me sounds very reasonable (again Im thinking in terms of the Massachusetts region. The thing that strikes me however is the ratio of the fees for the consultants when compared to the architectual fee seems off. It seems like the consultants fees are too high. I think the draftsman may be covering his butt a bit too much because he is unlicenced, but I could be wrong.
Just be sure to check what you are getting and check references like I mentioned and then you can make an informed decision. I have seen unlicenced home designers give out some of the best sets of home plans I have ever seen. And I have seen absolute garbage from some real architects.
Nebraska, drafting firm, you can get a set of prints, one time shot, for about $2 a foot, based on your sketch / interview, etc. Changes, additions, deletions all billed at an hourly, which tends towards $45 per. That's the low end of the price spectrum, and most are closer to $3.
Engineering fees are extra and as required.
Architect, range, design house and provide plans, 8-10% of project cost, to have them also involved in the project and see it to completion, which would include site visits, some oversight / problem solving with the GC and or trades, and revision drawings as necessary can go as much as 20% of project cost. Bear in mind at that level, you pretty much can expect an interior elevation drawing for every wall of every room showing trim, electrical, HVAC, etc.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
The real costs don't show up until what was drawn doesn't work... :)
A pretty simple way to get the answer you want is to ask this guy to spell out exactly what he is going to provide for this price. Once you have a scope of work and a quote, ask someone else what they would charge for the same thing.
BTW, it is important to understand that it is very difficult for a designer or architect to look into their crystal ball and imagine what it is going to be like working with a particular homeowner. It would be ideal if you could find a designer/architect who you really, really trusted and ask them to work hourly.
Whoever you work with, get a schedule from them and get a clause in the contract to design the structure in accordance with all applicable building codes.
Advocate
all well and good, advocate.. but it assumes that all things are equal..
if you asked me to spell out exactly what i was going to do for you for design work.. and then you took that scope to another designer... suppose he quoted EXACTLY the same price ?
would you get the same work product ?... would you get the same design ?
of course not...
you might get 4 pages of design from both.. but they wouldn't be the same
as to the original question.. the price quoted seems in line
ask to see his portfolio... and similar projects of similar value.. then you can always check referencesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You may have misunderstood; when I suggested finding out exactly what the 1st guy proposed, I meant the scope of work, not what the design would be.
It is absolutey correct to have a designer spell out his scope; I help people hire architects all the time; what one guy is used to doing can often be quite different from the next.
I see many instances of homeowners trying to get competative bids with plans that are only complete enough to get a permit. Of course they end up comparing apples to oranges because contractors made assumptions that were quite different.
Even if the author of this thread doesn't get a second quote, he should still have the designer spell out exactly what he is going to do; that's just good business.
Advocate
getting
spoken like an advocate.. i feel like i'm sitting across the conference table....
not to mock , either..
i'm sure you protect your clients... absolutely... get a defined scope of work
but we're talking about 2 different things..
1st is getting a set of prints and specs complete enough to get "competitve "bids on..
again.. i say " no such thing "
give me a set of plans and specs .. and give two of my comparable competitors the same specs.. you will get 3 prices on three different jobs
same thing is true of hiring a designer.....
hah.. same thing is true of hiring an attorney... suppose i wrote up very detailed spec of what i want my attorney to do for a particular real estate development..
i get three proposals... three different pay scales... are they all going to deliver the same representation ? will they involve the same amount of staff ?
no.. no... and no
you can prevent "loss" but you can't ensure success.. the child is the father of the man.... best to check references from knowledgeable sources.. or
base your decision on how you judge the person
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 12/9/2005 9:17 pm ET by MikeSmith
I hafta ask this. What if the plans and specs detail everything out, down to the doorknobs and light bulbs? Species, grade, molding pattern number, window brand, yadda, yadda, yadda.
How are you going to get three different quotes for three different jobs? They don't build high schools or office buildings like that, do they? What if the job is as tightly designed, specified, and detailed as a commercial job?
nope... three different builders.. three different jobs.. don't care how detailed the spec is.. how many variables are there that are not detailed ?
level of experience.... level of care... different field conditions..
different mind set
same plans & specsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I agree; it's an inexact profession, as are many. But you have to try.
You can't really be suggesting that this homeowner not attempt to define the scope of work that goes with the price? Are you suggesting that he decide whether the price is appropriate just because "it sounds reasonable"?
Would you go to a mechanic and pay him $500 for a tune-up without asking what's included, and without making some effort to find out what other mechanics charge for tune-ups?
Advocate
i am indeed suggesting just that..
i deal in realtionships.. i take my trucks & car to the same garage with the same people i've dealt with for 20 years..
say ... fix it..
i've already said i agree on defining the scope..
how do your clients choose you ?..
how would you choose a contractor.... lemme ask you this one : if you hired a contractor, who would write the contract ?..
if i'm dealing with a lawyer, i have to trust him.. no way am i going to beat him in court. so ....
anyways... my belief is that design is the most important part of the process.. it is one leg of the triangle.. the other two being the builder... and the owner.. those three things determine the outcome of the project...
a good design is the starting point... good building cannot overcome bad design...
but a good builder.. working with a good design... with a good owner ( involved and a realistic budget ) will result in a good outcomeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Agreed; relationships, trust and respect are key to how we do business. And, as I said, if you could find a competent designer that you really, really trust, then you could just pay by the hour and you should be fine.
But for the average homeowner who doesn't know this business, they probably won't be in a position to have a relationship. We are then back to some basic smart- consumer principles I described before regarding the tune-up. Those of us who are in this business have to work extra hard to understand what it is like for the average homeowner to be in this "strange new world."
All of us need to remember how this thread started; a question about price. What the thread author needs to know is that no one should even be asked for a price until their ability has been thoroughly checked-out.
counselor... another good point..
since price is meaningless without knowing what one is getting for that price.. then the average comsumer of our services shouldn't ask for a price unless he intends to hire us
the old saw about getting 3 prices doesn't always tell the consumer anything..
prices from 2 contractors / designers / lawyers that you wouldn't really hire anyways are not the most helpful thing in evaluating the price of the person you really want to hire
the consumer has to educate themselves if they want to make a satisfying purchase...
wether it's buying a sack of potatoes, a car, a house ,or legal services....
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
thanks everyone for your comments. It appears that what my drafterperson wants to charge (by the way at $45 per hour) is not unreasonable. several of the comments mentioned "relationships" and while it is impossible to say you have a relationship after meeting with someone one time, the draftsman has 30+ years of experience, and i have seen some of his work, and i think i can trust him.
You might want to ask the contractors on his last 3 or 4 jobs what they thought of his plans.
Advocate
Any idea how many sheets will be in the drawing package? One way to look at it is if there are going to be (for instance) ten sheets, and it takes him 4 hours to draw each one, there's 40 hours of labor right there, times whatever his hourly rate is. Add in time for meetings, producing specifications, coordination with contractors, etc., etc.
Also, if he's not an architect make sure he's not representing himself as one by signing the drawings as the architect, etc. The state architectural board gets pretty excited about that sort of thing.
For the small firm I was most recently with, in a 'smaller town', 7'ish' percent was what we were pretty much on track with, given the type and level of construction and the clients desired level of our involvement.
That being said, we billed hourly, but knew up front, upon plugging in certain variables, the consistency of that percentage.
The reason for the hourly billing was, it was not unheard of to make it a good portion of the way through the working drawings and have the client decide they wanted their proposed home to be two stories rather than one and by the way forget the mission bungalow instead how about a palladian villa.
Maybe not that extreme, but hard to revise on a predermined price.
Anyway, that percentage could be a couple grand more than your guy estimated assuming a 100K project value , but that would also be for an Architect not designer.
As far as whether to spend that, there are any number of things to consider, most importantly the competency of the person doing/overseeing the drawings. I would take a good set of conscientious builder plans over an ill-concieved set of Architect plans chock full of extraneous inapplicable C.Y.A notes any day.
That being said, spending what seems like a considerable amount up front for a good designer or Architect can be so worthwhile down the line when you realize how their training and experience in thinking through hopefully the majority of aspects as to how you will use your space begins to benefit you and (to make this an even longer run-on) not necessarily what happened to be the most economical/conventional way to 'frame that up'.
Also, it's not unheard of that spending some additional money up front couldn't in fact end up saving you potentially even more later by eliminating costly change orders, etc.
As far as a designer vs. an Architect the way I understand my states guidelines a designer can submit plans for any size residential project without a stamp. They do however need an Engineer or Architect to submit wet-stamped calculations. The thing is, many an Architect will be going to an Engineer at least for their lateral analysis (if required given your location) if their design cannot be made to meet the prescriptive requirements of the code.
The enginner will then quite possibly also want to look at the vertical loads before he wet-stamps it and then you have just eliminated the need for that Architect's stamp. (Again, not to say there isn't enormous value attached the wisdom an Architect can bring). That's at least what I've experienced.
Lastly, at least in our local building department, they have some clearly spelled out prescriptive guidelines for many things, like foundations, which you may also have available through your building department, which perhaps in tweaking your design a bit to meet may save you quite a few dollars on additional 'consultants'.
Whew....hope all that helped?...all those spaces really stretched that out ;)
Edited 12/10/2005 12:08 am ET by erick
Erik, Erik, Erick. There's a key on the right side of the keyboard, labeled "Enter". You ought to try using it once in a while. Makes reading your post much, much easier.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Good point,
sorry,
I'm new
to this......
Edited 12/9/2005 11:56 pm ET by erick
My 2 cents:
I've just built a 5600 square foot house where my wife and I (not an architect) drew up the plans (using softPlan lite for $1000; I have a friend who just used paper). The problem with going pro on this is that the basic plans may be reasonable in cost, if you are like us, you'll get killed on changes. During the design phase of my project, I would easily have spent $12,000 for the plans.
Roger <><
Would you happen to know how soft plan lite compares with Plan 3d? i have used the later to draw up rudimentary lay out of the addition. Plan 3d is not all that user friendly (or maybe i lack the patience to learn it well)
thanks
My friend started with Plan 3d and abandond the effort due to "carpel tunnel syndrome". On the version she was using, you have to hold the mouse button down during drag and drop operations. For a lot of drawing, this can be the source of much pain.
Softplan Lite will generate cross sections for you [a great time saver]. And is fully capable of generating professional quality "construction documents".
My impression of Plan 3D is that it may be good for floor plans, but probably not real good for cross sections and going to the building inspection department with them. The manuall drawing method still works. The key for us was the engineering, as the building inspector would not approve without the "Stamp".
Glad your house turned out well. Would love to see photos of it.
Over the years, I have seen many "drawn by the home owner, and you can tell from half a mile" houses that make "run of the mill" development homes look like castles.
Never ceases to surprise me that someone looking to spend a bundle on construction( wether it is 100k on a remodel, or 350 to 500k on a new house) always feel that the cost of professionally prepared plans is too high.
Must be a perception of "just receiving a set of drawings on paper".
Architects/designers serve a purpose, and good ones will give you a home that is unique, proportionally detailed, well thought out, with space saving ideas, and logical approaches to your specific needs. This all adds up to a home that will serve you better, both now and in the future.
That being said.....of course there are exceptions.
Does not sound too bad of a price. Check his references.
Is he simply going to draw what you showed him, or is he going to review your needs with you, then come up w/ some alternate approaches/layouts for you to consider? (ie. is he designing, or just drawing?)
Do you have plans for the existing home that the designer can use, or does he have to re-create them before he can lay out the addition? This adds quite a bit of time, and consequently adds to the cost.