Cost saving ideas & construction tips
Hi all…I have posted a few questions, but thought of several other things I wanted to ask, so I am lumping them together. I am designing our second home and wanted some ideas from builders or those in specific trades…I am an interior designer and have worked in commercial construction, so I have a little background. However, I will be the first to admit that my background is mostly design, so I am not up to speed on how things actually come together once you are on site. I am trying to design this house in the most economical way possible. It will be around 3500 square feet; we are using a “square” design, to eliminate a lot of cost in the foundation, roof, etc. I was hoping I might get some other general ways to cut costs??? (ie, lining up the plumbing walls, etc)
Also, we are wanting to install a wood burning fireplace in the breakfast area, which also backs up to an outdoor wood burning fireplace. Can these chimneys be combined? What is the best way to handle this?
My husband is wanting to install a set of stairs that run from the garage down into the basement. I understand this will add cost for the extra concrete walls…does anyone have an idea of roughly how much this set of stairs may cost?
The house will have an “arts & crafts” look to it and we are thinking of using the individual shingle siding (along with stone & some stucco) that is popular on a lot of the east coast houses (we are in the midwest). Does anyone have any likes/dislikes about these or any particular brand?
Are there any other products out there that you have a liking for or would recommend? I appreciate any insight you could give…thanks!!
Replies
an HO here
would help if you put where you are, at least generally, where you are would help.
you use the word chiminy, did you mean flue? IIRC a chiminy can have more than 1 flue
stairs in a garage may have some major code restrictions, gasoline fumes I believe are heavier than air.
ther's a thread recently about someone who was looking for ideas to reduce the estimated cost of the house, did you read that thread?
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
We are in the Kansas City area, if that helps. As far as the chimney, I am just wanting to know how many "parts" the two fireplaces can share, since they will both be wood burning and are back to back.
We had a house a few years ago that had a set of stairs from the garage to the basement and it didn't seem to be any problem...I will have to check into local codes.
I just worked on a house in Lees Summit that had a set of stairs to the basement. These were in addition to a set inside the house. The basement was not finished or divided in any way.There was a door at the foot of the garage stairway, but the other one was open.
This house was completed in the early summer this year.
I can't speak to the code issues [I'm not a carpenter], but the folks received their Certificate of Occupancy and moved in recently.
I don't know where you are [in the Kansas City area], but it may be up to the local building inspection dept.
FWIW, Neither MO or KS has state wide codes and it is up the local community as to what code they adopt.And if is not really close to KC there might not be any codes at all.The last time I looked I think that Blue Sprins, Independence, and Lee's Summit where using IRC.But there are lots of other cities and counties in the area.BTW, did you notice the admentments in Lees Summit to the electrical section. The GFCI requires look like they date from the early 90's.
1999 NEC. No arc fault protection any where.
It is older than the 99 NEC.99 required AFCI's after 2001.But it is even worse than that."6. Kitchen Outlets - All 125-volt, single-phase, 15 and 20-ampere receptacles that serve
countertop surfaces, and are located within 6 feet of the outside edge of a sink shall
have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel. Receptacle outlets shall
not be installed in a face-up position in the work surfaces or counter-tops. (LSCO 7-
963)"http://www.lees-summit.mo.us/content/docs/Electricalcode.pdfThe 99 requires GFCI for ALL countertop recepts.According to a summary sheet that I have of GFCI requirements the 6ft rules was in affect for 87, 90, 93 NEC.The last that I look Blue Springs was on the 2003 IRC and it had two exceptions. One one stair raisers and the other excluding AFCI's.
Just a few thoughts -
Way to go - square houses have less wasted space - less hallways!
If you are looking to save money, don't do shingle siding. Hardie (cement) shingles are 5 times the cost of their siding. Real wood I haven't priced lately. There are many ways to get the crisp look of Arts & Craft. Hardi panels (4x8) with hardi (I'm not a salesman for them - really) battens every 4 feet, then regular siding on the 2nd floor is one potential look - they have stucco panels as well. You could use individual shingles as accents in gables or wherever for the look...
Chimneys that are actually used should be entirely within the envelope of the home - not on an outside wall, though that is commonly done. You should never share a flue, but the two flues can be in the same masonry mass. Build a masonry heater or rumford - wood stoves are too hot to the touch. As for the outdoor fireplace, put a fire ring or chimnea on the patio and save $10K
How will a square house that large get much light in the middle? Put in lots of big windows!
Stick your stairwell inside the living area of the house (just off the garage) Then you don't have to deal with gas fumes (heavier than air - dangerous in a basement - code issue) or an extra wall. In a house this big you can find the space for this.
Are you building a hipped roof foursquare? I liked those houses - the brick ones are still around. What about porches?
Keep us informed on your progress...
few windows, windows cost money. big windows cost big money.
windows leak heat and cold.
windows are potential water leaks.
the fewer the windows and doors the better, as fare as keeping the cost down and having less water leaks.
The simple gable roof is less expensive to build. The less angles for the roofer figure out and to make a mistake on the less likely to have a leak.
Use what the people on the board here is calling a moony wall. It will give you a thermal brake and acoustical brake. It is 2 x 2 strapped horizontally to your studs so you only have 1 1/2 contact at each stud. it will allow more insulation into your walls.
Were I to build a house today, the tiny bit of extra foundation for those steps would be a non issue. The framers can rough frame them easily enough. If the basement isn't finished, there's no reason that you need more than 2x12 treads.
Which brings to mind, for the money, since you're in the midwest with a basement, think about your footings for a sec. Even at the garage, because of the frost line, and form sizes, the guys placing the walls are going to put up 4 ft forms. You'll have a footing at least 36" below grade and enough above to get your slab inside its perimeter. Look into hollow core concrete slabs. Here in Lincoln, that option on a garge can be had turnkey for about 8 bucks a foot. The concrete that would have gone there now goes below, and you just gained 500, 600? sq ft extra downstairs, depending on how big the garage is. So the cost is the slab install, and a little more excavation.
I suspect KCMO costs are not going to be far off of us.
If you're looking at designing room sizes, to save money, think about the dimensions that materials come in. Carpet comes in 12 and 15ft widths. So a 17ft wide room has to have a seam, which generates waste. (You buy the whole rug, even the part that goes in the dumpster). Unlike trim, where even little offcuts can get used to some extent going around a short wall or making returns.
Someone else said Hardie on the shingle siding. I completely agree, if cost is an issue. It will hold up better to your climate there, cost less, last longer. Thats one trade where I'd go look at a past install. Theres some awesome hardie folks here, and a couple of really really bad ones.
I dont know how authentic a look you're shooting for, and this is a budget buster but look at them at least, both Kolbe and Marvin make a window suited to reproduction looks - with the pulleys, chains, weights. But they aren't cheap. They sure look snazzy though.
"Sometimes when I consider what tremendous consequences come from little things, I am tempted to think -- there are no little things" - Bruce Barton
The most effective way to save money is to build smaller. 3500 square feet is huge. With your design skills you should be able to have a beautiful and functional house with fewer square feet.
You can combine two wood burning appliances in the same chimney, but they must have separate flues. If you have gas you can save big bucks by not having a chimney.
There are safety issues with stairs down off a garage. Gasoline vapors are heavier than air. If you had a leak or spill the vapors would travel down the stairs where they could be ignited by an appliance in the basement. For that reason, codes require that there be a raised "wall" around the stairwell of around 8 to 12 inches. That's commonly done by laying a course of concrete block around the stairwell. So you have to step over it to get down stairs. It also keeps water from the car from running down the stairs. Even if there are no codes in your area, the gasoline doesn't know so you should follow it for safety sake.
Why would you want the stairs off the garage anyway? It's awkward to have to walk out into a cold, wet, unfinished space to get to the basement. To save money your basement should be living space, and you'd want to walk down their as pleasantly and easily as walking from the second floor to the first. If you meant 3500 square feet in addition to the basement you'd really be splurging on expense.
Hardie Shingles are among the most durable siding materials you could choose. They would go well with the stone and stucco and last forever. I used them on my house, which was Arts and Crafts style and included stone with copper flashing.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=73760.5
I know...it seems like we should be able to get by with less footage, but there are 6 of us in the house (we have kids) and we often have family in from out of town. We entertain a lot, so a dining room is a must for us. With these factors, we are ending up with about 3500 square feet. I don't feel like our rooms are elaborate, but we are moving from a house where the kids share rooms and one of our requirements for this house was designing it with a room for everyone, even if small...they are excited to have their own space. The finished square footage is not including the basement, which we are not finishing at this time. The basement was only going to be around 1500 square feet, the rest of the house would be crawlspace/slab. We were planning to have stairs to the basement through the house, but also wanted a set from the garage. It has been our experience there is a lot less muddy footprints through the house and easier to get to tools, storage etc. if there is a set of stairs from the garage to the basement (and I am a clean "freak"). Thanks for all your help!!
you want cheap. cut your sq feet down to about 2000. 3500 is a big house. use CMU filled, glue the drywall on. single floor no basement. low pitch roof, metal. stain concrete slab as finish floor, one bathroom. no dining room. now that cheap. no garage, no carport.
Maybe I gave the wrong impression...I don't want cheap, I just wanted ideas to save money. If there are certain things you can do, like lining up the plumbing walls, that will save money, I just wanted to incorporate that into the design, while I am designing it.
There was a recent discussion in the Business folder, titled "budget solutions" that might help you out.Jo
If you have to have all the room, you can think about combining spatial functions to cut down on square footage. Take out all the Sarah Susanka books from the library and read all about her "not so big house" theories.
If steps are OK with you, the more vertical you can get, the more you can save.
Sloping lots can save you money, in that you can put a large part of either living space or garage space, or both, in the foundation.
A main floor guest bedroom can have its ensuite bath configured as two rooms, one with shower or tub, the other with lav and toilet, with the room with lav and toilet having common hall access for use as the mainfloor "powder room."
Don't waste space by having huge two story ceiling vaults over mainfloor spaces. You can do cathedral ceilings, or vaults, up on the upper floor under the roof.
Simplify the roof structure as much as possible. Extra gables add cost.
one additional thing . . .Several suggestions about finishes/quality here, but don't fool yourself about storage either. We all collect crap, and need a place to put it. When you see the nice photographs in the magazines with the uncluttered living rooms and broad expanse of open floor space, it's because lurking out of sight is a place stacked with cardboard boxes filled with Christmas ornaments, elementary school art projects, photos and cheap vacation momentos.If you're putting in an unfinished basement, make it work for you. Don't just stick in a furnace, maybe a washer/dryer, then leave it at that. Put in shelves with any leftover wood not used elsewhere during construction. You've already paid for it . . . use it. I've done that in our basement and garage with construction scraps, and it makes a big difference. And every square foot you use efficiently is that much more you can shrink your floor plan.
Cost effective construction ideas have been covered here a lot. I know it is tedious, but spend some time searching the archives.
My design is 2200 to 2600sqft (depending on if you include the mudroom and bonus room over the garage) and we are doing what we can to build efficiently. Square foundation, 8' ceilings (except for greatroom), simple roof lines, simple load paths, etc.
We "nested" stairs with langinds to provide a path from the garage down to the basement in the same stair that goes up into the kitchen (and the stairs to the 2nd floor is above those stairs.)
Trying to accomodate the standard sizes of things takes a lot of work and refinement. One small change has a cascade effect. However, it can be done - just don't try and take it to the Nth degree unless you have a builder who agrees to it.
There is a method floating out there called OVE (Optimum Value Engineering) that has some merit - the 2' module, common walls, etc - however, some of its suggestions (no trimmer studs, steel hardware to hand headers from full studs) - well, that's just silly becuase it creates so many other issues (IMO).
We are also doing an inside and outside fireplace.
The inside will be a Tulukivi which we can't afford right now. So we put footings in the basement and will pour the slab as usual. When the time comes, we'll lay block up to the bottom of the floor joists, create a ledge for them, cut out where needed, pour a hearth/slab and build the Tulikivi.
For the outside, we had the mason pour those walls now, but that won't happen right now either. That will be hidden under the deck until we are ready.
The "chimney" will be on the outside, but the inside flue will not go through the wall to outside unitl about half-way up the 17' wall. The outside flue will run parallel to the inside flue up to the top.
I combined some plumbing walls, we are going with vinyl (although we'd prefer Cementicious like Hardie or Cert). Vinyl is common in the neighborhood so it is not the worst thing in the world.
Stay away from curved windows, go with sliding doors instead of french, slider windows are the cheapest, but we are going with casement. Proper for A&C would probably be double-hung with smaller upper sash, but those will add cost, too.
My design shrank 3 times from the original to cut costs. Would we like a bigger house with bigger rooms, more baths, bigger closets? Sure. However, the design we ended up with still makes us smile.
Beware (but don't totally ignore) people who say, "you might as well do this, too. it's only another $3000 ($5000, $500, $10,000, whatever)" every one of those things must be carefully scrutinzed to determine it's true "worth" to the project.
Leave room to go over budget. Prebuy (within reason) finish items when you find deals and if you have a place to store them. (tile, hardwood, light fixtures). Go to salvage yards if you are really up to a challenge.
Trim in white painted rather than A&C qs oak. (Sort of a modern A&C if you do it right). If you do a room with wood trim, make it a small one like dining, library, foyer, etc)
Throw in sweat equity if you are lucky enough to find a builder who agrees to it.
and on and on and on. . .
Good luck.
Adventures in Home Building
An online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
Edited 8/10/2006 10:59 pm by jhausch
After I wrote my long post another thought came to mind. This is not something I could have said 2 years ago, but today is a different story.
Go talk to the big builders in your area. The market is slowing and they are wheeling and dealing now. (at least they are around here) You may have to go with a modification of one of their designs, but it is slowly becoming a buyers market again.
Also, another alternative if you want to GC this for yourself, look at the outfits like Homeworx, Ubuildit, and President Homes.
Adventures in Home Building
An online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
> around 3500 square feet; we are using a "square" design, ...
To do that with one story, the square would have to be nearly 60 ft on each side. For a two story, it would take a little over 40 ft per side. Three stories would make it pretty close to a cube, 34 ft. per side. The first thing we need to know about is the lot size, setbacks, and other zoning issues.
Next, what about location and climate? I get the impression that this'll be a long term family home for you, so you have to balance initial construction costs with long term operating costs, like for HVAC. A proper attic with blown in cels makes a lot more sense than "cathedral" ceilings, even in the mildest of climates.
-- J.S.
Look into floor trusses. In my area they are a little cheaper than I-joists and the mechanicals can all be ran without cutting or drilling any joists, making it cheaper for installs.
At least one will get cut though, "we thought the toilet went there."
What's wrong with me? I could ask you the exact same thing.