As usual, I need the advice of the professionals. I need to replace the carpet in my basement due to a burst water pipe. The majority of the carpet has been removed and I got a deal on some carpet from an auction. I just need padding and labor to install. I have a quote from one firm and he is proposing to lay the carpet for $10/sq. yd. My question is whether or not this is reasonable. I am located in MD, just outside of Annapolis.
The job is relatively straightforward, 2 rooms one roughly 15×50 and the other 13x 20. Tack strips are down and I have removed all but one 2 ft wide strip of old carpet in the small room.
I guess I was expecting a quote more along the lines of “so many guys at so many hours” rather than a sq. yardage charge.
Thanks for your help!
Replies
i'm here in the midwest and have alot of carpet layed. my guy charges 4.00 a yard to lay it and i pick up the pad [7/16 high density] for 3.25 a yard. so it doesn't seem like he's that far off with the east cost factor figured in.
i never heard of a carpet guy by the hour,my guy and his helper,both in the late 50's will lay about 100-125yds a day.hard work for 200 a day. larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Frank,
In my area, all carpet, pad and install is priced by the square foot/square yard, not by the hour.
Seems reasonable to me, at $1.11/sq.ft. for install. Does this price include the pad?
Tack strips are down and I have removed all but one 2 ft wide strip of old carpet in the small room.
You have already done 1/2 the work. Unless you clear $1000 a day at your normal job after taxes, DIY and finish the job. Still using the kicker strip made of tack strips, a short 2x4, and rubber pad 35 years ago, has laid 4 - 500 yards over the years; carpet LOTS easier than sheet vinyl. A $2 used clothing iron from Goodwill makes a great seam iron.
I am an ex carpet installer. I have been paid as little as 2.25 per yard to install commercial glue down in massive quantity to as much as 7.50 per yard for woven wool. I used to charge an extra 1.50 per yard to tear up and haul away old carpet. Existing tackless strip is really not credited because more often than not it needs repairing and replacing and that can be as bad as installing new from scratch. With the cost of pad you are probably in the correct range. The most important thing is quality and you can not test that with price. Look for a recommendation from someone you trust, ask around.
Jason
Thank you all. This installer was recommended to me by my neighbor's decorator. I think we will go with him.Frank
I just paid $5/yd (berber was $1/yd 'extra') here in the midwest. Pad was already down and I got no credit for that. Somewhat surprised that I paid for total yardage of the carpet piece I bought, and not the actual yardage of the room.
Took 1 guy less than 4 hours to lay just over 40 yards--rectangular room with one closet. Granted you're on your knees most of your life, but I thought $50 an hour a pretty decent wage for a business run entirely out of your van, almost no overhead, and all the tools you need are in a small toolbox. <g>
"$50 an hour a pretty decent wage for a business"Businesses don't earn wages. They pay them.The rest of your fantasy ramblings about this mans' income is based on the logical sequence "Maybe he doesn't ... therefore he doesn't."Maybe he does ...
Have liability insurance
Keep a profit in his business
Take a vacation
Buy advertising
Have health insurance
Pay commercial rates on his phone
Pay commercial rates for his van insurance
Pay an accountant
Pay a lawyer
Have to pay W/C, even if he has no empoyees. I dunno your local laws.
Not work 5 jobs a weekWhat ever he does or does not have for OH, he pays twice the SS that you do.Only his accountant knows his true annual take home. For all you know, his take home is less than $320/week.Browse back in the business folder a couple of weeks and you'll find a guy charging $40/hr, who was only taking home $4.35/hr for all the hours he put in the business.SamT
<Businesses don't earn wages. They pay them.>I guess we could play semantics: <fantasy ramblings> ????? <g><The rest of your fantasy ramblings about this mans' income is based on the logical sequence "Maybe he doesn't ... therefore he doesn't.">I don't think I said anything about his actual income. I commented on what I paid him for 4 hours work. Yes I think it was good hourly pay--for these particular circumstances.
The logical sequence is actually: Maybe he DOES, maybe he doesn't. None of us know.<he pays twice the SS that you do.>How could you possibly know what I pay?<Only his accountant knows his true annual take home. For all you know, his take home is
less than $320/week.>Agreed. What I was trying to say, apparently not very successfully, is that there ARE two sides to this story. For a well run 'by the book' business, what you and others say is valid. But there are plenty out there who don't have an attorney, or an accountant, or liability insurance, or advertising, or health insurance, or take a vacation, or have a retirement fund. And every time you take one of those out, you theoretically--at least up front-- increase your bottom line. I'm not saying it's right, or even a good idea, but it happens.
SamT
tab1
Just to point out the other side.. I know of few carpet installers who haven't had either hip/ knee or both surgery..
Humping carpet into and out of rooms isn't easy work either. $50 an hour might seem ok untill you realize that they have no promise of a 40 hour week, seldom have medical or even some sort of retirement.
Like most construction work the great ones make it look easy..
That might possibly be on the high side, but fair.
What would be yellow flags to me if I were the installer is two things that might bump price up -
one is that you bought the carpet at auction - so no idea if it is seconds or flawed in some other way that will createextra work for me to get it to lay and stretch acceptably.
The other is that you have the ussed tack strips in place. Odds are 50/50 that I might have to tear them up and place new ones. That can be extra work over just installing new to begin with. Not much, but still more.
And some basements can be a real PITA to get carpet into
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You are exactly right. I had the installer out to inspect the carpet and the rooms, pointing out the tack strips and what I saw as issues. Probably the reason he came in slightly high (to my estimation) but fair.
Thanks for your input!!Frank
It's funny how we calculate the costs of doing business for other people. He was in your home for less than four hours= $50 per hour. The time for swinging by and inspecting and bidding is a free hour. The cost of bidding jobs you don't get is minimal overhead. The cost of swinging by the supply house is an unpaid hour or two extra per week. The profit lost by missing the second 4 hours of work per day if you can not fill in that space with more free bids or jobs. By the way how much did the roll of seem tape cost you?
Here is a guy who has to drive from job to job and bid to bid for $200+ per week in gas in a one ton van. He will average another $100-200 per week in supplies like staples, blades, tack strip, nails, seam tape, latex seam sealer, ect. He has to pay for his own hours of vacation pay and sick leave. He has a liability insurance policy. He has to pay for his own medical insurance, and employers portion of income taxes. He also gets to contribute to his own retirement fund. You are really lucky as a self employed person to be able to have 30+ billable hours per week.
I don't know the installer but being a carpet layer is not one of those jobs where you are getting rich. Its hard work, thats hard on your body. There is also no paycheck the months you are recovering from injuries from lifting akward heavy stuff day after day.
I'm now much happier as a carpenter making less money. ; )
Jason
There was no 'swing by and inspect/bid' time--he quoted his price per yard, on the phone, and I never saw him until he showed up to do the job. I couldn't say how often he goes to sites to bid jobs. Rarely, I'd guess.He charged for his supplies, including the seam tape.I'm well aware of, and thought about, the fact that he may not have had another job to fill the other 4 hours of that day. On the other hand, if you refigure his hourly wage at the full 8 hours--4 of which he didn't even work--he STILL made $25/hour, which is WAY above minimum wage.Why would you say he has a liability policy? He might. He might not. I'd guess there are huge numbers of self-employed tradesmen out there who don't have medical insurance, vacation pay, or retirement funds. And they aren't making $50/hour.I wasn't implying his wage was excessive, or that he was getting rich. My point was simply that he's making a pretty dam* good wage for a job that takes no formal education, allows you to work whenever you want, be your own boss, and is generally conducted in fairly nice clean surroundings. If I had a choice of flipping burgers, or learning to lay carpet, it wouldn't be a hard decision.If you're happier being a carpenter, that's great. I suspect others would be happy to get out of the rain/mud/freezing cold/100+ degree days, etc., and lay carpet--if they knew what it pays.
If you're happier being a carpenter, that's great. I suspect others would be happy to get out of the rain/mud/freezing cold/100+ degree days, etc., and lay carpet--if they knew what it pays.<<I guess thats what differentiates a craftsman and a just a tradesman...craftsman are a dying breed according to the above statement if that's the mindset. Give me hot or cold or wet days..just give me something to build.
Laying carpet??? Not for any money!
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"he STILL made $25/hour, which is WAY above minimum wage"I wasn't going to get into this issue, but you are starting to get downright INSULTING when you compare a tradesman working independent to somebody who deserves minimum wages. Where do you ccome off doing that in your mental oncept of what it takes to do this work?????"Why would you say he has a liability policy? He might. He might not. I'd guess there are huge numbers of self-employed tradesmen out there who don't have medical insurance, vacation pay, or retirement funds. And they aren't making $50/hour."If he does not have liability insurancce policy, then he is assuming the liabilities all by himself, which is more expensive than buying the insurance.
Same with all the other labor burden costs mentioned - they exist whether he does it aboveboard or not. So the ccustomer has to pay them one way or another."My point was simply that he's making a pretty dam* good wage for a job that takes no formal education, allows you to work whenever you want, be your own boss, and is generally conducted in fairly nice clean surroundings. If I had a choice of flipping burgers..."Yeah, you are full of insults today...get off it.
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Yea,I think the point that's being missed here is that he is NOT earning $50 per hour (or even $25 per hour if you credit the whole day)This is the other way to discuss the subject that comes up so often in the business folder here and in JLC. Usually, it's the installer who feels he's doing ok making $50 (or $25) an hour - "Cause - that's pretty good money..."Then you all here (properly) rain on that parade and proceed to let him know how much less he is actually making by the time you factor in his real overhead/costs/profit needs, etc.I'll agree that the OP should've stopped a few paragraphs back into the glowing praise of $25 and hour for physically demanding, quality work.JT
My intention is not, and has not been to INSULT anyone. Perhaps saying somone "deserves minimum wages" especially at todays wages, might be insulting? But that's another issue entirely.<Where do you ccome off doing that in your mental oncept of what it takes to do this work?????>To do what? Lay carpet? It's not rocket science. It's a learned skill, just like any other--including flipping burgers. Is there an art to it? Undoubtedly. Some do it extremely well, some don't. I've never laid carpet, but I have done a fair amount of building, and I'd GUESS it's a whole lot harder to be a good carpenter than be a good carpet layer. JUST A GUESS!
I've seen MANY thick books written about carpentry. Never a one about carpet laying.<If he does not have liability insurancce policy, then he is assuming the liabilities all by himself, which is more expensive than buying the insurance.>Not necessarily. Just like all insurance, it really depends on whether there are claims or not, and what is done about those claims. <Same with all the other labor burden costs mentioned - they exist whether he does it aboveboard or not. So the ccustomer has to pay them one way or another.>If I understand you correctly, I'd agree with you, in an ideal world--which we don't live in. There are millions of self-employed workers who don't have health insurance, retirement funds, etc., and they aren't making enough for their services to have them, whether they want to or not. So the customer doesn't pay them "one way or the other".<Yeah, you are full of insults today...get off it.>You've read insults in where none were intended. I've reread my original post, and still think it was just a comment on a fact I didn't know much about, and found surprising--somewhat like the OP. My second post was a reply to Jason, explaining that I had thought about, and am aware of most if not all of his points.If you think I'm denigrating carpet layers, or tradesmen of any kind, YOU are flat wrong!
No, I am not wrong. You have now made another post in this thread denigrating the skills required. No, it isn't rocket science, but it involves a whole lot more than you will ever know.I see the same attitude in homeowners about roofers or painters and think they can do it themselves because what the heck, it ain't rocket science. Then they screw it all up badly and call for help to correct all they just messed up.
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Why do people keep saying "this aint rocket science" damn man, I don't know any rocket scientist that are doing what I'm doing or your doing, or for that matter what all of us on here are doing!
What the hell makes everybody think rocket scientist are so damn smart? I'm working on a house, the HO's a optometrist(not sure of the professional name), the guy that actually operates on your eyes, and he sees me cut a simple hole in a cherry soffit and says, "I'd be afraid to do that, scared that I would slip and put a big gouge in the wood." I told him that I'd be afraid to work on someone's eyes, I'd be afraid that I'd slip and the guy wouldn't be able to see! I guess its all relative..........
Whatever it is that we chose to become professionals at it takes time and a lot more then most people think, a huge investment!
Doug
being as i do roofing im insulted that carpet layers have it easy, im the guy on the gravy train, big bucks, easy work, dont gotta do a lotta pesky big tinking, i laugh at the other trades from my perch as i sop my gravy, heck i dont even need tools, the homeowner has shovels in the garage, i have a old pickup, ok if i keep going everyone will wanta peice of the pie
I've deliberately avoided answering for a while in order to cool down a little. I TRY to be very respectful when asking or responding to questions on this or any of the other forums I frequent, because I KNOW I'm not as knowledgeable as the professionals there. On the other hand, I've been a subscriber to FHB for 24 years, a sporadic JLC subscriber and have built or remodeled many structures--almost all without any help from this forum. I've also owned my own business. I'm pretty certain I'm not exactly the average 'homeowner' you're talking about:<Then they screw it all up badly and call for help to correct all they just messed up.>In reading through all the posts in this thread I can't find any 'factors' or 'hidden costs' that I wasn't aware of when I made my original post. You, and others, presumed a lot. As far as I know you know little or nothing about me, this area, cost of living here, labor prices here, or this particular installer and his business. Knowing what I know about ALL of those, I'll stand by my first statement --(what turned out to be) $50/hr--pretty decent.< You have now made another post in this thread denigrating the skills required.>No, I didn't. I said nothing about the skill 'required', by saying it's not rocket science. Clearly the saying alludes to the fact that it doesn't take huge amounts of brain power to do whatever the activity is being discussed. And just as clearly, I'm sure that applies to laying carpet. This makes NO implications, of any kind, about the intelligence of the average carpet installer!<it involves a whole lot more than you will ever know.>Well, that's EXACTLY why I come this forum. Since there are several in this thread who seem to think laying carpet is not so terribly difficult, I, and I'm sure others here who are interested in laying their own carpet in the future, would like to hear about that "whole lot more".And last, though you don't seem to believe it, I'll say it one more time: I don't think I did, nor did I mean to, insult or denigrate ANYONE.
I don't really take any of this personally. Carpet Installation is a specific skill that can be learned by a person who has decent hand skills and spacial intelligence. It does not take a genius to poorly install basic carpet. It does take a decent tradesmen to install enough carpet in a day to be profitable. It also takes a little skill to install patterned carpets. Carpets come as cheap as the $5 per yard carpet you find at Home Depot to $150 per yard Karastans and Woven Wilton's and Axminister carpet with bamboo and wire backing with a wool pile that require hand sewing to be warrantied. I have installed carpet that runs thirty grand in a master bedroom and got paid a few dollars a yard premium to take on the liability of replacement.
I learned from my father. I left not because of the money but because of the quality of life. It is a trade that is often squeezed in at the last minute to make a deadline. You compete with electricians, plumbers abd trim carpenters on top of you trying to finish before the last minute closing. The rate of injury is extremely high. It is also relatively repetative like any job.
My point was not that carpet guys deserve accolades, but that people are funny about the cost of doing business. We all think it is greener on the other side of the fence. I for one can tell you that there were plenty of carpet jobs I have done that grossed well over $100 per man hour. That does not mean I have ever put $200,000 per year into my pocket. It also amazes me to hear people who make $30,000 per year compare their $15 per hour with that fifty.
What really happens is you get $3 per hour taken out by the government then your employer pays another $3 you don't see. Then they pay comp $3 so when you get hurt you can go to the doctor. Then they buy you an company insurance policy $2 per hour so you can go to the doctor when you get sick. They also contribute another few dollars per hour to their own fund to pay you for work you don't do when you are sick or on vacation. Plus the money they set aside to pay for the work you screw up but still get paid for and get paid to fix later. Anyone who thinks self employment is a bed of roses and money is overflowing out of the bank acounts of the self employed should quit their jobs immediatly and get on the band wagon. The carpet installation trade is and has always experienced a shortage of installers so jump in as soon as you can. You will experience riches beyond your wildest fantasy. :-)
And what I was thinking also was that its no one's business how much he makes.
I hate it when people say to me that I did the job so fast so how could I charge what I do. Well yehhhhhhhhhhh...I been doing this 30+ years. What would they rather have..someone experienced that can get the job done quickly because he knows what he's doing or someone that goes at a snails pace and makes mistakes along the way that he doesn't fix. that's another reason I hate T&M because more times than not people only look at the numbers not what they're getting (unless its a recommendation or past customer)in quality.
That poster really hit a bad nerve. Lame!
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My point was simply that he's making a pretty dam* good wage for a job that takes no formal education, allows you to work whenever you want, be your own boss, and is generally conducted in fairly nice clean surroundings.
Before starting my own business, I worked in the corporate world. I could call in "sick" or take a personal day any time I wanted. I also had flexible hours and could start early/leave early or start late/leave late.
Now, my schedule is driven by my commitments to my customers. I've got work scheduled out for the next 3 months and if I take a day off, I just fall behind. And since most of my work is indoors, I have to come and go when the HO can accommodate me.
Yeah, I'm "my own boss", but only in the sense that I'm not an employee. My customers govern my work life more than any employer ever did.
You've made a very fine summary of why those tradesmen who do a volume of "in-and-out" services have to charge what may seem like exorbitant rates.
Personally, I try to land jobs that I can be camped on for awhile and try to avoid those "replace a window here, an entry set there or a single rotting deck post." A friend of mine likes that kind of work and does well at it, but his prices (which shock some folks) take into account a lot of windshield time along with some of the things you've mentioned.
Self-employed plumbers often get the same rap for gouging, but they may do 2 or 3 short jobs in a day but with a lot of drivetime, and supplier time in between.
More than a few customers think they're getting hosed because they're not fully aware of what the true costs are for an independent tradesman (even though that individual's fees may be a bargain when put against a tradesman coming out of a large shop).
I agree. I get tired of those who compare how much a tradesman costs them to how much someone else (like themselves or a burger flipper) earns.
It doesn't make sense to compare costs to earnings. That would mean that my mechanic "earns" $85/hr. It's easy to figure out how much a tradesman costs. they tell you. It's not so easy to figure out how much the burger flipper costs the burger franchise, but it's a whole lot more than $5.50/hr.
Put me down for not thinking laying carpet is rocket science, either.
I've only had one installer who was very good, an old flooring pro who could do the cove cuts on lino, too. I tried a couple other guys after him with bad results (over-cut corners, scraped trim, obvious seams) before deciding i would just do it myself. I'm rather picky so it'll take me half a day to do a room, but the results are worth it.
I rent a stretcher for $25 for 8 hours, lay my own, and find the hardest part is finding someone to help me haul it upstairs. Especially if you bought the wider 15' carpet, you're golden to do this yourself. If you have to seam...well, there are some tricks to making it invisible, but a GOOD job takes care and time; e.g. some folks will simply snap a line and cut, but i like to follow a line of stitching.
Depending on how long your basement was flooded, i'd really examine those tack strips to see if they're reusable.
Seems a bit steep to me. Is he supplying the carpet or underpad at that price?
A carpet company can't install at an hourly rate. They'd never make any money. These guys can do a whole house in a day no problem.
Your job, I'd bet they would be done in 1 1/2 hours and it would only take that long because they will have to seam the joints. I'll put money on it.
Dave