Ok, I’ve almost got my busy summer obligations over with and can now focus on the next step in finishing the basement. As a summary, the framing and heatpump are complete, and the next stage of the basement finishing project is to find an electrician.
My fear at this moment comes from the local Yellow pages listings. Before even venturing into the Yellow pages I asked all my friends for references and not a single one could provide me one. Nice.
So, I wander into the Yellow pages and filter by zip code and +300 businesses. The first few listings have advertisements all seemingly trying to focus on small projects, like adding an outlet, or installing a ceiling fan. I may be stuck between a rock and a hard place.
So, I need someone for a price to work like they are outfitting a track home, and not someone looking to charge $250-300/outlet in the unfinished basement. Then again, this cowsumer may have another kind of fear and that is one of ignorance in the costs.
So, I wonder if any other cowsumers or 1/2-man independent electricians can offer some insight on what to expect–set my expectation. I do not mind if the real-world expectation is $250-300/outlet, but if its not I really would rather avoid being taken for a ride.
I do (or think I do) understand that small jobs like the one-off outlet/switch/fam may cost more per unit than roughing in an unfinished space, but this individual doesn’t know. Anyone know of a good person to call in NE Atlanta (Gwinnett County) area?
Oh, and the timeframe is immediate!
Replies
I would just start calling, and meeting a few on the jobsite to discuss a rough estimate (or bid), and see if you find one who's price is in your range, and who seems professional and amenable to your circumstances.
The job seems pretty straightforward, I wouldn't overthink it, worrying to death about the dreaded possibility of paying more than you coulda got it for. Find a good, reasonable pro, and expect to pay a median price.
I've heard of handyman type guys charging $100/box, but a truly professional outfit (with a license, office, secretary, company truck, worker's comp, liability ins., etc.) will be significantly more. You decide which route you want to go.
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
The huge variable to some like this is how much finished construction does he have to work around?
Is the panel in the same total unfinsihed space where the new outlets are being installed?
Or is it, for example in the garage which will take lot of fishing through finished walls and running up and down stairs?
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill, existing panel is in unfinished basement on an interior (partition) wall. I was thinking of asking for the basement to be wired to sub-panel next to existing panel and then bridged together.
BTW, I use cowsumer vs consumer because for most folks we simple follow the other into a slaughterhouse and not question/fight anything. I hate that.
I thiought maybe you were trying to encipher more meaning with your use of track instead of tract housing, mixed in an electrical Q where track lighting could come along and derail it all.
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Nope, that was just me being stupid. :)
Just put your place on the track to the feedlot with the other cowsumers and off with you!
sphere, can you translate this guy for me?
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
From many of your previous posts I would think this is something you could DIY.
By the time I would be able to find an electrician I could trust (if I did not already know some) the job could alrady have been accomplished, not even considering cost.
Otherwise, expect the electrician to be about as pricey as your heat pump guy.
Pick 6-8 outfits and call them. Maybe 3-4 will return your call. Describe over the phone what you want and ask if they're interested. Get bids/estimates from 2-3, and select the outfit that you're most comfortable with.
Years ago I just called the electricians union hall for one or two men. A small addition ,maybe 600 sf would take about two and a half days. Costs in 1980's were about $400.00 per day for each electrician.Even a 2500 sq ft house cost under $6500 for labor and material,excluding chandeliers and the like.
Might pay to inquire.
mike
I believe your expectations are unrealistic.
Tract pricing? Are you providing a worksite where there is no drywall up, the ceiling is open all the way to the panel, cleanliness is not a concern, and .... are you providing 500 such, all in a row, to be done at the same time?
I do three kinds of work: good, cheap, and fast. You may choose any two of the three.
More to the point, your expectations are unrealistic. It takes - easily - $100/billable hour just for a business to meet expenses. That's any business. If you want me to be around tomorrow, you need to ensure that I make money today.
I recently added a receptacle to a home, under rather decent circumstances. Still, it took a good three hours. Now, you may not have noticed this, but .... chances are that I was not able to get eight billable hours that day. Those three hours had to pay the bills for all the 'dead' time between jobs.
I need to bring in $200/ month just to pay the minimum required licenses for my business- and I don't need anything 'special' (like an explosives permit). I'm not even talking about workman's comp, unemployment insurance, liability insurance, or payroll taxes. Or the cost of having that truck running and stocked.
I'm running a business, not a charity. Chances are, your home and car are nicer than mine .... who should be cutting who some slack here?
As for "needing it yesterday" .... well, convenience costs. I hear all the time about an 'electrician shortage,' but there only seems to be a shortage of $20 receptacle installers .... offer me $500, and I just might have some room in my schedule.
That post is suitable for framing. I get so tired of being undercut on prices by the unlicensed & cheap homeowners wasting my time.
People look at me and see one guy not a business. They think i'm nuts cause they dont make that much an hour (actually had a guy tell me this).
he's an engineer for the big three so i'm thinking his overhead is a little lower than mine. Of course you try and explain that and they dont believe you.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
>> he's an engineer for the big three so i'm thinking his overhead is a little lower than mine. Of course you try and explain that and they dont believe you. <<
It's easy for people who work for large corporations with lots of benefits, etc to forget how much their employer is really paying to keep them around. Heck, probably a lot of 'em don't even have any idea. For people with those types of jobs who also deliver billable services to their customers it might be a little easier to see. Engineer???? Maybe makes $40 or $50 an hour and is billed at maybe $160 or $200.
When working on the construction site I am aware that some (many) of the guys who work for my subs live in mobile homes. Even a few of the business owners. Must be because of all that money they make. Right?
Nuke: I'm guessing that $4 or $5 a sq foot might be a number but really have no idea since I only do new construction and am not an electrician - I only hire electricians. As far as your schedule is concerned, it will be good that an electrical contractor will see that this is work in the near future and you are serious about hiring someone, but OTOH, I'd be suspicious of anyone who is available immediately. You will need to be patient.
Edited 8/9/2008 6:57 am ET by Matt
easy for people ....... to forget how much their employer is really paying to keep them around -- not really.
Our large corporation continually tells us how much the overhead is as it is always too high....roughly 2.5X the highest paid engineers per hour to about 8x per hour for technicians whose overhead has to cover their extensive facilities.
Fair enough...
OTOH I didn't say all... Maybe I should have said some...
So, you know how much your company pays to keep you around. Good. So, when an electrician shows up and wants $75 an hr with a 2 hr minimum to fix a few little things that will take 30 minutes you gladly pay the man.... just so that you will know it's done correctly by a professional. ;-)
So, when an electrician shows up and wants $75 an hr with a 2 hr minimum to fix a few little things that will take 30 minutes you gladly pay the man..
Well no, lotsa discussions on that point. In 43 year of homeownership, we never have called anybody for anything (except medical/dental appointments).
Have always assumed we can get something done faster DIY than finding someone to do it and waiting around for them - dont know that for sure 'cause never even tried calling anybody to do anything for us.
(drilling a well was an exception to the 'DIY faster' part, too many hours expended there<G>, figure I paid myself about $2/hr for that job, but did I ever learn a lot)
BTW, Shoveling out our own septic tank paid us about $50/hr tax free, and observed lots of interesting anerobic little critters in the process. Good for humility also<G>, plus you find out what brand condoms house guests (or daughter's boyfriend?) have used (e.g. the plastic foil wrappers ARE NOT effected).
IMHO, the only way to know for sure something has been done right is to learn how to do it correctly and DIY. That is why in an earlier post I wondered why Nuke did not DIY the job, as pretty sure he knows how to do it correctly.
I don't share your need to do everything myself. In many instances I am better off just doing my job and making my wage and then hiring out tasks that need to be done that I don't specialize in or that don't appeal to me. It's called quality of life. In other words, just because I can, doesn't mean I have to or want to. Sometimes things don't get done the way I would have done them, but in some cases I'd rather just show up and say it looks good enough than actually get down in the septic tank myself. If you want to do your own septic tank that's up to you. To each his own.
Regarding DIY wiring, there is a safety factor there too. I once did some basement framing for a neighbor. He wanted to help. He is a software engineer or some such. Maybe 9 months later I saw him at HD and he asked me a Q about hookin up gas pipes for his HVAC system for the basement. This was the same guy I had taught to read a tape measure several months earlier. (no joke!!) A few months after that he asked me over to give a price on some finish carpentry. He said I was too expensive. While there I looked at his DIY shower. He had grouted the white tile with black grout but I guess he didn't know that you are supposed to wipe the grout off fully before it dries. I don't know who did his electrical but I was probably fortunate that he wouldn't pay my wage for the finish carpentry because I probably would have been shooting nails into un-protected wires, which probably would have been my fault :-). For the next year or so I'd glance at his house when coming home from work or whatever, and see if it looked like they had a house fire.... True enough they didn't, but personally I consider him a cheap B and a fool. Granted many DIYs are much more skilled than this guy - I guess it takes all kinds though.
Matt, I tend to do everything myself if I can possibly fit it into my schedule. But, that is because finding competent trades where I live is far more miss than hit. They only started enforcing building codes a few years ago, and these guys are at the low end of the learning curve.
I find it hard to pay someone, for a job that looks like something the younger brother and I would have done in grade school, building forts.
I paid an "electrician" to wire the garage. Checked it with the plug in checker, 6 out of 24 outlets read wrong. I had to have him come back and redo 18 of them. Either the ground and neutral were switched, the ground wasn't hooked up, or he had swapped the neutral with the hot.
A trim carpenter who mitered every junction, that looked at me like I was speaking Korean with a Japanese accent when I asked him about coping.
So, I tend to do everything myself.
Admittedly it is a little different for me. Finding and hiring competent people with reasonable prices is my business. It's what I do. I've got a fair number of connections too. Sure I still DIY stuff, but I think there needs to be a balance and doing everything DIY solely to avoid letting go of a little green isn't the way I want to live. There isn't enough hours in a lifetime.
BTW - 24 outlets in a garage??? I may have built a house with that many outlets...
also BTW - was that guy licensed??? I'd say my (fairly cheap) guys get a neutral and hot swapped around maybe every few hundred outlets. It's part of my quality check - theirs too.
another BTW:-) - I'd say even though they won't admit it 70 or 80 % of people's problem is picking low bidders, (or nearly low) then things come out like sheet, and they they wine and cry about what a crumb this guy was... Some of it just interviewing skills too. The other day I had a guy over to do a deck decks, some exterior stairs and railings. He said he wanted to bid my interior trim. He asked me what side I wanted the handrail on an interior set of steps. RED LIGHT! If he had to ask that, he wasn't firing up any miter box inside any of my houses.... Of course I had to know what side it went on to start with.... In that case it wouldn't matter what his bid was, nor would I throw it in the pot with the other bids so that I could say I didn't pick the cheapest guy. He wasn't a contender.
Matt the wiring was to convert the detached 24X36 garage to a woodshop.
I wanted lots of places to plug in tools, and chargers, without running extension cords.
In restrospect, I should have done the work myself, and spent the savings on things like self reeling cords on the ceiling, an emergency light, and a contactor feeding a seperate subpanel for the circuits that feed the saws, jointer, and other stuff that can hurt you when the power drops out for a minute or so, and comes back on.
Nothing gets the pulse rate up, like working in the evening, and having the power drop out long enough for the tools to spin down, then have it come back up about the time you have relaxed your grip on the board, and are starting to reach for the switch.
Unfreakin believable! Did you hire a licensed electrician or a hack? If licensed, this should be reported to the licensing authority. If not, the bad is on you for hiring unqualified subs.
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The problem is there aren't any locally who are licensed that aren't working full time at the mines. There are journey men, but they work the mines, and aren't licensed.
This guy was recommended by one of the journeymen and worked under his ticket. How hard should it have been to wire/rewire a garage/shop.
I would have done it myself, but being color blind, and having trouble in the past determining red from green, I was hesitant to do the 220 runs.
You've touched on something that vexes us all. First, there sure are a lot of 'electricians' out there who barely qualify as handymen, who never saw a day in an apprenticeship classroom, and muddle their way through simple jobs for questionable customers. I can always spot these guys; they're the ones who shut up and leave as soon as a real electrician enters the room. They know they can't fool the real guys. Then there's the matter of the trade itself. Electrical theory aside ... pulling Romex is completely foreign to a guy who does electrical work in a plant. Heck, he may mot even have the tools for drilling wood! It's not that he's a bad guy; rather, the term 'electrical' covers a tremendous amount of territory. Finding an electrician is another matter. It's simply amazing how many aren't even in the phone book! Many of the ones in the phone book market themselves to homeowners - that's why they have the big ads - and are neither cheap not particularly skilled. Still, for the homeowner, they may be the best choice.
Pity those guys working in the mines with blind ( or is it blond?) electricians!;)I see what you mean. BTW, what mines is it ramped up out your way? Uranium?
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Molybdenum, and they are going through the permitting process for a Cobalt mine.
I lived near the moly mines in CO way back when. Heard that prices for moly are up tenfold since then, so no wonder they are scouting out more.Amax or another company?
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Thompson Creek is mining molybdenum.
"That is why in an earlier post I wondered why Nuke did not DIY the job, as pretty sure he knows how to do it correctly."In Massachusetts you are not suppose to DIY electrical or plumbing.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
But Nuke is in GA!
But Nuke is in GA!
I thought the Russians were in GA?! They're gonna loot your copper.
;)
jt8
"A little 'enthusiasm' and all problems seems small!"
Thanks all, I got some helpful assistance offline.
But if I pay for a two hour minimum, I expect to be able to get two hours worth of work without the price being increased (unless there are other parts).Unlike the concrete guy I hired. I gladly payed for a full day, even though it only took a couple of hours.But when he added to the charge for the patches I had him do, he lost all referrals from me.
You hired a concrete guy by the hour???
No, I hired him to do a job - replace one section of a walk - and he said he had to charge me for the whole day. Fine, but I expect to GET the whole day without upcharges.
When I made the switch from a represented employee (represented by a union-negotiated contract; I wasn't in the union) to management, I took a 12% immeidate pay cut, paid more for my benefits, and I have no momma to protect me from being shown the door.
And you are correct, the benefits are continuously Spammed to the fleet of employees almost daily, and during bargaining years its almost hourly. Almost difficult to do one's job when you are being brow-beat on the administrative aspects in the large corporation.
But this has nothing to do with knowing when you are getting low-balled, high-balled, or just brown-nosed. :)
glad you emphasized the word guess.and I suppose things are cehaper down south, but that number sounded low to me.
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And I realize that my new construction is a TOTALLY different world than remodeling.
You may have seen in another recent thread where I stated how much I pay...
Matt, Piffen, is an unfinished basement considered a remodel or new construction in terms of electric? I have never considered this, nor the possability of differing rates by an electrician. How about an addition?
An open basement with the service panel right there COULD be cheaper to wire than a whole new tract house, but there are otehr factors.ON a tract house where production work is the rule, guys run in and run out again all finished without any questions, problems or interruptions. When it is for a professional builder all the prep work is already done.ANY time a tradesman is dealing with an HO there is time to ask questions and get answers, sometimes the answer is "I'll let you know" or "Why is that" or "Let me move that wall first"All that means costly delaysWhen somebody is living in the house, the working hours revolve around the family schedule which can be less efficient. There are usually things stored right in the way too that need moving.In new, you just jump and go and control everything.
In remo, you have to stop and figure out what is there already that you are working with or working around.So depending on the trade, it can easily be 2-3 times as expensive to do something labour wise as in production tract homes.
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I think Piff answered the Q quite well.
If you need more info on how it works in new home construction I can fill in some more.
"I get so tired of being undercut on prices by the unlicensed & cheap homeowners wasting my time. "
I say the same thing every day about businesses. In my line of work, I have POS customers so cheap they rely on consumer-level technologies to provide them commercial level services, and when their ignorance illustrates itself they come demanding to me to overcome their cheapness in business as if I can make a consumer technology better.
I no more can expect to get a pig to fly, but I can certain ask for advise, and ask someone to help set my expectations. Bitching does neither. And if a homeowner should expect to pay the same per out/switch/ceiling box for a unfinished space as they would a finished space then what incentive is there to make it easy on the contractor?
And I am not considering anyone that isn't licensed, insured, bonded, etc.
This thread might be a good opportunity for those who actually have businesses to explain a few things to those who don't. I'd start off describing some of the differences in how my father and I view things.
You see, he spent his entire career working for some monster corporation. When he needed a new desk chair, he simply put the appropriate form into the bureaucracy, and ... some time later ... a guy showed up with his new chair. Pretty simple.
When I need a new chair, well, I go and buy it - if I have the money, that is! Then I keep track of the paperwork, and I'm not "finished" buying that chair until April, and taxes are filed. Likewise, my dad got paid a salary. Roads closed by a blizzard? The paycheck was unaffected. Me? If my truck isn't on the job site, the meter isn't running. That is, the billable hours have to pay for all the time that can't be billed. It's quite common for me to "work" ten hours just to have six I can actually bill. Travel time, parts runs, trash runs, paperwork time, time between customer schedules ... all are 'dead' time. And- don't forget unpaid time looking for new work! Whether I'm on the site or not, the 'overhead' still has to get paid. I know a certain firm who's charter precludes it from making a 'profit.' As a result of this restriction, their billings cannot exceed their operating expenses. This firm charges 275% a 'working' employee's rate to their customers to cover their 'overhead.'
That is, if the employee is paid $10/hr, the customer gets billed $27.50. I once mentioned to another electrician that I had just spent $500 on some ladders. The man looked at me in shock - why, the company was supposed to buy ladders! I patiently explained that, when you're a small outfit, there's not much difference between 'you' and the 'company.' In either case, those ladders don't just magically appear. Anytime a work truck pulls up to a job, you're looking at $10,000 of gear riding on $20,000 of truck ... or more. Your little "I just need a ceiling fan hung" job has to help pay for that stuff. Finally, there's the matter of getting what you pay for. When my truck needed work, I lost nearly three days, as multiple $60/hr shops were either unable to find the problem, or were simply not able to get to it. I took it to a $95/hr shop, and - voila! - problem found, and fixed, in two hours. I'd say that the 'expensive' shop was actually the better bargain!
+1
good post
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I actually stated my expectations needed to be set. And yes, the the ceiling is completely exposed as are the walls all the way to the panel. Goes with the notion of 'unfinished'.
And I wasn't expecting tract pricing, just not pricing based on installing in finished spaces.
Go to Yahoo.com.
They got a list of things in a column along the left side of the screen. Click on "Yellow Pages."
These are different than your hard copies. They take ads and those get the upfront listings, but follow this method:
Near the top, above the annoying ad is the location. Enter your house address. Then enter "electrician" in the search box. When the results come up, hit the top tab that says, "distance".
This way, you'll get a guy close to your house and fewer excuses for "traffic holdups."
Last fall my small bathroom ceiling light started blinking when I turned on the light. I was unnerved. I called my son, he is a union schooled electrician who lives 2,500 miles away. He said call an electrician - it could be a short that could start a fire or a bad switch. I called an electrician who did work for my next door neighbor. Fortunately, it was the switch and not a short AND he didn't have to trace the wire through the walls to find the problem. Price: $75 for 20 minutes work. I didn't complain and my son said it was a good price. Plus, I slept well knowing the problem was solved.
Besides using the Yellow Pages for electricians call the BBB to check out the companies or individual you plan to hire.
I bet the companies chasing the tract home work do that work at, near or below cost to get the work.
Other parts of the same company make the profit- retrofit/remodel, commercial, service or the onsie/twosie builders and larger homeowner projects.
I have seen the quality of residential tract work by many trades. Based on some of your past posts, you are living in an example of tract housing built as cheaply as possible and sold at the highest price a "cowsumer" will pay.
Do you want more of that stellar quality in your home?
Is conduit required where you live, or is Romex the norm?
Bending pipe takes skill (or a lot of couplings and hacksaw blades) while Romex requires no skill to install.
A reasonably competent person could install a spaghetti panel.
If you have read any of the business themed posts here, you will know that a profitable business will not bill for a half day's work unless two of those jobs are nearby. If someone is chasing "half day" jobs, they need to charge the same rate as the guy chasing "whole day" jobs.
The remodeler adding a fan box has an easy half day of work for one device when you factor driving to the job, unloading the truck, placing dropcloths to protect existing conditions, doing the actual work and then cleanup.
I suspect that you will not allow the workers getting to your basement project to beat up your finished walls and flooring, right? And I bet you will be on the phone in an instant to the business owner if something gets messed up during the project.
The guys working in 100% new construction do not worry about beating up walls, floors or the mess. Taking care of those issues in a remodel can easily double the time on a job for picky homeowners.
Operating a legit business with licenses and insurance costs money.
If the business can't bill out at near $100 an hour for construction trade work, that business isn't gonna make it... or things like wages and/or benefits get cut to lower the hourly rate... or corners get cut on the work performed to meet a price that your "cowsumer" is willing to pay.
I know one builder that was paying $175 an outlet (any outlet- line or low voltage) several years ago. Line voltage was in conduit.
I know guys on the side (no insurance, usually) that are at $80 to $125 an opening now.
I would suspect that the $200 an opening range is the going rate for a fully insured and licensed business.
Best thing you can do is draw up a set of plans and get some bids.
Maybe McDesign has something for you...
??
All, I will not quibble over pricing. If I know I am getting a highly-recommended individual with experience and accountability I'll pay him/her whatever they want. I will not play games when it comes to electricity, and the wiring I have installed must exceed code.
Your last post seems to conflict with this from the first post:
So, I need someone for a price to work like they are outfitting a track home, and not someone looking to charge $250-300/outlet in the unfinished basement. Then again, this cowsumer may have another kind of fear and that is one of ignorance in the costs.
So, I wonder if any other cowsumers or 1/2-man independent electricians can offer some insight on what to expect--set my expectation. I do not mind if the real-world expectation is $250-300/outlet, but if its not I really would rather avoid being taken for a ride.
If you truly do not want to quibble over pricing, then exercise due diligence in choosing your contractor and have a set of plans or bid drawings ready. Ask the contractors about liability and comp insurance and their warrantee on workmanship.
If the project isn't too extreme, you should be able to get back of the napkin estimates from a faxed drawing relatively quickly.
I wouldn't expect a proposal or detailed bid unless you are willing to pay for one.
If you have no references, then check out the BBB or Angies List. Those two should eliminate the true deadbeat contractors that you don't want to call.
If you really need the work done *now* then expect to pay more than if a few days or week really doesn't matter. Poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on theirs unless you are willing to pay emergency rates.
Check out http://www.kudzu.com/ or http://www.angieslist.com/AngiesList/
I'm in Atlanta and have used browning electrical services
http://www.kudzu.com/merchant/12480629.html
5 star rated, excellent reviews, I would use them again
YMMV, best of luck in your search
Here in Tennessee new construction will cost you about $2 a sqft. If you supply the material, its about $1 to $1.50. A sub-panel is usually a flat rate of $500. If there are extinuating circumstances, it will reflect in the bid. Do not call the union, they will rob you blind (at least here).
"Do not call the union, they will rob you blind "based on the prices you quote, I'd guess the union is charging a fair price andf lamenting the 2/ft guys!;)How can you buy the copper for that kind of money? Sounds like pretty minimal placement of receps and fixtures, no three pole or GFCIs etc.
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Pif:
That is very close the same thing I pay. Everything is to NEC. 200A panel, arc faults, GFCIs, HVAC, water heater and appliance hookup, etc. Low voltage (CATV & phone) too. They will throw in some fan boxes, and maybe even some cans. This company I use is pretty big. I've had bids form other sparkies who say they can't even get the material for that. I've been told they buy their copper by the tractor trailer load.
Or maybe they're buying copper that falls off the back of a truck. ;)
It is an ironic habit of human beings to run faster when we have lost our way. --Rollo May
Electricians don't get paid sh!t here in the south. I don't know why. I think that its because the permit requirments are so slack here in Knoxville. A smart homeowner can do all of his electrical work without pulling a permit, unless it requires replacing or adding a panel.
Now, the prices I quoted are just for a small job with one or two electricians--sidework. We usually require that the homeowner pay all fees associated with the building department and utility company. If my full-time company were to bid the work, the price would be almost double that, I'm sure. There is just no money in residential electrical work, so that is why my company focuses on commercial jobs. But also, residential work is easy compared to what I do for forty hours a week. Me and another guy could have a rough-in complete on a small house in about two to four days, a week tops.
I guess that is one of the real reasons I don't do very much electrical work on the side, and started working with some carpenters on the weekend. The pay isn't much better, but its a nice change from pulling cable all day. My boss there also likes the fact that he has an electrician (I'm about to start my third year of trade-school, so technically I'm still an apprentice) on site. He backed into a light post on Saturday, and I was able to fix it in just a few minutes. It also opens the door for jobs he normally wouldn't be able to bid on, as he can include the electrical work in the bid and not have to sub it out--more $$ for all of us.
That comment about the union may have been a little off base. I have been offered a job with the electrical union here, and I put some serious thought into it. It may not be out of the question. They do more industrial type wiring, which is quite different then what I do every day and arguably more difficult. I made my comment with what my freind told me his job responsibilites were, and what they paid him. I sure as heck couldn't afford him. I'll look into it further once I finish school.
Well, there you have it ... There's a lot more to being an electrician than 'runnin' wahr.' A proper apprenticeship will introduce you to most areas of the trade. Now, a funny thing happens during the third year of the apprenticeship. Going in, it is common for the apprentices to believe that they're "almost" electricians, and just need to put in some more time. By the time the year is done, their attitude has changed, to one of awe - at how much they have yet to learn! Naturally, by the time he's a journeyman, the apprentice will have at least $5000 tied up in tools, know how to handle a variety of jobs, and even have a passing acquaintance with patching drywall, simple framing, etc. Is this "too much skill" for a guy to run a new receptacle? Perhaps .... but that's just one job. His next job might be completely different. Yet another reason electricians don't work for day labor rates.
The school can be tough some time, but I won't call anyone an electrician who hasn't been (I may have to take that back). You have to know a little about most every trade and aspect of construction in order to be a good electrician. There aren't very many other trades that stay on a job from start to finish.
>> There aren't very many other trades that stay on a job from start to finish. <<
???
He meant that most trades only see the job at one point .... they're not there from the first hole in the ground to the C of O. For example, the plumber can go years before he sees a floor with carpet on it. The cement guy might not even see the framed shell. The roofer is gone long before the landscaping crew shows up.
Others have the opposite view: neither the painter nor the floor guys are ever 'in the weather.' The place is closed in, and often heated and lit by the time they show.
>> He meant that most trades only see the job at one point <<. A few others that come more than once are (off the top of my head): Plumbers, roofers, landscapers, HVAC, painters, siding guys, concrete guys, cabinet guys, metal fireplace guys, low voltage electrical, trim carpenters, flooring guys, gutter guy. Even the framers have to come back occasionally to fix stuff that the trades tore up... The appliance delivery/install guys come once to deliver the dishwasher, disposal and microwave (all to be installed by the trades and then again to deliver/install the range and perhaps the optional stuff like Fridge, washer/dryer. Heck - the porta john guy comes once a week. :-)
BTW - the only time electricians see carpet on my jobs is when they have to come back to fix something. Normally they come at rough-in time and trim-out time and that is it. Every once in a while they will come for under slab work right near the very beginning of the job.
>> For example, the plumber can go years before he sees a floor with carpet on it. << Same as electrician, again, only when he has to fix something.
Others have the opposite view: neither the painter nor the floor guys are ever 'in the weather.' Painters come in right after the drywall and trim - no heat or light then... and it's kinda hard to paint the outside of the house without being "in the weather". The flooring guy has to come in with the finish flooring in the bathrooms before the plumber can do his trim-out again, no heat or light then. Then maybe later to do hardwoods and again to do carpet....
Others have the opposite view: neither the painter nor the floor guys are ever 'in the weather.' Painters come in right after the drywall and trim - no heat or light then... and it's kinda hard to paint the outside of the house without being "in the weather". The flooring guy has to come in with the finish flooring in the bathrooms before the plumber can do his trim-out again, no heat or light then. Then maybe later to do hardwoods and again to do carpet...
In my area, if it is below 62*, the drywallers and painters won't warranty their work, so some type of temp heat is installed.
The temp heat usually ends up being the homeowners furnace or the building heating system, so all of that drywall dust gets sucked into the ductwork and it kills the equipment.
If there is power, they bring their own lights. No power = generator... or sit home without pay.
Hardwood and field fab laminate or anthing else involving glue gets heat or AC if the humidity is too high.... glues I can understand, but I guess hardwood floors were never installed before the invention of air conditioning.
I was on a tract townhome job where the painter was doing exterior trim *outside* when it was just a shade over 32*. Only gotta last a year.
For example, the plumber can go years before he sees a floor with carpet on it.
Saw that and thought "notices there's carpet on the floor"
Joe H
My signs say: "Carpet is installed. Please remove shoes". Thing is though, I sequence my jobs so that no one goes in the house after carpet is in except the painters and the cleaning people, so I don't normally need those signs. Apinters know that as do the cleaners.
When trying to get bids from different subs make sure you have some kind of specs. Otherwise you will not be getting apples to apples bids. Go to one of the box stores and buy one of those DIY books on electric. Get some idea of what is involved so you can make some meaningful specs. Simple things like ware you want the subpanel to go, the size of it including extra space for future circuits you might want to add down the road. How many plugs and switches you will want. Lighting fixtures you will want. Phone lines and cable runs if you want him to do that. As much info as possible will 1) make all bids cover the same items and 2) give the bidder enough confidence in what is asked of him so he does not have to add a fudge factor for unanticipated items.