Hi All,
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The foundation of my new home was poured undersize and I have an excessive sill plate overhang in some areas (up to 2 ¼â€) with a couple of exposed treaded rods. I cracked my foundation with a weed whacker and exposed another rod. None of the exposed rods are installed per specs and the Florida Building Code showing a 7†embedment. 4†is typical the installation in my home.
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The builder’s (Drees Homes) proposed remedy is to drill shorter new threaded rods next to the existing ones and tie into them with a coupling. They claim that they can do this from the exterior and the house is still habitable while repairs are being conducted.
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One of my neighbors ran into somebody that was on the crew that poured many of the foundations in this sub-division and he stated that they souped up the concrete to make it faster to work.
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I believe that my foundation is faulty. How do I have it tested? The builder’s repair seems excessive at best.
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To answer some inevitable questions from you, I did not hire a home inspector to monitor the construction. I did talk to an attorney and it is cost prohibitive. The builder used a private provider inspection firm ILO of the County Building Department Inspectors.
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Regards,
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Jaxhomeowner
Edited 3/2/2007 4:47 pm ET by jaxhomeowner
Replies
How do I have it tested?
you call a local soil/concrete testing lab and they will come out and core the slab, test the cores. Do not let them swiss hammer the slab, that test is a joke. always core the slab. you can do it in a closet where it wont be notice.
What does it mean to swiss hammer a slab? Drill lots of small holes?
swiss hammer is a rebound hammer that test the concrete by rebound. Like you hitting your hammer against the slab. But its a joke. I can make mine read anything you want. You need an independant testing lab to core the slab. Not the concrete company, not the contractor, but you. It cost about $150
Not to over simplify, but almost like whacking a tuning fork against the slab? Yikes. All I know about concrete is that it is heavy, and the swiss hammer strikes me as a bad idea.
He already Swiss Hammered it.
With a weedwhacker.
It failed.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
roflmao.....
BB - your comments?
poured too wet, but one of them came close to 4000 so it not the concrete supplier. Its the contractor. the finishers. I would be seeing a lawyer since code required minimum of 2500 psi
How can you say it wasn't the supplier? I'd say it in not unusual for a house slab to take 3 trucks - with turndown footings and all. One truck coulda been wet and the others good. I have instructed my concrete guys that if a truck comes in wet - and they do sometimes - to write down the truck number, call dispatch, and send it back.
Not really sure, but I'd think the procedure at this point would be for this HO to go after the builder, builder goes after sub, and sub goes after concrete supplier. Then the supplier gets out the concrete tickets where water added is noted and signed for. Also, these finishers have to be careful what they sign, and really should keep the truck receipts. Or, it coulda maybe (you tell me) been too little cement in one truck.
Edited 3/24/2007 9:30 pm ET by Matt
most if not all concrete plants are computer controlled. so messing up a mix is hard to do, since one of the cores look good. I would put 99% of the blame on the contractor.
Like I said, it's not entirely uncommon for us to get a truck that arives on site wet. They have slump gauges on them, although they don't exactly advertise it.
I agree with you Matt.
The builder's site super should have been in attendance for the pour, and before the pour,to make sure the plans and specs were being followed.
Possibly the concrete was billed to him, one does not know the circumstances until the tickets are produced.Where are they? BB is probably correct in thinking the screedmen asked for water, and the tickets should show it.
But I will also agree with you Matt on the mix. Even though plants are 'puterized, does not prevent them from getting things screwed up. A little extra fly ash or slag, with a sticky silo gate, can ruin a load also. Does the plant use regurgitated concrete aggregate ? Get out the microscope. Anyway the rock looks small to me.
I would have thought a conscientious builder would have had test cylinders made,especially in a tract situation where several slabs are pouring in the same go. A coupla hundred bucks then would have saved his bacon now.
But, I have also had a pump operator call for water,and the RM guys complied, without my consent. Another story for another time.
The builder signed the contract with the buyer.
It is the builders responsiblity to live up to the contract .
If the finishers failed in their contract to the builder, he may sue them.
Getting the cores broken, is only the first step.
Eyewitness please! Mix design and tickets please!
Edited 3/26/2007 7:59 am ET by ericicf
>> Does the plant use regurgitated concrete aggregate ? <<
What is that?
>> I would have thought a conscientious builder would have had test cylinders made,especially in a tract situation where several slabs are pouring in the same go. <<
I've never seen test cylinders done in residential construction. Regarding that, what do the cylinder containers look like? Can I pour my own during concrete pours or must this be done by a concrete test company? Obviously a concrete test company would break the cylinders, but maybe they would say they need to make them in order to certify them?
BrownBag?
BTW - I talked to a superintendent of a medium sized builder a while back. He said he currently had 49 houses under construction in 6 neighborhoods. Obviously this guy can't give the kind of supervision you talked about - if any at all. I would think that all this guy does is schedule subs and fix situations that are already broken. Probably the only inspections he schedules are the framing inspection (after the trades) and the CO inspection. Not saying this is in any way right, but I think it may be the norm with large builders. That is why I work for a small builder where, as a superintendent I have a relatively small work load. I still work 10 hr days and a lot of Saturdays trying to make things come out as good as possible though...
Some ( not many) RM co's replace rock agg with pulverized or recycled concrete, in very small amounts.
If you are a regular buyer the RM co will send their QC guy to your site to make cylinders, providing you have a valid reason. Otherwise learning to make your own requires a little common sense and some basic knowledge. The standard cylinders are not expensive to buy.Procedure has to be followed.
BB can better explain.
Small Co's build better as their shirts are on the line every time out and they care.
Big B's use heavy advertising , deep pockets, volume, and timely delivery schedules to make hay. That can make up for the difference,we all know.
this seems to be up your alley
Understand that there are only three kinds of concrete. The kind thats properly done, the kind that's got cracks, and the kind that hasn't cracked yet. Jim
three type of concretethose that are poured right
those that are poured wrong
and those that are just plain screwed up
Brownbag is right, get it core drilled and have the cylinders tested. Most concrete reaches 40% of it's total strength in 7 days, so at this point your reading are either going to be close or way off.
Second, contact your local building dept. Each individual inspection service operates under the permission of the local BD. They still have the right to override their inspections and force repairs if necessary.
Third, if your walls are 2x4 construction and you have 2 1/4 overhang, your walls are only sitting on 1 1/4. Not good. This would be another inpsection issue with the county. Framing inspections in this state are a pain in the a@$. But they are there for a reason.
Hi All,
Note the response that I received from a local building department official. With binding arbitration clauses in sales contracts and a "right to repair" law, professional ethics is the only thing to keep builders in check in Florida.
Regards, Jaxhomeowner
"I guess it’s time for me to be the bearer of bad tidings. Florida Statute 553.791 was adopted by the State Legislature approximately 3 ½ years ago. This is a statute that allows a property owner to hire a private building inspection firm to do all of the required inspections on any given project (residential or commercial). The property owner is required to submit an affidavit to the local jurisdiction (City of Jacksonville/Duval County) releasing the Building Official of any responsibility or liability for the work or the inspections performed on the property. They are still required to submit inspection results to the jurisdiction in a timely fashion, to maintain records, to acquire necessary permits, etc. Builders who purchase lots in new subdivisions or develop new subdivisions to build homes are the property owner until the home buyer closes."<!----><!----><!---->
Edited 3/3/2007 5:17 am ET by jaxhomeowner
I guess I'm a bit confused. Are your exterior walls block or wood? If they're block, how would you ever see the tie-rods? If they're wood, how old is this house? I thought they stopped using wood for the ext. of houses years ago in Florida. I can't imagine trying to adhere to these Florida building codes using studs 'n plywood." If I were a carpenter"
The exterior walls are 2 x 4 wood with 1/2" OSB sheeting, house wrap and siding, which is typical in Florida.
The reason that I can see threaded rods is that the slab was poured undersize and the framers built the wall to spec and did not flag the overhang. The individuals installing the rods probably had "Git R Done" hats on and could not be bothered with details. The inspections must have been drive by. The house was new in Nov. 2005.
jax
Edited 3/3/2007 12:33 pm ET by jaxhomeowner
<<this is what I been complaining about for the last twenty years. Foundation are the most important of the system and they leave it in the hand of a high school drop out dope head, because he wants to pour wet so he can go home early. Once the finisher are off the job, they got their money and will never be back. Why should they care.>>Yeah. What he said. <G>And don't even get me going on site prep.I'm puzzled. How many linear feet of wall has this 2-1/4" overhang?And how much of your foundation did you actually remove with a weed whacker? (I gotta try that some time -- I guess you learn something new every day.)OK, no more levity. This is actually sounding like it could be a fairly serious matter.What I am wondering is if there were inspectors on this job, regardless of who was paying them, someone's name has to be on some document somewhere saying that they inspected this. And presumably that document should not be real difficult to find.In other words, somebody somewhere in some position of responsibility has certified that this home meets the minimum prescriptive guidelines.You also have a building code, a state agency responsible for public safety, and an ostensibly fairly simple investigation that could be conducted in the course of one afternoon.You might in the course of your research check out the results of the Oklahoma City investigations after those tornados a few years ago. They determined that 85% of the damage to that community would simply not have occurred if the houses in the affected area were built to the standards that were already in place at the time of the construction. That is, most of the damage was caused not so much by the direct effect of wind, but the indirect effect of wind carrying chunks of improperly constructed homes around the neighborhood. Missing or improperly placed anchor bolts figured prominently on this one.See where I am headed with this? If you are in a high wind area, and if this house is really as bad as it sounds, you have a pretty strong case for both yourself and your neighbors.If we're talking about a few feet of wall hanging over on a short bump in the wall line that is one thing. If you have a significant amount of wall surface that is not attached to the foundation in a costal wind area that is quite another matter.If you have a little bit of form flash falling off the edge, that is one thing. If you have a structural failure in the foundation at an anchor point that is quite another.If it's the latter, you should have no trouble at all finding a lawyer and a structural engineer willing to help you and your neighbors.
Down there in sunny FLA, the building owners are required to hire a private inspector to certify to the AHJ that the construction passes inspection and meets code.
The builder of any spec house just happens to be the owner of said house until some preivate party, like our OP, buys it.
Oh yeah the AHJ is immune to litigation.
They don't have drive-by inspections, they have two-martini-lunch inspections.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
"Oh yeah the AHJ is immune to litigation."Government Employees, Yes. But even that is limited to when they are only working as employeed. Boy I am not stating that very well.Yes, they are not liable if they miss a critical item. However, if they do something outside of the employee, such as take a bribe to not inspect a critical area then they can be used. But typically not the government agenecy that hires them (where the dough is).But a private inspection service is a completely different situation.Ask BB how much O&E insurance his company carries..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
one million on each employee and five million on each work vehicle.
I understood that.What I am asking is about the private party who certified that the work was acceptable.Sounds like they may have screwed up, no?
Talk to your neighbors about a Class Action. Then find a lawyer.
SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
Sorry about your troubles so far. I hope it all works out in the end.
Concrete should be tested when at least 28 days old not sooner. I would have a core test done because at ths point its the only way to play it safe. How thick are the walls? Is the home on a slab or foundation?
Here's a link that will shed some light on the test itself.
http://www.nrmca.org/aboutconcrete/cips/35p.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmidt_hammerread the very last sentance over and over.
I am confused. Why does the last sentance in the link you sent me mean anthing to me? I suggested a core test and provided a link .
"Using this method of testing is classed as indirect as it does not give a direct measurement of the strength of the material. It simply gives an indication based on surface properties, it is only suitable for making comparisons between samples".
It simply gives an indication based on surface properties,basically, trying to stress the point that swiss hammer are jokes
Yes, my link provided a step by step explanation of "core samples " I think swiss tests are worthless myself.
After reading further it appears as if the home is built on a slab. This makes the test that much more important. I don't see how he can fix it by drilling through the sides. It sounds as if the rebar is on grade with the concrete on top of it rather than suspended in the concrete and the rebar protrudes out the sides on the slab is the situation? If so what sticks out the sides is not the issue its the fact the rebar is not suspended. He can't fix this problem by drilling through the sides unless he has 20' 5/8 bits, lol. Even then he would do more damage by trying to fix it this way than leaving it be.
I would think the house needs to be jacked up. If fiber mesh was used in the pour then I would leave poured floor alone and install a new perimeter foundation
What those words say to me is that it gives a hint, but not a definitive direct test result.
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If I had time, I'd dig up the post I did a few years back w/pics of a couple of guys using a chain on a stick as an imitation Swiss Hammer, testing about 800 concrete balconies for "rusted out" rebar spots...A few people posted replies arguing that this was common and acceptable practice....wish I'd know the term Swiss Hammer then...I'd a hit 'em with it !!!!Lord, the things they get up to in Florida.....& God Bless those legislators.....
It's expensive, at least for curiosity sake, but this is probably where a structural engineer used to such situations would be a good idea. He could handle all the testing and suggest methods of fixing things that are screwed up.
An inspector would have to leave structural questions to the engineer anyway, since that's not what they do, nor is that what they are legally able to do. Even our past inspector, who is also an engineer, has notes all over his reports to consult an expert in each trade for appropriate repairs. Talk about passing the buck! Insurance makes us all do funny things.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
this is what I been complaining about for the last twenty years. Foundation are the most important of the system and they leave it in the hand of a high school drop out dope head, because he wants to pour wet so he can go home early. Once the finisher are off the job, they got their money and will never be back. Why should they care.If I had my way, I make the contractor jack the house. rip out the slab and redo. But that would not happen in a million years.
this is what I been complaining about for the last twenty years. Foundation are the most important of the system and they leave it in the hand of a high school drop out dope head, because he wants to pour wet so he can go home early. Once the finisher are off the job, they got their money and will never be back. Why should they care.
If I had my way, I make the contractor jack the house. rip out the slab and redo. But that would not happen in a million years.
Oh! Brownbagg already said that. (|:>)SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
that kid worked for me once...Only once! Toldf him if he added any more water, I'd wrap the hose around his neck and stick the end of it...Oops, this is a family site
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<LOL>Dr. Piffin's controversial but highly effective treatment for laziness AND stupidity in concrete laborers.
The concrete testing has been covered...
I'm still confused though. These threaded rods you are talking about - are they laying flat in the slab, or they vertical and tying the walls to the concrete slab?
Or, is this a pre or post tensioned slab?
The treaded rods are vertical and tie the top plate of the wall to the foundation. A nut with a washer secures the rod to the top plate.
A hole is drilled in the slab through the bottom plate, the rod is set with epoxy. The rods intended function is two fold 1) to prevent uplift of the roof in a windstorm event and 2) If the roof does separate to help prevent the walls from collapsing on the inhabitants. The Florida Building Code and the structural details of my home specify a 7" embedment. The rods cannot perform their intended function of you can see them.
That same detail is used here in coastal areas (NC). Maybe part of my confusion is that I think at least twice you typed "treaded rod ", where as another time you typed "threaded". My spelling & tying is not the best either... I was wondering if you were meaning treated rod - whatever that would be... ?? Reading the other's posts, I'm not sure at least some of the other's understood what the rods were either. I think at least some thought it was rebar.
Anyway, at the risk of stating the obvious - it sounds like your problem is 2 fold - the concrete may not be up to strength, and the walls of your home are off the edge of the slab meaning that the tie down rods are installed too close to the edge of the slab. My guess is that the slab was likely fractured by the drilling that took place when the rod(s) were installed. Your weed wacker just knocked off the fractured piece.
Regarding the fact that the framers installed walls that were up to 2.5" off the edge of the slab (I think that is what you said), were the walls factory assembled, or site built? Just curious. Was it just one wall, or several walls?
Not that it helps you at all, but here we have a surveyor set all house corners, regardless of the type of foundation (slab, crawl or basement), but mistakes do happen. Still curious.
Here is an idea: tell the builder you will accept his fix if he is willing to pay for a engineer of your choosing to evaluate the fix. If you want to get the concrete bored and tested as brownbag suggested, you may have to pay for that yourself - as IMHO weak concrete is not necessarily indicated. Yea - if you drill a hole in a slab 1/2" from the edge - it will crack. If the concrete testing is only $150 like someone said, and it were my house, I'd eat that in a heart beat.
Edited 3/3/2007 10:28 pm ET by Matt
""My guess is that the slab was likely fractured by the drilling that took place when the rod(s) were installed. Your weed wacker just knocked off the fractured piece."" Been following this thread, and I agree with your statement here.
Please forgive the typo - threaded rod is the correct nomenclature.
The walls are site built. Three of the four main walls have sill plate overhangs of 1" to 2 1/2"
The builder has not been easy to deal with. They did two faulty repairs on exposed rods and claimed that they could amend the finalized building permit to do it. I checked with the county building department and the builder (Drees) must pull a new permit, submit engineering and have the work inspected. Drees then pulled a permit with false information, they listed themselves as the property owner and listed their private provider inspector to do the inspections. This permit was cancelled by the county. I made it clear to the builder that I wanted to use the City of Jacksonville Building department to do the inspections!
I will have the slab tested as suggested and post the results.
Jaxhomeowner
Edited 3/4/2007 6:06 am ET by jaxhomeowner
Where the engineers PDF says to attch rods directly to the angle, I wonder, "With what!?A little dab of PL, some baling wire? a spot of welding rod? And there is no pre-requisite in this proposed repair ffor testing the slab first to be sure it can handle all those extra holes in the perimeter when it is so obvious that the crete itself is in a state of failure!
If I were the contractor being asked to do this repair, the first thing I would do is have my own engineer test and spec that item. other wise, I could end up destroying what little is left of the edge of this slab.I have lots of other ideas here, but they don't meana thing without knowing how this tests.
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>> The walls are site built. Three of the four main walls have sill plate overhangs of 1" to 2 1/2" <<
It seems like the carpenter's could have adjusted the house size some, but maybe not if the 2nd floor floor system and roof is trusses - depending on the layout. Also, it would seem that a self respecting carpenter wouldn't hang a 2x4 wall out 2 1/2" and would "blow the whistle". Maybe they did and were told to "go with it". It's all hindsight at this point.
The fact though that you say 3 of the 4 main walls are off 1 to 2.5" to me says that it was maybe not a survey mistake - it sounds like just sloppy work on the part of the slab crew. Normally the concrete guys who do monolithic slab houses are somewhat more skilled than regular flat work guys. See attached pic.
It makes me love the guys I use even more. Not only do they check their "boxing" dimensions but they check for square - as they should. I spot check them.
BTW - this is the first time I've heard bad about Drees. They build in my area too.
Edited 3/4/2007 9:09 am ET by Matt
this house should of been build a couple inches smaller so it fit on the slab square.ericicf, is just messing around, no harm, quite lol.
"ericicf, is just messing around, no harm, quite lol."That was my read on him - play-acting
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message to me begoneSamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
Jax,
It looks to me that in the original "String trimmer " photo that the epoxy connection also had some other problems.
1) Not enough epoxy in the hole to completely cover the threads and provide secure connection.
2) Dust left in the hole after drilling. The epoxy bonded with the dust coating the inner walls of the hole and never actually bonded to solid concrete. No one took the time to wash and blow out the holes. If that happened on one it happened on all of them is my bet.
3) Holes may be oversized for that diameter rod. Each epoxy has a specified diameter of hole/ rod diameter specified.
Epoxy is great stuff, but only works if the prep work is done correctly. Here you have to have a certified inspector on site and verify EACH hole was prepped correctly if it is permitted work.
Dovetail,
Thank you for your observations and comments. Clearly my structural problems are worse than I suspected.
"Premature catastrophic failure in the event of a hurricane" comes to mind.
I will contact a lab to test the slab ASAP and post the results here.
Jax
I wiah I could help but my nearest lab is tallahasees
Brownbagg,
Attached is the compression report of the cores.
#1 is the left one on the image marked "All"
#2 is the center one
#3 is the right one.
Jax
I'd worry more about tornadoes than hurricances in that house.
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He doesnt have any worrys about tornado, they only hit trailer parks
Sheeze Louise! I sure hope eric doesn't live in a trailer park. He'll be all over you like stink on a skunk.
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I am concerned over any major wind event. This extends to my neighbors. Even if my house is the worst one, the flying debris will affect them.
J
Hi Dovetail,
Here are some more photos for your amusement.
Jax
UGLY!!!!!!
jax,
That is not good.
I hope these aren't all from your own house. If they are I would be calling the most aggresive shark of a lawyer I knew.
I am seriously beginning to wonder if the framers aren't the ones responsible for this mess.
If I look at the last set of pics I feel like whoever drilled the holes and placed the epoxy did so after the walls were standing.
It would have been impossible to have missed seeing what has happened with the installation if you were just dealing with a slab at the time the installs were done.
It would be mindlessy easy (literally) to drill from above after the walls were stood and never even care what was happening to the edge of the slab.
At any rate, what you have is clearly not work that meets code, nor industry standards even under the loosest interpretation of that term.
Might think about having your own engineer come out, as well along with the testing agency. Be interesting to hear what both parties say.
I'm no concrete expert, but maybe someone that is could comment. Why is there no evidence of any aggregate in the pictures showing the broken areas? It also looks like foreign matter in the mix in some places.Jerry
I JUST READ THIS THREAD AND IT MAKES ME WANT TO THROW UP DINNER!
I am in Jacksonville, I know the engineer who drew that repair. The work that you see in these pics is the reason I don't build anything new in this town. I have received FHB since I was a teenager. I have strived to learn and take pride in every job I have ever done. The jack-legs that do the work in the pictures beat me out of work and the HO's don't care about the quality, only the price. This is a hard town to build a company in. The 1st tier high end jobs are controlled by a handful of old school firms. All else is price oriented and some jerk who can walk away from a job like the one in these photos cuts your throat by a few bucks and gets the jobs. The framers don't install the clips and rods. Tie down firms come behind the framers and quickly install straps and all-thread per their own engineering. It would be more expensive to let the framers (skilled) do it. I always do my own. Unfortunately the private inspectors are employed by the "builders" and they are easy. To me it has become a joke. Unfortunately what we need around here is a category 4 hurricane. That will separate the men from the boys. The inspector who "inspected" this home should have his license revoked. His E&O insurance should pay to have this home destroyed and rebuilt. Paying all the HO's moving and living expenses. The builder or qualifying agent should be fined and if further infractions occur, his license should be limited or revoked. These jack-leg tradesmen should be run out of town. There is more to this than making money. But again if the HO's want cheap, I guess someone will give it to them......Literally. I won't be that someone. I switched to investing. So far I haven't regretted it. Don't get me wrong I made money in construction and remodeling. I have just chosen not to compete in this arena. And I live in a brick craftsman built in 1940 by real builders.It should always be a goal of these slobs to see if they can make the house outlast the mortgage.
RANT COMPLETE..................Scott OUT
Good input.
I hadn't yet heard of the "tie down subs", a level of specialization not yet sunk to here.
I am wondering if this type of shoddy workmanship is common enough in a sub-division that the buyers/homeowners couldn't file a class action law suit against everybody involved.
No lawyer here but sure makes me wonder.
Least I would be doing is making as public a scene about this as possible, newspapers, local Tv ., elected officials the whole nine yards. I bite back .
Hey Scott.
You too busy investing to get together over a cup of coffee (or something) and discuss this rage you have been building up? 662-2325.
Someone beat me to the observation that the rod holes weren't cleaned and the epoxy was a bit light. Not to mention missing the slab altogether! I've seen these "specialized" tiedown crews come in, drill their holes, hit them with a blast of air, squirt in the epoxy and bend in the allthread. NOT one wire brush to their name.
After the slab is checked out I would suggest a redraw of the anchor fix. Instead of straight down, the holes can be drilled in at an angle away from the perimeter and still develop the withdrawal specs needed.
Also, I would recommend a tension test to see if the rest of the tiedowns are doing their job. If one fails I would recommend a complete retrofit - new holes, new allthread and epoxy. Cut the existing allthread carefully to length bend it sideways to meet the new rod and a coupling nut should be long enough to develop the proper tension.
I was in talking to my engineer last week and they had a sample of a threaded rod with a made to order cable and coupler attached. Don't remember exactly the figures but he said the attachment allows for an offset from the vertical of several inches so that a length of threaded rod from the top plates would be easier to attach.
Thank you
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Scott,
I have filed complaints with the DBPR against the builder and a third party has filed against the private provider inspection company. There are some other problem homes out there.
I did not expect to buy a perfect home but I did expect it to be built to code. Harmony Homes was the builder, they were bought out by Drees Homes before I closed. Drees brought in some managers from out of state and they do not have a clue about the Florida Building Code and have been trying to BS me for a year. This is another thread though.
Florida Statute 553.791 allows for the Private Provider Inspection Firms. I have contacted my Senator about the lack of oversight of the PPI's and amending the statute. The developers have more resources than I do and are trying to eliminate all oversight. Let's not let public health and safety get in the way of profit.
I have contacted an engineering firm to core test the slab and come up with a fix.
I contacted an attorney and was told that the cost of litigation was prohibitive and that my recourse could only be against the builder and not the PPI. I will get a second opinion on this.
Jax
Edited 3/6/2007 5:19 am ET by jaxhomeowner
Edited 3/6/2007 1:02 pm ET by jaxhomeowner
The cost of litigation is one reason that class action suit was mentioned.If enough houses are involved and the builder has dep enough pockets, the legal beagles will be lined up to help you.
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great rant, I totally agree. And to answer others questions about how much of this goes on in this town? YOU WOULD NOT BELIEVE IT. I worked for three home builders here over the last 15 years and I know a lot of people in the trade. One of the companies was a top 3 builder in the country. They were the best at doing the right thing and yet they still produced a poorly built home. It is about the dollar. The builders want cheap prices but want top quality. Sorry but the two go together no more than Britney Spears and panties. There is a saying about what you can have in just about anything.
If you want fast then it won't be cheap.
If you want quality it won't fast or cheap.
If you want cheap and fast you won't get quality.
Or something along those lines.
Back to how things go here in Jville.. I will quaranty that I could take any person to any subdivision or any home being built and show you at least 5 to 10 things that are incorrect about the home being built poorly or not to code.
It is a virus that has infected this industry and it will only get worse if we allow it.
Interesting group here. I am new but look forward to reading the post
somebody here said FAST - CHEAP- QUALITYpick two.
I walked through a house recently approved for sheetrock by a private "inspector" that had to potentially life threatening structural deficiencies. I stopped the next day and the super ran me off his job (I was polite). I called the building inspector and he didn't call me back. ACQ PT used for structural load bearing columns with regular un-galv. toenails and bright zinc sheetrock type screws and huge oversized holes (FLANGE TO FLANGE) in mid span on regular I-joists with a bedroom on second floor bearing on top. The next day there were small blocks connecting the web horizontally and the sheetrockers were covering it up. A load is bending that floor system PERIOD. It's not a question of IF but WHEN. Clueless subs scare me. Now I see this thread and it shows more "Passed" work covered up, painted, and CO'd. Ray Charles could see a pattern through six feet of dirt and a coffin lid. I think even a minor hurricane would flatten these "Wind Code" crap boxes. The house mentioned above was $700K+. I have slowed my construction activities to a minimum wondering what I want to do when I grow up. I think I'm going to stick to kitchens and bath remodels and leave the rest to the McBuilders who are taking over here. Or maybe i'll get my CBO (Certfied Building Official) licensure and set up a company that works for the HO's interest. I'd probably have to go to work in an armored Hummer (with optional gun ports in the doors) but I could write that off!!!!!!!
Scott Out
<< . . . and set up a company that works for the HO's interest. I'd probably have to go to work in an armored Hummer (with optional gun ports in the doors) but I could write that off!!!!!!!>>If that business plan takes off I'll ride shotgun for you. <G>
Or maybe i'll get my CBO (Certfied Building Official) licensure and set up a company that works for the HO's interest. I'd probably have to go to work in an armored Hummer (with optional gun ports in the doors) but I could write that off!!!!!!!
I am with you on that! I do not know how some of these people sleep at night.
I was fired once from a job as a superintendent where I was there for over a year and I took over a house that was ready for drywall and I noticed the framing had passed inspection but the windows in the master bedroom did not meet egress....
I had scheduled the framer to come back and fix it and he told my boss who told me to move forward with the insulation and drywall. I told him no way and he fired me.
What for? defiance is how they stated it.. failure to do my job..
I am with you though... I would love to work on the side of the HO's interest...
Unfortunately the Building Dept. made the newspaper again today.......
Jax THINKS he has foundation issues. CHECK THIS OUT!
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/030807/met_8410113.shtml
I just want the posters and contributors in this thread to realize what we are dealing with. I have been in municipalities that don't even have a building dept. whose residents and HO's are better off. In Jax's situation it will take persistence and pain to get through all the BS and red tape but in the end he will win. I met a young lady who recently fought a 10 year battle over a foundation built on what we call "muck" which is basically a swampy layer with peanut butter consistency that is exposed when the lot is scraped. She just quit paying her mortgage payments and sued everyone. The mortgage co., the builder, the private inspector, the subs., the concrete co. She ended up getting compensated and now she is on a state board. I will try to get her and Jax in contact.
Scott
The building department has major issues above paperwork. Illegal contractors in this city has gone crazy. No insurances or required license seems to be the norm. Duval County refuses to do a sting operation like Clay and St. Johns counties have done.
The other story in that artical is the private provider inspection company BPS. They are one of the worse ones here in town along with a few others. My experience is that they are no better maybe even worse than the city inspections.
Who suffers from all of this? The home owner
Hi All,
Interesting article, Builders Professional Services is the firm that was paid to inspect my home.
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/030807/met_8410113.shtml
Jax
Edited 3/8/2007 7:31 pm ET by jaxhomeowner
One of my favorite true-ism's.
That would be: Good, Fast, Cheap - you only get to pick two - the other you don't get.
Good + Fast - won't be Cheap.
Good + Cheap - won't be Fast.
Fast + Cheap - won't be Good - these are the clients you need to avoid, unfortunately many fall into this catagory. I don't work for them.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Good and cheap are mutually exclusive.
Cheap means: shoddy and of poor quality, durablity or utility. Which is not the same as inexpensive.
Definitions of cheap on the Web: * relatively low in price or charging low pricesSamT
Because it has been misused so much that it's meaning is drifting. So, now we no longer have a word which has the meaning that cheap did.
Driving nails with a rock wired on a stick, doesn't make a rock wired to a stick a hammer, to anyone who has ever used a good hammer. But, a rock, wired to a stick does meet the definition of hammer. It is just clumsy and inaccurate.
"now we no longer have a word which has the meaning that cheap did. "Just how old are you?Webster Dictionary, 1913
Searching for: Cheap
Found 4 hit(s). Cheap (Page: 243)Cheap (?), n. [AS. ceáp bargain, sale, price; akin to D. Koop purchase, G. Kauf, ICel. kaup bargain. Cf. Cheapen, Chapman, Chaffer, Cope, v. i.] A bargain; a purchase; cheapness. [Obs.] The sack that thou hast drunk me would have bought me lights as good cheap at the dearest chandler's in Europe. Shak.Cheap (Page: 243)Cheap, a. [Abbrev. fr. good cheap": a good purchase or bargain; cf. F. bon marché, à bon marché. See Cheap, n., Cheapen.]1. Having a low price in market; of small cost or price, as compared with the usual price or the real value. Where there are a great sellers to a few buyers, there the thing to be sold will be cheap. Locke.SamT
Hi Jerry,
I contacted a building contractor on this and he told me that adding too much water to the concrete mixture allows the aggregate to settle.
Jax
There's a littel bit of truth to that, but settling means DOWN, not into the slab away from the formed edges. Not one of your photos shows ANY hard aggregate at all. That is a great mystery to me. I'm sure others may have some theories. Part of the answer is too much water which also weakend a mix and brings on more shrinkage craks. But there is more here than meets the eye. Your core samples wil be enlightening.
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Of course the framers did sloppy work, but the slab was wrong to begin with too.But those framers were brain dead to leave it the way they did. That last picture you can see the gob of epoxy they shot in and hangs below the rod.But did you read this guys descripotion that the code there requires hese threaded roods to be epoxied into 7" of the crete and extend to the top plat for hold down? It is easy aas sin to know when you have drilled to a certain depth with any hammer dril I have ever used. You just set the stop on the drill for the depth and drill in your sleep until it stops! I'm wqilling to bet they used a 5" drill bit instead of having one long enough to meet code.But like you said, it was imposssible to create this situation without knowing about it. and they could probably have adjusted the size of the building an inch or so to avoid most of this. The framers should have stoipped when they saw it was out of square. The concrete guys should have used less water and a real tape measure to lay out.
The guy in charge should have caught it all before issuing a check.
The inspector should have gotten out of his car.And I'm thinking about becoming an independent inspector. There seems to be a market. and I wouldn't have to beat up my body as much.
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NO, the Site Super should have checked the sub's prep before the pour.
If he was doing his job he would have caught the "out-of-square" and lack of
appropriate rebar, and called off the pour.
Quality Control happens during prep , not after the fact.
The Tester should have also red-flagged the job, for remedial, immediately,
in his report, if the slump was off limits. Some testers also do rebar inspections
in our area, and issue instructions on the spot, if necessary.
I see the whole issue as an organizational breakdown.
Fire the Super, the Sub, and the Tester.
The pour should never have occured.
I can't disagree with that Eric. Everyone connected to this should be fired.
Glad you are still in this
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we don't test residential and then client will over ride us. Iis all about money
OK we have pretty much discussed the despicable workmanship on this new house. And the rant by Scott, though not particularly enlightening (old news to me) about the state of the US building industry, as driven by penny wise homeowners just reminded me how hard it is to compete in a new home market. And this private inspector stuff makes me throw-up. That coming from a guy who has 3 inspections scheduled TODAY with a jerk of a public employed inspector...
Now I'm gonna play devils advocate. Looking at the bottom pic in the OP's recent post: 86548.60 the one called DSC00289.JPG I'd say it looks like the house was in that condition from well before completion - I gotta assume the tie-down guys came in sometime before sheetrock - unless the HO painted the foundation after he purchased the house this particular anchor bolt/tiedown doesn't look newly exposed. Here is my question: Is the HO blind??? Would anyone here buy and take delivery of a new car with a flat tire? Would you order a meal at a restaurant that was infested with millions of cockroaches and enough flies to make you wonder where the mountain of sheet was? Like Scott said - this stuff is fueled by homebuyers who only care about saving a penny - so where is the HO's responsibility in this!!!!!!! I'll stop now before I get insulting...
What is most disturbing to me is the apparent lack of aggregate and the possible answer to why. I have seen the concrete crews come in and float to the bottom plate with a sand mix similar to a shower floor mud. I've even seen them use prepackaged wall mud from a tile supply. (called Easy Float) I would take a 1 or 2 pound sledge and gently tap around the broken bolt holes and see if it scales off. How do you compete against someone willing to do that????? Unfortunately for this HO it is extremely difficult to win this fight. The Florida laws are weighted to the business. The state feels if someone is savvy enough to wade through their govt. swamp of red tape and requirements, sit in a room for 2 ten hour days and take a test (now administered by a private provider NOT the state board in a cost cutting move) they KNOW you promise to not screw anyone over. SCOUTS HONOR. Unfortunately the smaller and starter homes get all the worst of the worst craftsmanship (the HO's often can't afford to fix or fight). On the other hand I bought an 1100 foot house built in the 50's last week that even has CMU block interior walls with poured lintels and tie beams throughout (I call it "Stonehenge" and I think one day scientists will excavate around it and marvel at it's ingenious design). So basically because it has passed inspection and given a CO, this HO will have to prove his house was built incorrectly!!!!! What a JOKE. This kind of nonsense makes you wish it were 1886 and you'd just get out your best rope and have a good lynchin'. There was an article recently in a local gossip paper (think a low quality Village Voice) and it had a feature on Habitat 4 Humanity homes that were sinking and leaking and settling and generally falling apart. Here they use subs to get the house out of the ground and volunteers bring it in. They probably used the same foundation sub. OOPS. The best part about the article was tag line "Turning the American Dream into a Nightmare" with a 30 year variable interest only note. (OUCH)
Rant 2 complete..............Scott Out
About the lack of aggregate in the pic..
When you add water to crete you increase the slump. Of course.
And, when not overdone, its no problem. Often loads specified at 4 inch , arrive onsite at a 2, and water has to be added to make the mix workable.Water is the cheapest ingrediant in the mix, right?
When "overwatered", the slump increases , but the cement paste also gets diluted.
The cement paste is the "binder" and when diluted with water loses it's ability to bind the aggregates and sands together in the mix.
At this point "separation or segregation" occurs. What you see when pouring, is the "cream or fat" going one direction, and the "aggregate or rock" going in another direction. Thus the pic showing only hardened cream, or fat.
Better placing methods,ie pumping, resolve a lot of this as the tendencies to "make her run" with water is not necessary.Pump mixes are also generally higher quality, more homogenous mixes than cheaper "chute mixes" or "builder mixes" for guys that are always wanting the cheap stuff. Those are the mixes that contain less powder and are more prone to separation. Footings mixes are notorious rockpiles.
Chemicals can greatly aid direct placements also. We find a small addition of air entrainement ( soap bubbles) aids lubricity , flowability, and eases placement labour. Caution and experimentation should be used with this as too much air can create another set of problems . ie surface delamination, blisters etc. on finishing.
Super Plasticisers, WRA (water reducing admixtures), SCA (self consolidating admixtures) are all available to help ease placements, and all help maintain paste adherance and prevent separation/segregation issues , even though the slump can be greatly increased by their usage.
Sorry if I went on a little long.
Edited 3/7/2007 12:58 pm ET by ericicf
<<Sorry if I went on a little long.>>Not at all. Brownbagg and I have been preaching the same sermon here for almost 10 years and the question keeps coming up. Oh yeah, and the difference between rebar and remesh . . . (easy, there, 'Bagg <G>)Keep saying it, they'll get it eventually.Two things I would add to your good comments: the other problem with extra water besides everything you described is that the added water takes up physical space inside the concrete . . . until it evaporates, that is. So now you have a washed-out mix that is full of some strange and unpredictable voids, even where there was paste. Not good for strength or durability.The other, which you also mentioned but it's a sore subject for me and I'd like to join in; you don't always get what you pay for but you never get anything you don't pay for. Good quality concrete work costs money. Period. If someone wants to do the work too much cheaper, something is wrong. I prided myself on well-constructed concrete homes and top-quality foundations for conventional homes right up to the point where I could not stand to hear clients whine about the price anymore. So I don't do it anymore.
YES , the ever present shrinkage cracking, you're so right.
Thanks for commenting.
Concrete is up again here this year 5 to 8%. Probably is for you also.
I have the same feelings you do towards the whiners and price shoppers,
and of course the guys who want us to finance them , on their timetable.
Sorry, we're booked. Thanks for calling. Smile. Whew, close one.
ICF's are really starting to go off here, which is sweet.
Hi All,
Attached are a two pictures of the cores from my foundation.
"West Wall" is the wall with the blow outs.
I will post the test results when they become available.
Jax
Edited 3/13/2007 6:59 pm ET by jaxhomeowner
can somebody resize please???Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I kept the west one close to full and cut away the surrondings - it is good to be able to see the structure up close.They definitely lost aggregate along that wall. Not spectacularly great on the other two cores either.The testing will have something to say.So will BB
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Please do keep us posted, and best of luck to you. I hope you can get these folks to make it right.
Hi All,
Attached are photos from some of my neighbors homes.
Note the Quick-Crete foundation repair on the undersize slab. This is on a load bearing wall.
Exposed rods, undersized slabs and foundation voids are typical. One exposed rod was repaired by gluing cardboard over it and painting the repair to match the foundation.
An attorney is considering the case, I will keep you posted.
Jax
It'd be a good class action suit, IMO
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gluing cardboard over it and painting the repair to match the foundation.
That was structural paint they used.
ROAR!SamT
Praise the Corporation, for the Corporations' highest concern is the well being of the public.
I see we can finally put a face to the poster known as jaxhomeowner.
Tonight, 7/31/07, his plight will really be "Film at 11".
Our local channel 12. First Coast News.
Sic 'em!
OK did the "new message" go away?“When politicians and journalists declare that the science of global warming is settled, they show a regrettable ignorance about how science works.” Nigel Calder, editor of New Scientist
Thanks bill, JD and Sam. I'm all good now!
You need to sue the builder. Where I practice, Massachusetts, there are plenty of lawyers (me for example) willing to take cases like this on a contingent fee basis.
I'm no construction expert, but a 2+ inch overhang? Busting the concrete foundation with a weed wacker? I have to assume the rest of the house is also a POS. A local construction lawyer should be able to recommend an expert to assess the damage and recommend a fix, which should include using portions of the builder as aggregate when the new concrete is properly placed.
You can't do that. Unlike we saw in the pics above, organic material is not allowed in concrete.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
ROAR!
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I saw the drawing for the wall support fix. To me this would not be acceptable. Your exterior wall sits on the edge of a questionable strength slab. Any drilling at the locations shown would further weaken the bearing capacity.
Of course I did not see the actual construction sequence. And I am not familiar with your trades. Here in the Pacific NW the surveyor would place the corner pins. The framer/carpenter builds the forms and places the steel. The concrete supplier places the concrete with the specified strength (for slabs nothing under 28Mpa). The carpenter places the anchorbolts into the wet concrete. An independend lab tests the concrete at the time of pour and 28days later.
In your case the framer must have noticed the mismeasurement for his walls. He should have contacted the builder to a)frame the home on the dimensions given or b) rectify the deficiency first before proceeding with the framing.
All this is water under the bridge. My choice would be to enlarge the foundation on the exterior to provide adequate support (drill anchors horizontal into the existing foundation and add a min of 12" to the exterior). Use angle iron and bolt it to the INSIDE of the framewall to the slab.
Thanks for the photo. Sorry about your luck with the Bldg Dept. Not the same down here in Sarasota. We had a few drive by guys, and their authority got suspended ASAP.
Next problem I see is the concrete it self. Where's the aggregate? That chunk is big enough that you should see something. I think it's time to call an engineer and an attorney.
P.S. My county instituted an inspection for epoxy sets to avoid just such situations
Yeah, he mentioned a requirement for the rod to be buried 7" in epoxy but the photo is clear that it has no more than half that
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This oughtta clear your "unread message" problem.
These pretzels, are making me thirsty.
I have a lot of respect for my concrete guys. They work their asses off and do good work for me.
Other than that, you might want to try using the spell checker. Wouldn't wanna give any false impressions... ;-)
Done a yard or two of concrete myself, if you have a surveyor problem once and didn't learn to check measuments and square from then on for yourself .. Too Darn bad.
Embeds should not have been drilled that close to the edge of the concrete by anyone.
No inspector should have passed them.
Ps. I own the rakes, (actually we call em muck sticks or come alongs here) , the trowels, builders level, forms, power trowels , hand tools and just about everything you need for the work. All well used by me and my crews.
crap work is crap work.
Crete workers only get what they deserve.
Yhe guy I use keeps good equipment, oversees his crew well, and actually reads the plans.
But overall, I'd say that my experience is that three quaters of them think 2" is "close enough" I had to build on a garage slab once that had a 1-1/2" rise in center and was 3" out of square so I had to adjust sizes to build the building square.
I pointed it out to the owner before starting to frame to see if he wanted to re-pour the slab or not. The concrete crew was on site a couple hours later with one of them shaking his finger in my face. He left with a broken finger.
I've seen a LOT of crete done 2" out! And I've done enough of it to know there is no need to be that way.
Every trade seems to get a rep. Roofers are coverd with tar and filthy. Painters drink all day long. Sparkies don't know how to use a broom or vacum. Plumbers sawzall the heck out of structural members figuring that air wioll hold the structure up. Floor finishers are atempermental lot, especially when it comes to somebody walking on their freshly sanded floor...
With crete it is a lack of accuracy and a need to add water for no reason other than ease of placement.. I understand. I've puked pulling a screed too, but more watre equalls a poor quality slab.
What slump do you pour at?
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No primadonna here. I get right muddy with the rest of them.
I have standards and enforce them. You wanna come on my job and form 2" out of square, you can go pound sand. Form square and level to the dims on plan and you got work.
It's only the second class concrete workeers that get treated as second class - the probelm is that 75% of the ones I have seen do second lcass work.
In the case of this thread here, whoever formed and poured it did third class work to make themselves really stand out!
Now, Let me see you setting a nine foot J-bolt in wet mud there eri.
;)
What's with this writing like as to show yourself off as ignorant? You can spell and form sentences perfectly well to fill in your profile. You are just playing a part here. Trying to make yourself stand out?
Fun, Ain't it?
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no, I called concrete finshers, high school drop out dopeheads.
I stand by my call. At time you just want grab a concrete finisher by the ears and say "Do your freakin job"
Edited 3/4/2007 11:51 am by brownbagg
so who called you a dope head?
you got a psychpdelic imagination going on? or just need remedial reading class? Or sometimes that kind of paranoia comes from guilt...
I got the haha when you said you'd use J-bolts to tie the top plate down for a job like this.
I have to admitt ignorance on one thing though. I don't what is a guy who chins his nose
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"I contacted a building contractor on this and he told me that adding too much water to the concrete mixture allows the aggregate to settle."
That is called segregation. That will also happened when the concrete has to fall too far. There is a lot of information at http://www.cement.org/ They are the people who do testing of concrete.
Are you sure there is a building code where you are? If there is, can you get a copy of the specifications on the drawings when the house was built? Better yet, can you get a copy of the blueprints?
Any idiot could see that the anchor bolts were not in the proper place when the concrete was poured. Where was the building inspector in all of this? Paid off? It is a felony to knowingly pass a building that does not meet the code.
Not too many years ago when a hurricane came along in Florida the investigators found that many homes only had four nails per sheet of plywood.
GB,
The all thread rods are installed after the slab is poured and the walls built. They drill through the bottom plate into the slab. Fill the hole with epoxy and shove the rod in after sticking it through a hole in the top plate.
I have contacted an engineering firm to test the slab and am working out the details. The engineer that I spoke with described my foundation as "wimpy" and it looked more like grout then concrete.
A complaint has been filed with the DBPR against the private provider inspector.
I was able to get a set of specs for the house from the city archives. It seems that the individuals that built my house were unencumbered by them or the Florida Building Code.
Thank you for your suggestions.
Jax
Edited 3/8/2007 5:08 am ET by jaxhomeowner
Good luck to you. I'm glad some folks here were able to help, and I hope you get a successful resolution on this.It's in everyone's best interest that the job gets done right the first time.
Sounds shaddy. Get with several other homeowners and see if you all can go in as a group and make a class action out of it/