As I was replying to a statement about tile substrates….well, the poster said to me he uses Denshield for a shower base rather than a mud job to save some steps. Not that its the worst thing in the world even though I’d “never” do that it made me think.
Made me think about steps we use to save time that might compromise the job such as the forementioned, or others such as using nails in rock rather than screws or using glue on tile jobs rather than thinset or mud for that matter.
Or what I seriously despise, is seeing wood framed chimmneys instead of brick or stone on million dollar houses.
Granted money is always an issue (well sometimes) but it seems to me the attitude of some builders, “can’t see it from my house” is becoming more and more prevalent.
So what do you see thats taking a short cut that compromises the craft?
What do you see thats O.K. to do?
Andddd, what do “you” do to cut time that you know you “shouldn’t” be doing?
I “think” I’m starting to like Ditra for tile rather than a CBU because of the total ease of it. The cost is high so I think over all I’m not “cheaping” out…
I’m only posting this thread to help the bunch of us become more aware of things that are negatives in our craft come to the surface.
I’ve been using Ditra because it saves me time yet doesnt save me money in the end at all….basically saves my back, and as I said time. It seems to be a real good invention all around….and we all know about inventors…lol…so on that note…whatcha think?
Be honest now
Namaste
andy
-
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to “Be Here Now.”
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Replies
I could have written the first half of your post.
Not just framed "chimneys", but using 36" prefab "fireplaces" when a 42" or 48" masonry fireplace would be more appropriate for scale. Nothing like walking into someone's great room, with 2-story vaulted ceilings, to see a stone or tile facade rimming a 36" pea hole of a "fireplace". Ugh.
I'm slow to change when it comes to tile, especially tile in wet areas. Either mud or CBU. Mastic? Ugh.
One type of siding material on the front or "show" side of the house, and vinyl on the other three sides. Ugh.
To me, trim is 90% cosmetic...but again, seeing 3 1/2" clamshell used for BASEBOARD in a $$$$ house? Or in a style of house where it simply doesn't match? Buyers that don't notice the difference deserve it. Though it is cosmetic and can be changed later, trim can really set a house off.
One type of siding material on the front or "show" side of the house, and vinyl on the other three sides. Ugh.
I've done this along with installing more expensive windows in the front and using a less expensive window everywhere else on a house. While not something I prefer to do, I have to compete with others that are willing to do this. What I do is explain to the customer what and where the compromise lies, show him what the difference in price is, and allow him to make the decision whether to proceed in this direction.
While it's easy for us to criticize people that do this, there remains the fact that budget is a BIG factor in the type of work that people get done on their homes. People are looking for something that's better than what they had and don't want to pay a fortune for it. If it's not a candidate for "Achitectural Digest" when it's done isn't something that pains the minds of many homeowners.
Another thing is that the VAST MAJORITY of people aren't as critical of materials and the kind of esthetics we're talking about here. In fact, their opinion on these matters has become the de facto esthetic despite what we craftsmen may think. I get questioned all the time why I use the type of base moldings or other trim I do and couldn't I save them a little money by using the kind of molding "everybody else" uses? They don't seem to be interested that the trim I may be using is the appropriate type or that it fits the character of their home better, just what's it going to cost and can't you do it cheaper?
It would be nice to blow these jobs off, but unfortunately you just can't and get your bills paid. It's these jobs that make me appreciate those clients that allow me to do the kind of work I really rather be doing and that allow my talent to shine.
I recently used Denshield tilebacker as a floor tile substrate. For that purpose, it was great...like laying sheetrock on a floor....and when all thinsetted down, nice and smooth and flat.
But, despite GP's claims, I would NOT use it as a backer in a shower or any other wet or damp area.
I had a unit of the stuff that set outdoors on a trailer for about 3 weeks, all shrink-wrapped and tarped. But, alas, one corner of the covering had a leak and after almost constant rain, several sheets got damp on one corner...and ended up being soft and crumbly like any other drywall.
Andy,
I remember reading that post about Dens-Shield in a shower base. That was quite recent, wasn't it. It didn't occur to me at the time, but I'm pretty sure that Georgia-Pacific doesn't list that as an acceptable use of the product, so your instincts there are good.
But I really like Dens-Shield and I've used it several times (I've never done a shower base), and regretted it the one time I didn't.
But I am looking forward to an opportunity to use Ditra.
Another day, another tool.
Rich
I'd love to see some moe reaction to Ditra....
Sure seems like a great invention....
Be not Larry
Namaste
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Sure, it is great for it's proposed use, but not a miracle product.
Keep it real, do a little more research on it, use it when you need it.
I've used Ditra on several installations. I've used it where there could easily be problems, such as; over mixed substrates (hardwood/cement), over compromised substrates (cracked cement), and have never had a problem on any floor where I used it. Some of these installations are for customers that have become friends and kept in touch too. I rate it as a very useful product and one that adds reliability to otherwise very unstable applications. It's only drawbacks are the added costs and the extra thickness.
I don’t believe you can look at the materials that go into a job and decide the contractor intentionally cut corners. Many HO’s don’t have budget expectations for what we consider suitable materials; they want what will “present” at a good price. In other words we must bid with mediocre materials and or pratices just to be competitive.
As an example I had clients that wanted crown mould installed in a dining room. After calculating their desires of a certain finished look, I presented a cost that totally blew them away. A couple months later I inquired about the crown, they had another contractor install a crown for a total price that nearly matched just the cost of the crown I bided with. The other guy “cut corners” while I was going to give them high end. Look who got the job.
Scott R.
Scott,
I think this is where we get into the business end of things called "sales"!
YOu need to know what your compitition is going to sell.
You need to explain to the potential customer that there are many ways of doing a job all of which institute different costs.
Leave it up to them. Give them all the options.
Funny enough I'm going to be giving a good customer a price on some crown in their kitchen along with a buncha other work that was approved.
I think it may shock them as to what it costs to install crown.
The walls to ceilings seem a bit outta square so I told them I wouldnt use a stain grade crown because that would seriously cost more money in installation
as well as material. I absolutly hate doing stained crown on crooked walls/ceiling.
They were happy that I let them know the differences. Still gonna charge em at least $700 for installation alone.....and it isn't a particularly large kitchen.
Funny enough....they're having a cabinet maker custom build their cabs and he's installing them as well....funny thing is...he doesn't wanna do the crown.
Hmmmm....maybe $700 is too cheap.
By the way....I never insinuated that there isn't a time and place for everything cost wise. Its just when a builder gets it in his head to cheap out on everything and never have the craft in place that I get bothered. If thats what the HO wants fine I guess unless I'm so busy that I just say FU to shlock work and move on. After all....my signature is on all the work I do. Its my heart and soul as well as my bread and butter.....you only live ......well....I think this is my millionth incarnation but I aint sure for sure....lol.....I think my first life I was a Jewish carpenter that got into some serious trouble and now I'm a Jew/Hindu carp still in trouble....go figure....lol
Be crucified
Namaste/Shalom
AC
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Edited 5/4/2003 12:19:58 PM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)
Andy,
Just to clarify (what seemed to prompt your post), I did not say, nor would I use, Denshield as a shower floor base for tile. Reread my post and you will see, I was referring to a method to reduce the time needed for the tile man to come on site and preslope the subfloor under the plumbers membrane. There are many things I do to save time and money on a job, but I try very hard to maintain the integrity of any detail exposed to exterior weather or interior water.
I use iron on edging when doing birch plywood adjustable shelves instead of a glued on piece of hardwood (it sometimes makes me feel like I am cheaping out)...although I do use solid rips of poplar on all fixed shelves and uprights.
I will also use preprimed fingerjoint shoe molding from time to time.
Bill
I once worked for a guy who had us use iron on edging. Absolutely is a cheapo way to do it and stuff slid off the shelf is going to snag it eventually.
Ya know, I've wondered about this issue different times. Builders seem to be building cheaper houses. But people seem to WANT cheap houses.
So is it really right to blame the builder? When is it right/wrong to question people's sense of style, and what they want?
Don't know that I have the answers - IT's just been floating around in my brain for a while..........
I disagree with unanimity.
Ron,
I really wasn't talking about blaming builders for what the customer wants but rather what the builder does of his or her own accordance simply to save time or money.
Yet, it is part of the conversation I suppose thinking about how we're led by the HO.
What the converstion should be really about is polotics actually, believe it or not.
The economy stupied (no not you Ron....lol). Is it the economy or are folks not in touch with the Zen of creating the enviorment they live in? HAppy to have CCA for their kids to crawl around on in their back yard or for that matter using heartwood Redwood and endangering the forests?
Is plastic parts with all considered worse than brass parts....Plastic piping rather than copper piping?
Or can we take recycled wood and create trusses stronger than stick lumber?
I suppose when I see those plastic windows put in....I think they call em', "replacement windows"....it just rubs me the wrong way. And no, I don't mean Andersons, I mean those plastic ugly windows. And it ain't so much about ugly but of what I strongly believe in and would like to study more of...FUNG SWAY.....I spelled it the way its pronounced. Its all about the energy of the product and the placement of it and how it effects you and yours. Kinda like leaving your closet door open in front of your bed with the light on inside it....bothers the shid outta me. Imagine a whole house constructed with those subtle announances. Or....imagine a house built and decorated with quite the opposite.
A tree in the middle of your driveway doesnt seem to work as well as alongside it or maybe fifteen feet away....
I keep getting erked everytime I pass this new house that has a trapazoid window facing the opposite way of the roof pitch.....I'm sure it works from inside the house but I avoid driving past there...it bothers me.... Do you think I have OCD? LOL,,,,or do I just care too much? Time for a beer maybe?
Be obsessed,
Namaste
andy.....PS....wainscotting or wainscott paneling?....ugh...grrrr
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I hate working on a high dollar "custom" home with so much plastic & junk materials,especially masonite doors.Wouldn't use masonite (doors or otherwise)on a doghouse! But I really don't have an opinion.