I’m building a deck off of our house and am looking for some creative ideas for balusters. I like the plain black iron-looking ones that I have seen around, but the ones I’ve found on the internet are actually aluminum (which the new treated lumber will eat), and are a bit pricey. I considered using 1/2″ copper pipe, after somehow removing the print, and just letting it turn green over time. This would end up being cheaper than the aluminum. I also considered using black iron pipe, but I want it to be relatively maintenance free, and the green copper oxide is much prettier than the brown iron oxide.
Anyone have any suggestions?
Lew
Replies
1/2" copper is going to be pretty soft and easy to bend if someone's partying hardy on your deck and starts running into the railing. A buddy of mine has that detail (I think it's 3/4" on his) and three young kids and his balusters are all bent. I wonder if there's a way you could slip some all-thread or maybe oak dowels down inside the pipe for stiffness?
There was at least one vendor showing nice metal balusters at JLC Live when I went...
The treated will work on the copper, also! Raw steel, too!
Take a look at http://www.outwater.com for lots of metal part to build gates, fences, railings...but mostly steel!
Visit your local metal/steel supplier for stainless steel tubing. A little pricy but sharp looking and far more rigid than copper....plus SS and ACQ treated get along well.
..............Iron Helix
Have you had experience with the new PT attacking copper? Any idea what attacks it? I thought that copper was one of the treatment materials. Copper attacks iron and aluminum through galvanic action, right? I wouldn't think that it would have the same effect on itself.
"The treated will work on the copper"Why do you say that. All reports I have seen indicate that the problems are caused by electryolyis between the copper in the treatment and the "other metal". If the other metal is copper there won't be any reaction.And all reports suggest using copper for flashing and bronze fasteners are also approved.PS, I wonder how much foam in the center would stiffen the copper pipes? Need some tubing to extend it into the center.
how much foam in the center would stiffen the copper pipes
That's an interesting idea--would seem like it might keep the tubes from collapsing. Not sure it would keep them from bending, though.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Dense enough foam would do it, but I don't know if the common "off the shelf" foam would be.
if the common "off the shelf" foam would be
Almost makes me want to go get all three strengths of copper tubing & try out some foam-in-a-can . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
If foam would work so would sand. Keeps pipe from collapsing while bending.
Your reasoning for the proposed compatibility of copper pipe and ACQ lumber sounds logical but I don't think it works chemically.
Bear with me for it has been 30+ years since I last sat in a chem class...But here is what I can piece togrther from the MSDS sheet and a chem book or two.
The MSDS is for "pressure treated wood with Alkaline Copper and Quaternary Ammonium compounds"
The copper you refer to is in the pure metalic state, but the copper in ACQ is "a proprietary copper complex expressd as copper oxides" So that compound does not react the same as plain old copper.
It is listed as proprietary, which means someone owns a patent on the production of ACQ and some of the ratios of ingredients are "secret" but in reading the MSDS one can take apart what they have done with the chemistry.
A complex is a group of polar molecules attached to a central metal ion and in this case the chemist have used copper oxiide as the center metalic ion and and attched ammonia ion as amines. This process is done in the presence of liquid ammonnia which is a strong basic alkaline chemical.
The chemical complexing of the NH++ molecules to the copper oxide molecules leaves in the solution a large number of OH- ions whach causes AlkalineCopperQuaternary to be so corrosive to most of the metals we use in building....including elemental copper. The name also implies that each copper oxide molecule is paired with 4 ammonia ions leaving 4 OH- ions to roam free and be corrosive
Pure copper plus a basic solution with OH- ions will readily produce CuOH2 which is a water soluble salt.
I believe that the manufactures suggested metals of choice are a minimum of triple plated galvanized or the best choice of stainless steel......i don't have a copy in front of me but that is what I remember. Both of these metals are less chemically reactive than elemental copper.
So I still would stay away from mixing copper pipe with ACQ.
Now with all that said I would ask for a resident breaktime chemist with current levels of memory to chime in!
Regards................Iron Helix
I'm not a chemist, but I am a chemical engineer. I took my (multiple) chemistry classes at U of L(ouisville) in the early 90's, but you've put together a much better writeup than I could hope to do.
That being said, I have found that most of what I learned in college was how to think and analyze as opposed to predict based on theory (the proof is in the pudding). Shoeman didn't say how long he has been using the copper sticks in this application, but I'd bet that it's been since the new stuff came out if he builds decks regularly.
The ACQ stuff has only been on the market for a couple of years, and I don't know how long it's taking to work on the old-style fasteners that HD and others no doubt kept selling after their stock of ACC was spent. It may take longer to work on copper (2 years, 20 years, 200 years??), or it may not.
Also, they may not mention copper for fasteners b/c it is a relatively soft metal compared to steel; I've never seen copper used for fasteners except for plumbing and roofs (and gutters I suppose). Do the manufacturers mention or exclude using copper for flashing?
We'll probably pick up 50 or so sticks of copper today and go with it. I may try to figure out an easy way to put a layer of material between the copper & ACQ (plastic, silicone, etc.). I think that the copper look will most closely match the 90-year old house in the 100-year old neighborhood.
Thanks again to everyone for all of the information & suggestions- Basswood may have edged out Gene for the most creative suggestion!
I don't build a lot of decks. In fact the one in the picture is a couple years old - at the time you could still get both CCA and AC2 treated around here. I went with the new AC2 on that deck because the homeowner was concerned about the kids.
I started hearing about how the stuff was eating fastners just after I finished that deck. I know I used stainless screws and double dipped bolts, but my joist hangers were just the old zinc I am afraid.
Anyway, what I am saying is that I don't know if the wood will eat the copper.
You take your chances. I only posted the pictures to show what it looked like. I don't have a problem saying the copper is plenty strong - that is what I was responding too - and as stated I use the thicker (think type L not M) walled copper.
Good luck with whatever you do.
I did the same thing back when the ACQ first came out. The house is my grandmothers so I can go back whenever and I checked it out a few weeks ago and everything look perfect, no signs of anything. I think the only real problems result when the conditions are very very wet. It seems that the more moisture, the corrosion increase dramatically. You should check just to make sure but unless it is very wet continuously, I don't think you'll have a problem.
I picked up the copper on Saturday morning - about $700 worth of 3/4" (heavier stuff - type L I think). I really hope I like it considering I only have about $2,000 in lumber.
We had a nasty storm on Friday night - pea-sized hail and sideways rain. Pushed in one window (previously held closed with a bent nail) and actually broke some plastic on a replacement double-hung window. Had about 1" of hail in the third floor room, along with some very wet carpet, maple leaves and helicpoters. Only discovered the window damage after noticing water on the floor in the middle of the house on the 1st floor. Anyway, I didn't get to work on the deck until Sunday, so I did not get to start on the railings - still have about 1/2 day of 5/4 boards to put down. I did dry-fit a scrap piece of pipe to a 7/8" hole in a 2x4 - fits very nicely. I'll have to make a jig to make sure that the holes are square - not much room for error.
I also picked up some rubber electrician's tape, with the idea that I wuold wrap the ends of the pipe and insert into a 1" hole, filling the top with silicone. I did not like how it looked on the mock-up piece, however. Good to hear DDay's experience. I'll make sure to heed Shoeman's suggestion for a weep hole in the bottom board.
One other comment- I bought the $75, 25# box of tan-colored deck screws (Deck-Rite???) - the ones that come with the bit. My previous experience was with the Home Depot-standard "Primeguard" screws, which were horrible. About every fifth one would either strip or break the head off. And, they would end up streaking the wood with rust after a season.These new screws are worlds apart from the others - well worth the money. I have yet to break or strip one, and I have been able to sink them to exactly to the depth that I want them. The bonus is the color, so you ddon't even notice they are there unless you look for them. I will probably have 10 or 15 lb left over, but I think that I will find a use for them; I may throw the remaining 10 lb of Primeguards in my old bucket away!
"I believe that the manufactures suggested metals of choice are a minimum of triple plated galvanized or the best choice of stainless steel......i don't have a copy in front of me but that is what I remember. Both of these metals are less chemically reactive than elemental copper."I believe that bronze is in there also, but I am not sure. But bronze is not that commonly used in construction.However, it is clear that copper is the recommended flashing material.
Thanks for the info!
Stopped at local treater/wholesaler/retailer...only thing on the shelf in terms of flashing was S/S, The salesman said it was the only flashing they felt would last long enough to avoid liability...he wasn't a chemist by a long shot!
Do you have a link for your info? I would like it for reference.
................Iron Helix
You can take the writing off the copper easily through a number of ways but if your looking for the green color, you'll be waiting a very long time. Copper will turn brown within a few months of being exposed but the green color will take at least 10 years and in most cases more than that.
Check out these http://www.deckorators.com/ they are aluminum but they have little plastic or composite pieces that fit into the hole so the aluminum is never in contact with the pressure treated. To me, the only thing I would use pressure treated for is the framing, anything else it looks like crap, splinters, etc. Check out mahogany decking, it is very affordable.
Heres the connectors http://www.deckorators.com/Connectors.asp
I found the Deckorator site from a Yahoo search. As you say, you have to buy a separate plastic piece for each end of the spindle to protect the aluminum, so the net cost is between $2.70 and $3.70 per baluster, and you end up with a small piece of plastic holding your kids on the deck. It seems like I read somewhere that each component of the rail system has to withstand 200 lb; I'm not sure that these would pass that test (not sure that 1/2" copper would either for that matter, without reinforcement as David suggests above). The plastic pieces are not inserted; rather they are screwed down into the top of the 2x.
I do like the architectural series, but they're even more expensive at about $6 each.
I wonder if there is anything you can do to speed up the oxidation process on the copper? I've heard of people "releiving themselves" on copper roofs to accomplish this (I do have a few huskies that I could put to work)...
I called those inserts plastic but they are probably some type of composite material that is pretty strong. Ever seen the bushings on your car? They are a plastic type composite and they withstand extreme stress. I also like the architectural series, I first saw these on some McMansion's that they are building down the street. Those houses are very expensive so they don't care about the $5 a piece for the balusters. But because they screw up from the outside of the rails, I believe it is a wash for that builder because they save on the time and thus labor costs.
To me, the look these have and the longevity they'll provide, the small amount more money they'll cost is worth it.
Also, I know that if you leave flux on copper pipe it turns green within a few months. So I imagine if you wipe the pipes with flux they will turn green very quickly.
I've been told... never tried... that urine will darken copper almost instantly. It sure wouldn't be hard to find out. Flux left on gives an ugly, crusty green.
Acid is the cause of the tarnished copper look. The stronger the acid the faster the reaction will occur. I've heard Coke will do the same thing....tho I tried it with cherry flavored Coke and nothing happened. I've heard of a few people using the urine method with success. I've used muriatic acid with success. You can get it by the gallon at Home Cheapo or like stores. It will begin to send of a plume of "smoke" as the reaction occurs and can be neutralized with water when the desired look is acheived. BE WARNED! do NOT use the muriatic acid in doors, have someone around in case you inhale the fumes, don't let your kids play with it, store any unused acid outside and do not place the bottle on top of any metal surface. It will somehow react through the plastic bottle.
One thing to keep in mind is that you need to completely submerge the copper in order to get a consistant look to the tarnish.
I hope my meager experience helps!
I asked about creating patina on copper a few months ago. These are some of the answers I got ..
Easy way to get a great patina on copper:Rub all the finish off with steel wool, mix vinegar and salt in a squiter bottle. Squirt all the copper. Be careful where you lean your project to patina it, as this mix will kill all green plants it comes in contact with.Cool patina overnight!!! <!----><!---->
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I found this recipe in The materials and methods of sculpture,by Jack Rich. Ligth Green: vinegar 1 pint, Ammonium Chloride 125 grains, Sodium Chloride 125 grains, Liquid Ammonia 1/4 ounces. sodium and ammonium chloride are first dissolved in the vinegar and the liquid ammonia is then added to this solution which is applied cold. this can also be used for bronze patina.<!---->
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Ammonia will give you some blues. I 'fog' mine in a plastic bag due to vapors. As mentioned above urine and muratic acid work well in getting green. I am an artist and buy it in 10'x3' sheets and burn the entire sheet in a bonfire before I do anything to it. Great reds doing this. Oak leaves and rain water have also put color in my copper. The possibilities are endless.<!---->
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I just finished my copper light fixture covers and used some of the ideas covered by folks posting to this forum. I used a vinegar and salt solution to wash the coating off the copper. I then mixed salt with bleach and packed it onto the curved and hammered copper and let it 'cure' for 30 minutes. It came out with a wonderful motled finish of many shades...brown, red, orange, purple. I installed them without any clear coating and will let nature take it's course.<!---->
You can speed up the oxidation process with a number of different patina solutions available from a sculpture supply houses. The Complete Sculptor http://www.sculpt.com/ is a good source and the JAX products are easy to work with and pretty good.You can also use Miracle Grow to get a bluish green effect but you will need to experiment with it to get the right formula because you can "burn" it leaving a sort of fuzzy effect. Get the concentrate and mist it on with a spray bottle. I would start by letting it sit four to five hours then wash off with water and see the effect you get. It may take longer like overnight. (I can't remember - it’s been a while).Hope this helps.
I've used electrical conduit and painted it with exterior spray paint. Looks good, lasts a long time before needing touch up, is inexpensive, and is pretty strong.
I've also used 1/4" wire grid panels. These are available through Outwater Plastics as well. They are powder coated and come in chrome, black and white. I've also painted these with good luck. They come in 3" o.c. grids, 2'x 4',5',6',7',and 8'. The nice thing about these, is they don't interrupt your view while seated as most spindles do. When sandwiched in framing, they are quite ridged.
Outwater carries tons of stuff and is a great resource. Check it out at http://www.outwater.com.
Great suggestion Dan. I have one of their catalogs tucked away somewhere - they have about everything.
Thanks to all for the ideas and input-
Lew
I have used 3/4" copper pipe on inside stairways and on decks. I think it is plenty stiff - really can't see someone bending it.
I use the thicker walled (type L - I believe) pipe
For decks, I rip a 2x6 in half down the center, and router the edges with a roundover bit. Then I drill holes with a 7/8" forsner bit - nice tight fit for the pipe. I drill about 1/2 way through the board. On the bottom board, I also drill a 1/4 inch hole all the way through the board in the center of the larger hole to allow any water that might get in to drain.
I just cut the pipe on my old beater miter saw with a cheap carbide blade. Get 3 pieces out of each 10' stick of copper. Often have to touch the edge up with a grinder or sander to make it easier to slip in the holes.
This is getting a bit long - here are a couple pictures to save the next thousand words.
Edited to add: as far as getting the print off the pipe - a quick wipe with a rag soaked in laquer thinner takes it off fast.
Edited 4/22/2005 12:05 pm ET by Shoeman
That looks exactly how I was hoping that it would (possibly replacing the brown with green, but it still looks great). I wonder how I could get the coating off of the post caps so that they would match the balusters? I had smiilar caps at my old house - the coating was crap, as was the wooden base that attached to the post. Looks like your caps are quite a bit better.
The pipes must be pretty strong - Looks like you have at least one young'un runningstuff into them regularly judging by the amount of toys.
Thanks for the pics-
Lew
possibly replacing the brown with green
That just gave me deja vu; chech with the Search function, I want to say that GreenCu had a "formula" to chemically get copper green.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Tempered glass panels.
Stainless steel cabling.
Cedar twigging for that Adirondack Great Camp look.
Clear acrylic plastic toilet plunger handles for baulusters.
you could fill the copper pipes with concrete