I am going to install crown molding in my bedrooms ( standard 8 ft ceilings) and I have a couple of easy questions. What is the easiest way to measure the length that needs to be cut, my tape measure will work if I had someone holding the other end, but I will be doing this alone. Also, none of the corners are square in my house, they are not bad but they are not at 90 degrees so I was going to try and cope them instead of just mitering each corner so as not to have to much of a gap, do you think this is a wise decision? I do not mind taking the extra time to do this since I built alot of furniture over the years and I belive in close tolerances. I have talked to some old timers and they say to cope but some of the people that I have asked for a quote on say that is old fashioned and mitering is the way to go but that is hard to belive. I have seen installs done in my friends houses that were mitered by remodeling companies and I see to many gaps up to a 1/4″ and it is filled with caulk and I just cant stand to see that. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Mike
Replies
I'm still learning to cope, after sixty-somthing years. ;-)
Coping is definitely my preferred method for joining moldings in corners, for all the reasons you gave.
There are several newer coping methods being used with synthetic materials. They have been detailed here by others often. One of these methods involves an angle grinder.
If you use the Advanced Search feature, on top of this board's left hand column, to search for crown moldings, you'll find a number of threads on that topic with excellent descriptions for cutting and installing crown.
Best wishes, Peter
Edited 10/5/2009 11:39 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Do an Advanced Search on this and you'll find out more than you ever wanted to know!
As for measuring, cut yourself a stick at an exact multiple of 10". I most often use either 10" (for base, etc.) or 100" (for crown).
Hold the stick into the corner down where the bottom of the crown will hit. Holding the stick parallel to the ceiling, make a mark at the other end of the stick.
Measure from the other corner to your mark, add 100", plus 1/16" for a snap fit).
with the stick method, you get measurements much more accurate than you'll ever get bending a tape into the corner.
AitchKay
If you were looking to hire the work out, your best bet would be to search for trim carpenters, as opposed to remodeling companies.
To get accurate long measurements, choose a point midspan, make a pencil mark on the wall, and measure to that point from each corner, adding the two measurements for the total length.
Another easier way, is to purchase a digital laser distance measuring device. That is kinda expensive though, for just one project. (FHB did a review on them recently)
they might be good at other things but crown moulding and maybe finish carpentry are not your "old timers" specialty.
definately cope.
they might be good at other things but crown moulding and maybe finish carpentry are not your "old timers" specialty.
Next time, you might want to italicize or make bold-your
Us old timers that don't know the guy might take offense.
thanks.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
go ahead and take offense grammar cop
not like you didnt know what I meant
go ahead and take offense grammar cop
not like you didnt know what I meant
You Yankee Dog!
I did have to read it a couple times to figger it out.
And me? a grammer cop?
Surely you jest.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
If your corners aren't a true 90 deg. coping is the way to go. You could spend a lot of time, and a fair amount of scrap, cutting test pieces to find the correct angle to miter the corner, but IMO coping is waay faster.
As far as measuring? I know use a Hilti laser distance meter, but before that I'd cut a stick like someone else already suggested. But I usually cut mine to 100", use it to place a mark on the wall, measure the rest of the difference, and then add that to the 100".
If you have any outside corners, I generally hold the piece in place, then mark on the back where it needs to be cut.
coping will hide out of squre corners much faster than mitered and coped corners won't open up as much with changes in RH or at least won't be as noticeable.
To measure, jam your knife (box cutter, or anything with a thin blade) a standard distance from the corner into the DW behind where the crown will go and pull your tape off that. Remember to add back the distance burned from the corner.
"jam your knife ... a standard distance from the corner into the DW behind where the crown will go and pull your tape off that."What do you do on plaster walls?
BruceT
haven't worked a plaster wall in eons
You mention that the corners are not 90 degrees. This is not just common -- it's probably the norm in most houses. (It has to do with how the drywall mud goes into the corners, building them just a bit higher than the "flats".
But note that there are a number of angles that you need to at least be aware of. The wall-to-wall angle is critical. But so is the ceiling-to-wall angle -- on both sides of the corner.
Get a good protractor. Use a compound-miter angle calculator or chart.
And cope the joints. Or, if you have a good protractor and are following the math (the coumpound miter calcs), miter.
But you'll be WAY prouder if you cope. And as the house "breathes", the difference will show too.
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
I measure from each corner to a mid-point on the wall, add the two measurements, then add 1/16" to 1/8" or so.
If using species crown, cope the insides. If using MDF, you can miter them.
I use titebond on all mitered corners. Never had a seam open up, and I've never used caulk.
I cut crown "upside-down and backwards."
When I install crown, I always rip 2x4s down for a filler stip behind the crown. This is then nailed up with nails going thru the top plate (corner of drywall). You then have a continuous strip for nailing in both directions.You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
How does that help you measure?copper p0rn
I guess he can hook his tape onto the filler strip
Coping looks better, won't open up gaps, tolerates non-square corners, and, with a simple jig, is easy to do with a standard jigsaw on most profiles. If the profile curves under on the edges, coping may not work very well.
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=11364
I use a Bosch laser device to measure for crown; claimed to be accurate to within 1/16" up to 100 feet, mine is dead nuts on. http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-DLR165K-Digital-Laser-Finder/dp/B000T7LISM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1254795866&sr=8-1
Mark the corners at the level of the bottom edge of the crown and measure there. I cut the bevel on one end, then measure and mark the length. I cope one end before cutting the other, just in case I mess up the cope, I have room to re-do it.
Absolutly cope. (Grinder with sanding disks)
Measure: I measure from one corner to a convenient increment like 5' or 6', mark it and note the measurement on the wall. Measure from the other corner to the mark, note that on the wall. Add'em together, note that on the wall.
I double check the overall length to make sure I did not foul up the addition.
Last bathroom I did had 11 pieces and I only had to trim one stick that was coped on both ends. Saved many trips up and down the stairs.
I've done quite a bit of crown working alone, and the best way to get good measurements is to drive a nail at a known distance (10", 20", whatever) from one corner, then use it to hook your tape for the distance to the other corner.
For me, coping is the only way to fly! Mitering can take a lot of "cut and fit" before you get it right and then open up when the house moves. I cut a 45* miter, then use the "line" on the face of the crown as a guide for the back cut. The back cut should be 45* (or a bit more) in the other direction and I use a piece of scrap crown to test the fit before I put it up.
It takes a little practice, but when you figure it out, your corners will go pretty fast. The most difficult cope is the last piece of crown where your length has to be dead-on.
It takes a little practice, but when you figure it out, your corners will go pretty fast. The most difficult cope is the last piece of crown where your length has to be dead-on.
Actually it doesn't using a tip that I probably picked here:
I install a temporary "template" piece (about 12" is sufficient), cope the next piece to it and work around the room back to that piece. When I'm ready to install the last piece, I pull the template and run the last piece behind the already-coped first piece. Since that last piece only needs to be coped at one end, getting the length right is pretty straight-forward.
Well, that's pretty slick!! I've gone thru all kinds of agonizing and measuring to make sure that that last piece fits right, and will definitely try to remember your trick when/if I ever do another crown job. - lolLast summer, I helped #2 daughter and SIL do crown at their house. Simple job. Four 8' walls, and they were doing most of the ladder work. They were very skeptical when I told them that coping was way easier than mitering, and gave me blank looks when I explained how it's done. The lights went on when I did the first cope and they "got it".The first three walls went quickly, but the last (and most critical) piece almost became a nightmare when I discovered that the wall at one of the corners had a serious "wow" in it. They were nearly panic striken until I used a couple of tapered shims to bring the bottom of the first piece of crown out to join the cope in the last piece. We needed a bit more caulk than I liked, but it all came out fine.
My experience is that some crown profiles cannot be coped.Do a test on some "scrap". Mitering might be easier for them, but coping is the way to go. I cut a piece of 2 x on a 45 degree angle to use as a nailer and screw it along the ceiling to be used as a nailer. That way I'm not searching for studs and I can nail anywhere I want. As far as measuring goes ,you can measure of one side of the wall and mark of say 5,6,7' or whatever you want, then come off the other side , measure to that point and add the two numbers together. I always add 1/8 or 1/4 depending on the length to allow for adjustments and to" spring"it in for a tight fit . The Bosch digital protractor is a good tool to help you fgure out angles, if you are standing it up ,just a miter angle is all your going to need , or laying it down , then you will need the miter and a bevel angle as well. It wil give you both. Always cut crown upside down.............There is a good excuse to run out and buy a tool , about 130 bucks,depending on where you go...... I didn't read any of the other replies first I hope I don't sound repettive.....from one toolfreak to another.
Just one more person adding my two cents worth but you definitely want to cope. It might take a little practice but it's worth it in the end and it looks a lot cleaner. Coping with a grinder works well but if your crown is MDF it takes off a lot of material fast so don't overdo it with the coffee on the morning you first try it (spoken from experience).
Like it has been said above I also add a filler strip. It makes installation easier without having to find studs especially if like me you're working alone.
-Steve
Edited 10/6/2009 10:47 am ET by PCFCACarpenter
After reading through this thread, I'm surprised at all the extra work and math some folks are willing to go through (let alone risking dropping a knife into a newly-laid floor from 9 feet up) just to avoid cutting a 100" stick.
Do it the way Shep and I suggest, and you won't regret it.
Another plus that we didn't mention is that it's way, way easier, faster, and more accurate to scribe a crisp, square line along the end of a stick than it is to mark with your pencil freehand.
AitchKay
I used the stick method for years. Its (practically) foolproof. And cheap, and simple.
But now that I've got my Hilti distance meter, the stick is gone. I can measure a room of crown extremely quickly. The first couple of times I used it, I double- and triple checked my measurements with a regular tape. But it is at least as accurate as measuring with a tape.
I've heard that the Hilti is one of the best, and I'll probably break down and buy one soon.But for 99% of the guys out there, the stick is still the best way to go.AitchKayPS Whadja hafta pay?
IIRC, it was around $225. I think. I'm not even sure which model I have, without looking at it. I think its the PD-40?
Shep,
Could you do a picture thread on using one of those? I think it would be warmly rcvd for those of us unable to find a tool fair close by where we could see a demo.
thanks.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
OK. I'm not doing any crown anytime soon, but I'll come up with something.
I use a stick.
It's exactly 72" long.
I cannot for the life of me figure out how the ruler became a lost tool amongst carpenters.
I'm only 51 and I can't begin to tell you how many times I've been called grandpa or such for using a ruler or some other forgotten trick or technique. I do like the stick.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
I just went out and pulled my old 96" Lufkin Red End off the shelf. It's the one with the brass extension ruler.I played around with it for a bit, but I'm afraid it's going back on the shelf where it has sat for the last 35 years.After practicing for a bit, I was able to unfold it and straighten it in 8 seconds, and fold it back up in another 12. I could probably get faster if I used it every day, but that's just too slow for me.And while it can take an inside measurement up to 102" if I hold it in the middle, it won't support itself if held near enough to one end to make a mark at its end.Using only 6 feet of the rule, I can mark at the end. But the oddball increment means I have to do addition. That's OK, I know how, but it takes time and leads to errors.I can call out to my cut man, "72 plus 85 3/16, that's, uh, 157 3/16."But when I'm measuring to my 100" mark, it's a verbal, not a mathematical operation -- I just have to say, "one hundred and," before I call out what my tape reads, "57 3/16."But I've known several guys like you who do just fine with those rulers, so I'd never tell you to switch!Tell us a few other ways you use that rule.AitchKayAitchKay
The extension rule is my go to for inside demensions within the rules length. Like you I do not use it for long measure. The hundred inch stick is almost foolproof.
I always take the stick from right to left, then the tape from left to right to that mark. If I didn't bring the stick or have one to cut on the job, I'll still take the first measurement for mark from R to L.
I've misread (upside down dyslexia) the second step reading the tape upside down if I don't.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
"I've misread (upside down dyslexia) the second step reading the tape upside down if I don't."I don't know how many times I've done that! I'm with you -- left to right with the tape if at all possible.AitchKay
Old and REALLY set in my ways.
I once saw a tape that had readings on it both edges, one upside down for when you pull the tape from the other end.
The numbers so confused my eye that I put it back.
That right there was the answer to the problem, yet I just couldn't "see" it right. Perhaps if I had used it for awhile I'd like it.
Too old, too dumb.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Perhaps if I had used it for awhile I'd like it
Maybe. But after getting used to it and then picking up a "normal" tape measure You would probably be even more likely to make the "reading from the wrong end" mistake.
Unless I was planning on replacing ALL of my tape measures and never borrowing anyone else's, I would stay away from such gimmicks.
Two sticks long enough to overlap,
Two sticks long enough to overlap, put the ends in oposite corners about where the bottom of the crown will be, take a small spring clamp and clamp both sticks and mark both sticks. There's yer lenght. You can measure the lenght of the sticks or just mark the crown of the clamped sticks.
Wayne
I've got a short length of aluminum tube that measures about 3/4"x 1 1/2" inside, and I tapped it for a thumb knob to tighten two sticks together. That makes taking a difficult measurement really easy.I only use it when there's no surface to mark on -- a long closet rod would be one example, checking a ceiling height to measure deflection under different loads would be another. Otherwise they just add an extra step of measuring and transferring.The last time I used it was high on a stepladder, measuring for indirect-lighting box beams. Until lasers came along, two sticks was about the only way one guy could do the job.I've got those sticks in my truck right now, even though they haven't got out to play in a long time!AitchKay
I've been using the method described by DonCanDo for a few years now. Just don't nail within a couple of feet of the end until that corner's tight. You can use a block to tweak the joint until it fits. I usually work from right to left using this process.
Also, in contrast to many here, I NEVER cut crown on the flat, unless it's just too big to stand up in the saw.
For outside corners, it's a whole lot easier to shorten the top or the bottom of the cut by adjusting the crown's position against the fence, as.
For me:Always cope.Upside down and backwards.Grinder.Fat Max alone or tick mark to measure to.View Image
Lots of good advice, especially on measuring.
Buy and use (or make) crown stops for your saw - these hold the crown on the saw )upside down and backwards of course) uniformly for each cut. Very helpful.
These are the ones I have that fit into my DW705:
View Image
Also back-blocking as described. Don't cheap out and use green lumber for this either.
Prove out the ceiling before you pick the crown. If uneven, you can use a crown with a tall 'head' and plane it with a hand-held planer to clear ceiling bumps.
I like to see it backprimed to help control movement due to humidity changes.
Don't rely on gun nails alone. Use square-drive trim screws at least one every four feet.
Jeff
Edited 10/7/2009 9:24 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke