I build furniture so it seems that my friends and neighbors assume that I can anything with wood. This time the question was about crown molding. I am not much of a finish carpenter, so I am looking for help from the experts here. <!—-><!—-><!—->
They are looking to match some crown molding and have hired two different people who both have told them that their molding is no longer available. Attached is a picture of the molding. It doesn’t seem to be anything special. Anyone have any thoughts about availability?<!—-> <!—->
I plan on heading over tomorrow to measure and use a profile gauge to get better information. I will also get better pictures. Is any other information needed?<!—-><!—->
Thanks…<!—-> <!—->
Replies
It's probably a two piece crown. Fill in your location in your profile so we know where you are. There are shops everywhere that will run custom profiles but there is an upcharge for that. There is probably a local millwork supplier that may have that profile in their catalog. Some in my area have thousand of profiles in their catalogs with the knives but they don't stock it. Two weeks lead and you'll have it.
I think you're looking at something very special indeed. In fact, it's probably a built-up crown. That is, it's assembled from a variety of individual profiles, each of which, in its own right, may be difficult to find.
looking at the photo, it looks like upside down colonial baseboard with a standard crown applied over it.
It's not a standard molding. Crowns have an S shape, this one is an ovalo. The very top edge looks like it is beveled in where the ovalo starts. Not having an S curve is a big help in making a match. All the shapes are easily done on a router table and table saw. To have a specialist grind knives to match the molding would be very expensive. 100 lf. wouldn't be too difficult to make. As others have said, you build up individual shapes. I have a picture of some furniture molding I had to duplicate that shows a build up. Yours just has some different shapes.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
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Thanks to everyone for the great replies. Looking at the picture, I also wondered if it was made up of separate pieces. I am heading over tomorrow to get better pictures with a ruler in the frame. I will also use a profile gauge along with some measurements. I wish that I could grab a actual piece of the molding, but I don’t want to make a mess at this stage.<!----><!---->
I don’t think that my friends are worried about the cost of custom knives, as they are high-end people living in a high-end home.<!----><!---->
There is 90 – 100 feet of molding needed and I expect that since it has been a total pain in the butt to try to match that they would probably order extra.<!----><!---->
As to location, it is on the Eastside of Lake Washington in the Seattle Metro area.<!----><!---->
Again, thanks to everyone for all of the helpful replies.
Frank,Around here the knife charge on that would be about 150 to 300 bucks...probably closer to 300 beacsue you would probably do it in two pieces even if you were having the knives made, set up would be about 50 bucks, and then it would be a lineal foot price for what ever thickness of stock it would take. I don't know what you're charging for labor, but in the end it's probably close to a wash if you've got to take time to set up and mill three to four different profiles then run 100 feet of moulding three or four times over. If it was twenty feet, that would be another story.I would just say, yeah, I can do it, shop the milling out, and get on with it.Steve
Frank,
I live in the Seattle area too. I have used a shop in Woodinville called Fine Woodworking. I've had profiles matched by them and they do a really good job. But you have to hand them a piece of the profile to do an exact match. I just recently got a price for cutting a new knife and running it. Or take a chunk to OB Williams and see if they have a knife already made up. Heck Cathy at FW might even already have a knife too. She has quite a library of profiles. Tell her I sent you too.
Here's a copy of the email exchange with Cathy at Fine Woodworking:
Crown: I am assuming out of 8/4 stock X 2 ½”– <!----><!----><!---->
Knife grind – 190.00<!----><!---->
Set up – 75.00<!----><!---->
Per ft – 2.45 per ft<!----><!---->
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Base: ¾ X 8”<!----><!---->
Knife grind: 175.00<!----><!---->
Set up – 65.00<!----><!---->
Per ft – 2.93 per ft<!----><!---->
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Let me know if you need anything else.<!----><!---->
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Kathy<!----><!---->
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From: Brad Rodgers [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 5:46 PMTo: Fine WoodworkingSubject: FW: Retail Project/ Bradley J. Rodgers<!----><!---->
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Kathy,<!----><!---->
Here’s a PDF file for Decaro’s Tailor shop. You will notice that there aren’t many dimensions. I will send you a fax with enough dimensions that you can put some numbers together. I don’t know if you have the capability to do the install too but if you can toss that number in also. Are you capable of doing the staining too?<!----><!---->
Don’t hesitate to call me if you have any questions.<!----><!---->
BjR<!----><!---->
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Bradley J. Rodgers LLC A Carpenter in Private Practice 206 423 9329 - Cell 206 364 4783 - fax [email protected] http://www.acarpenterinprivatepractice.com/<!----><!---->
Edited 1/14/2008 1:50 am ET by BjR
Nice Brad,
I believe you are on to something uncommon but the way it should be.
al
Brad, That is great information!
I will talk to the homeowners today about taking out a section to get the match. What have the lead times been with Fine Woodworking?
If that existing is staying up, I would figure out how many pieces make up the profile and use the gauge and draw it on some paper. Then take that over or email it to the millwork supplier and see if they have those. Then go from there. The get the very exact profile, you might need the wood and strip that since it may have a dozen layers of paint. Tell the millwork place where the house is and the age, that might help to narrow it down.
The good news is the house is 20 years old and the homeowners say that the molding has never been repainted.
Depends on what she has on the schedule. Cathy does REALLY high end stuff for all the local celebrities like Gates and Allen to name just a few but she she's been pretty good about getting it to me in about a week. I used to teach carpentry and construction at Edmonds Community College and I would bring my students to her shop for a field trip and everybody was just amazed at what she was turning out. Keep in mind one thing that isn't apparent from those numbers and that's the cost of the raw stock to mill from. You have to buy that too and factor that cost in too.
BjR
You'll have fun browsing thru the hundreds of profiles for crows here at this site...http://www.tiloindustries.com/profiles/crown_profiles_22.html
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An Ovalo was common in the Greek Revival style.
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Doesn't look like two piece to me... but I've been wrong about these things before.
I believe it to be 2 pieces. But it could be easily reproduced with 3 pieces. A regular crown, a frieze, and some speed base on the bottom. It would be very close.
EDIT - to change my one or two piece theory
Edited 1/13/2008 10:34 pm ET by Brady T.
Edited 1/13/2008 10:35 pm ET by Brady T.
That was my thought as well... three peice, I do this all the time in 2 peice and clients love it... I have even gone as far as making a three peice using a base profile on the ceiling plane and wall plane, sometimes different patterns.. with a crown srpung in the middle although I prefer a heavy c section crown for that stuff.
james
It could even be done with four pieces.
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Frank , looks like 3 or maybe even 4 pieces to me . I have the cutters and can grind what I don't have .
Years ago at an auction of a local old time mill house I bought all the steel knives they had for pennies on the dollar . I have many collars and still use them .
This photo is maybe 2/3rds of the total knives .
dusty
Wow! What a find, dusty!Steve
Steve , Yeah , I paid $150 dollars for over a thousand dollars worth of high speed tool steel , not to mention the hundreds of hours of grinding time .
Over the years I have been able to match many profiles for old homes in my area , sometimes with the same exact cutter that was originally used .Even some siding details .
There is not a huge demand , but when I do get repro work the money is good .
dusty
If you take that return off the end of that crown, you'll know exactly the # of pieces and profiles used...buic
Sorry for being such a newbie about moldings, as I said earlier I make furniture and have managed to avoid moldings and wainscoting.<!----><!----><!---->
If I bring the return to a molding shop will they be able to copy it or do I need a straight section?
My place likes a straight section, and as others said, best free of paint, even one coat.Steve
What I meant by my post was that with the return removed, you would now have a good look at the end of the straight section on the wall.
You should be able to see the individual pieces that make up the overall shape.
Take a close up photo, make some measurements and notes.
A short piece ( 6" ) of the molding with square cut ends would be the ideal "template" to give them. The return will probably be enough...buic
Just curious, are you just supplying it, or are you installing it as well?
Actually, I hope to do as little as possible.
I expect that my role will be to find the supplier, order, and deliver the finished stock. If we can’t find a supplier I will make the actual moldings but from the advice I have received on this site I don’t think that it will be hard to find someone. They seem to have had some problems with contractors, so I might help them find one.
I make furniture and gave a few pieces to mutual friends, which they claim to admire. I also modified an old chest into an entertainment center for them. They were thrilled with the results, and the level of details, so they now consider me a wood expert. The short answer is that I am just trying to help out some friends.
That is a three-piece layup.
I have seeen similar but not sure of exact size etc.
It can be replicated by a custom shop with milling machinery such as the Williams and Hussey or better. It is a matter of having a sample or exact profile and paying through the nose to make the cutters. Best to find a match.
I think Windsor One has a Greek profile that is similar
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Is the existing crown to be repainted? If so then you can get an accurate profile of the entire thing but cutting a 90 degree saw kerf right through the face of it, insert a piece of cardboard into the kerf and trace the profile. Although it's easier done with an actual piece, a good shop should be able to take that profile on the cardboard and make the molding with it.
It does look like a built up moulding to me however I don't recognize the individual componants as a common available trim. Not a big deal. Take a sample of it to a mill in your area that makes trim and they should be able to make a pretty close match. Unfortunatley, set up charges a be a little high. It will really suck if the customer only needs a couple feet.
Dave
http://www.garymkatz.com/Publications/Articles/Moldings.htmldecent articel with a lot of basics on the theory of claassical molding details
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