Yesterday I had a good customer really tick me off. I’ve done plenty of work for these people and they are always very pleased and have been a source of many referrals. They’ve been wanting some nice crown installed in the kitchen so several weeks ago I gave them a bid of two different styles but it was put on the back burner. Tuesday I get a call they want crown installed but in the dining room, BY THE WEEKEND! (a party to impress some people I guess). The skinny on the crown is, it’s 5 1/4″ poplar dental, which I agreed to have painted. Basically he was blown out of the water by my bid.
He started to argue my price with statements about doing simple math calculating how much the trim would cost that he would be paying me about $800 for what couldn’t be more than 6 hours work. I really got pissed off but kept my composure. I explained to him that the trim just doesn’t show up at the job site by it’s self or get to and from the painter by it’s self and I already have 2 hours into the job finding the materials in stock, finding a painter to do work on short notice etc. I also said that I’m surprised that he was shocked by the bid because it was in line with the kitchen price. Of course he doesn’t remember getting that bid.
Thanks for listening to my rant. But what the #$%* do people expect. I didn’t roll out of bed one morning knowing how to do crown. I’ve been honing my skills for the past fifteen years.
Scott R.
Edited 3/6/2003 10:21:31 AM ET by Scott R.
Replies
I think we ALL have customers like that from time to time. Sorry you had to deal with one also.
You might give it a bit of time - He may have had a bad day at work, or a fight with his Wife. If they're a good customer, it might be worth backing off a bit and giving them another chance.
How did you leave things with them?
Q: How can you tell if your husband is dead?
A: The sex is the same, but you get the remote.
Boss, I left the ball in their court. Even though my blood pressure went on a fast pace to over load as soon as he started this mathematical assumption thing, I remained calm and pleasant. He understands that's my price take it or leave it. I believe he's going to shop but he doesn't understand he's in for a rude awaking, even if he does find some fly-by-night hack to do it cheaper.
I don't mind if people believe my prices are beyond their expectations but when there are suggestions that I'm out to gouge... (unprintable)
Additional rant: knowing that the crown cost $7.50 Lf. His mathematics figure that I'm making $150. an hour. DON'T I WISH!!!!
Joe, As a joke I tell people I can do it good, fast and cheap. But not all three together.
Scott R.
>> As a joke I tell people I can do it good, fast and cheap. But not all three together.
That's not a joke. That's a law of nature, just like gravity or magnetism. Good, fast, or cheap. Pick any two.
>>> Good, fast, or cheap. Pick any two.
I can believe fast and cheap, but not good and fast or good and cheap. "Good" costs and also takes time.
John
You're still thinking inside the box. :)
You're right, good and cheap is hard to imagine in a house building context, but good and fast is a lot easier. How much faster would your jobs go if you could erect a steel building with a bridge crane over the job site and do the whole thing without worrying about rain, snow, wind, mud, heat, etc?
What do you think would happen to your scheduling problems if you could line up all your subs before breaking ground and pay them generously to take no other jobs, but just sit on their asses till you needed them?
In a neighborhood where the noise wouldn't be problem, how much could you shorten the schedule by working two or three shifts?
How much faster would the trim go if you offered the top ten trim carpenters in the country a large multiple of their usual rate plus first class air fair, 5 star hotel accomodations, meals, entertainment, laundry service, their choice of rental vehicles, generous blocking already in place, plus more old growth, clear, vertical grain, molding than they could use? And invited them to ship the leftovers home at your expense.
What if each tradesman had a gofer who actually understood what he was trying to accomplish and could get to the store and back without getting lost?
How many rockers and stockers could you put to work in one house? How many painters? What would happen if you a stair guy like Stan or Armin working on each stair in the house?
What if you purchased all the material in advance and had it stored in a dry, secure warehouse before you broke ground? Or paid your suppliers enough that the tradesmen could order stuff at quitting time and it would be there when they showed up in the morning? What if you had a security guard on site overnight so materials and people's tools didn't disappear? Or since security guards are notoriously underpaid, a guard from each of three different companies, so they'd keep an eye on each other.
What if you paid the architect enough to move his office on site for the duration of the project so he would be instantly available to answer questions? What if you greased the inspector so you could get inspections on 20 minutes notice?
Etc. etc.
John,
Uncle Dunc elaborated on the "good and fast" theory but you also expressed doubt on the "good and cheap" aspect. Doesn't happen often but it is possible in the event that the 2 parties agree to have the work done on a fill in the dead time basis in which case the work may be had somewhat cheaper. I've done that with some customers myself though not often.
Mark
I'll agree with the professor here on good and cheap.
I have a friend with a plumbing and heating buisiness. Had him estimate redoing some furnace ductwork for me. He told me what it'd cost. Then said, but if you'll wait until Jan-Feb, I'll do it for 30% less then that. We're not nearly as busy then, and we prefer doing heated interior work in the middle of the winter.
Probably should have taken him up on this, but I'm still thinking of putting in radiant heat rather then improving what's already there.
Billy,
Well now if you decide to do it you got to wait tll next year. LOL
Mark
That was last years offer. I couldn't get the discount this year anyway. The construction hasn't hardly slowed down this winter. Usually it almost stops. The guys I know in the trades say it's been their busiest off season ever. Some are as busy or busier then they normally are at the height of construction season. I appreciated the offer though. He even offered to help design it and then bend up any ducting I wanted so I could install it myself. I've worked with him enough that he knows I could easily do the job.
I doubt I'll do it though. My basement has a 7' ceiling height. I hate to lose any of it to furnace ducts. I brush me head on the current ducting. I could spend the money and improve that a bunch, but if I spend lots of money on a heating system it'll probably be a radiant system which would be invisible once installed.
Hi Scott. Just some background information on me. I work in an office building, at a desk. ZZzzzz - boring. I know very little about construction. Personally, I find it very interesting so I'm trying to learn more on weekends. As I take on new projects, I'm learning firsthand what it really takes to do quality work. Most homeowners are clueless about the time and experience that goes into producing top notch work. So, I think you should keep this in mind whenever you're dealing with people who haven't worked a trade. Many times I have hired the highest bidder because he took the time to explain the project, his expertise and what it would really take to do a good job.
I've always thought the phrase was: Good, Fast, Cheap,... Pick one
It always helps to keep in mind (or even had a copy of this to your client)
View Image
"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
What do "they" expect? That's a hard call to make. Mostly it seems to be to go either slower or faster than we are on the roads; to make more money for less work; and to do all that yesterday if not sooner. (Oops, sorry, that's my rant :) . . . )
As to your rant, I know how much work goes into trim work. I know this from learning by doing (not watching home improvement tv--"They got it done in thirty minutes . . . !") A deep crown with a dentil can be very beautiful--why some people want to compare the price to vinyl-faced foam 3/4" inside corner is beyond me.
Scott, "What do the expect?"
"Faster, cheaper!"
or sometimes,
"Cheaper, faster!"
Joe H
No, it's "Faster! Cheaper! Higher Quality!"
I've found that what most customers expect is the professionalism, talent, accounting, legal, drafting, carpentry, mechanical, painting, plumbing, and flooring skills and the support staff to offer 24 hour prompt service at a quality level that takes a hundred lifetimes to acqurire at the price of a one man outfit, working out of a 20 year old pickup with nothing but a screwdrive and hand saw.
What's not to like about it?Tom
I've invited clients to get other bids on jobs they've felt I'm gouging them on. In some rare cases, I've even encouraged them to hire that guy that gave you such a good price. Sometimes, people do need to learn the hard way on these things.
I'm not trying to sound arrogant, but I feel, like many of you do I'm sure, that I provide quality service and craftsmanship at a fair price. I feel I give clients VALUE. If I charged a nickle and the job is s**t, they paid too much.
The customer is not always right. Whoever made that saying up didn't know anything about business.
the customer is seldom right.
That is what it should have been. In a nicer mood, substitute "occasionally" for seldom.
Dog
Could it have been a mistake to even give them a bid on such short notice?
I've had a couple of situation where I worked repeatedly for someone who eventually seemed to think I owed them something: maybe for hiring me repeatedly, maybe for the referrals, I'm not sure, but I've still run into the phenomenon.
If there was any hint of that in this situation you can at least watch for it in the future and tell them something to the effect of "Can't do it on such short notice". Booked is booked, even if you're just goin' fishin'.
Average Joe says:
I'll wait here while YOU go wrestle the wild alligator.
Hasbeen, I think you nailed it. As luck would have it the past couple jobs I've been able to maneuver so I could get in right away to keep them satisfied and the strong pipe line of referrals going good.
- Also I believe the trigger to this whole ordeal is that I may have unwittingly set a precedent. I first started working for the wife that owns a business. Last year she wanted me to do work for the business but on a per hour basis. When I mentioned my per-hour fee it was way too much (has some cheap handymen on the ready). Since work was very slow after 9-11, I agreed to do a couple jobs at $20 per hour along with some information bartering related to her business. Not much longer did I start doing things at the house on a per bid basis.
Skipping to this week and about my bid being outrageous he says, "I know you work at $20 an hour" so he figures my bid should be about $400-$500 less. At the time I thought what the Hell is he talking about? I finally put two and two together. He must have caught wind about my fee last year at the business. But what he didn't catch was the other part of the agreement and my statement that I could only do that for a very limited time because I barely cover expenses at that rate.
Anybody else ever been caught in a similar precedent labyrinth?
Scott R.
yep... anybody associated with her knows , absolutely, that you work for $20/ hr.
never let 'em see u sweat..
you'd a been better to work at your regular rate and paid her the going rate for the services you barteredMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike nailed it. No matter what you said before or after, the only thing she heard or will ever remember is blah, blah, blah..........., $20/hr, ..............blah, blah, blah. And that's what she'll tell everyone. The one truth in the world is this....they all want to brag about getting a better deal. Even if it's a crappy job, and everyone knows it, they'll brag about the price.
Customers like these are why I , after 12 years of running my own business [and almost 30 years of experience] , decided to give up my business and just work for someone. It was one of the toughest decisions I've ever made, but I was getting tired of the frustration level of trying to keep everyone happy. It was only a few very annoying [I'm being kind] customers, but I carrying my frustration into my personal life [ nothing violent, just bad moods] . Life's too short to be agravated most of the time. Now i'm working for a couple of different contractors on a day-by-day basis, and I'm much happier. Sorry to rant ,but this really hit a nerve.
You know, you don't have to log on and come on in right? Just turn the computer off, and your problems(or at least one of many I'm sure) is solved.
Until then, why do you have to post on every thread?
my question is How?
one by one? That's gonna take some time.....
all at the same time.....that's gotta take some know how?
I'm confused....and impressed!
guess that's why I'll never get no where in life.....I got no drive....
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
scott ; I run into customers like this at times and if they have been good before and then go off then look at the situation you said hes having a party and wants to impress? well my bet is that either he or his wife spent way too much on the party and hes doing the oh #### dance and wants you to be the bargain , well dont give it to him and if hes giving you a hard time then just ignore him for a little while and he will come back. customers are like any other relationship , sometimes you have to read between the lines or look past the issue up front to see whats really up and how much time you put into that depnds on how important they are to you , like I said , its just like any other relationship, some are worth bending over for and some you just let go, and then some you just crank up the price when they give you a hard time and suprizingly enough that makes them happy, good luck
Interesting what you can learn reading these threads. I think the way it evolved hit the nail on the head. Some people do not understand the difference between a favor/special treatment, and the way one normally operates, not that you shouldn't on occassion do favors. Just for some, once or twice and it is expected always.
Jon
Jon,
Well said.
Mark