Having a discussion with my archy. He shows a masonry opening height of 2′-8 1/2″ for an opening, the equipment manufacturer shows a desired size of 2′-6″. Archy says his number is based on unit coursing (he’s right) and “we don’t cut bricks in half to install lintels”.
Why not? Isn’t that what brick saws are for?
“When asked if you can do something, tell’em “Why certainly I can”, then get busy and find a way to do it.” T. Roosevelt
Replies
FastEddie,
it's about the holes in the brick, cut it in the wrong location and you have a potential weak area. Besides masons prefer to cut with their trowel if at all possible..
The holes have nothing to do with it. They go vertically through the brick. They are talking about cutting bricks horizontal.
Go around the neighborhood and look how many windows have split bricks above a lintel (believe they are called soaps) -- usually only see full course bricks.
Thinking the difference in your case may be made up by a masonry window sill that protrudes beyond the wall for drainage.
Ok guys, I wasn't clear. It is not a traditional window with sill, it's just an opening in a brick veneer wall. And the opening height above the floor is fixed by the equipment, so it has to go at a certain distance, but it can be slightly larger than spec. Frenchy, what's wrong with slicing a brick the long way? We would take a brick that is 2-1/4" thick (high) and make it 1" thick. Yes, we will end up with soaps as Dudley pointed out, but is that a structural problem?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Of course it could be done... of course it is unwise to do it. Esthetically and structurally you'll create a problem area. Sounds like you have a good architect... listen to him. The structure wouldn't fall apart because the lintels would hold it together... but those short bricks are likely to crack and they will look awful even if they don't.
Call in your trim carpenter. Two solutions that occur from my distant view are to raise the bottom of the equipment with some sort of platform or to install decorative trim at the top(possibly sides too?).
Can't change the equipment height, it's for a drive-up atm and the height is pretty well fixed. The aesthetics are not an issue because the fiberglass surround will cover about a foot on all sides. My question was structural.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Okay then... no problem... you could even just make a thick joint.
Or soldier course them above to get 3-5/8" with the next up course.
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Isn't 2' 6" simply one less row of brick than 2' 8 1/2"???
According to the coursing chart, 2'-8" is 12 courses of 1 brick + 1 joint. So if you take away one 2-1/4" brick that's less than the needed height.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Huh?
Neither 30" nor 32.5" is a "coursing" height, not the way I was "learnt."
32" is, though. And the 3/8" mortar joint "allows" for the lintel angle, generally.
Equipment people don't "get it"; but that 2'-8 1/2" sounds like a "But that's the dimension AutoCAD shows!" argument.
Now, if there's a rowlock sill or the like, then, all bets is off. Set the lintel to the ehad height, and tip the rowlocks up to reach the instaled frame.
Ok, this will probably get real ugly, mostly cuz I'm ignorant of coursing.
I have no idea what elevation the brick starts at, so that might be a major factor in the actual opening. Fact is, I have the cut sheet from the mfgr and the drawing from the archy that shows the MO, and they don't match. I brought that to the archy's attention, and of course he's insulted that I'm questioning his detail. I asked why the MO is larger than the cut cheet, and he said "we don't cut bricks for lintel heights". So now it's my do-or-die goal to pi$$ him off and see why.
I downloaded a coursing chart from a brick company (don't have it with me) and it pretty much agreed with his MO within less than 1/2".
He and I are at odds anyway: the jobsite is about 2-1/2 or 3 hrs from my office and his, ands he insists on going there twice a month. So that's 6 hours in the car (we ride together) plus an hour on site plus he buys lunch ... what do you think, maybe $900 billable? I'm trying to get him to make one trip a month, and he says it's critical to the project that he goes a minimum or twice a month.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
The porblem is the lintel. It does not end at the opening.It is supported on the ends by being set in the motar. Normally that is between courses.But I supsect that it would be possible to also cut the bricks on the side lenght wise, TWICE. Not only to match the size of the bricks above the lintel in the opening.But you also need to cut those that support the lintel by the thickness of th lintel edge plus the extra mortar.And that joint would show on the side and look like it was a bad afterthrough..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thank you Sir....I was missing that clear statment of the issue....
Eddie,
having read this thread I have a few questions.
1) What is the issue as far as you are concerned? (It sounds to me as if you are spoiling for a fight)
2) If the unit has a 1' trim piece surounding it as you describe no one will ever see any gap above/below or to the sides of the unit anyway. Where is the problem?
3) Why put the masons thru the extra work to cut and lay the cut bricks? It doesn't matter to looks of finished product, strength or anything else.
4)What is your role on this job? I can't determine if you are owner or GC. If you are the owner, tell your employee (the Architect ) one visit a month is sufficient. If you are the G.C. then you aren't paying for his visit anyway so whats the beef? Drive your own vehicle down , buy your own lunch and have him e-mail you his observations.
Edited 2/5/2007 8:42 pm ET by dovetail97128
Brick is modular 2-1/4" high with 3/8" joints.
Not looking for a fight. It started when I somewhat innocently asked the archy why the MO on his drawings did not match the mfgrs required opening size. Some of his dims were off an inch or so, and that's ok. One dim was off 3 inches and another 10 inches.
I am the owner's PM. I'm responsible for the overall budget & construction costs, and we're constantly (like weekly) being told to hold costs down. Don't spend any more than you absoluterly have to. So when I see a chance to cut $5k or so out of my project, I try to do so.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Eddie,
Ahhh, now that I know what your role is I can understand what the quandary is. Being caught in the middle while trying to do your job to the best of your ability is always a bad place to reside.
Are there really any savings to be had in the changing of the openings dimensions?
I can understand your frustration with the architect (although we all make mistakes even those people). I just finished a home last yr for a man who was dying and had a very limited budget and no chance to expand it. ( I was to be the G.C. and was donating a portion of my wages and taking no profit from the job along with many of the subs and suppliers.)
The Architect got on my bad side the very first day when he announced at a meeting that "Owners always have more money than they say they do " His attitude didn't change for the entire job. I just wrote him off as a jerk, not an indictment of the whole profession but just as an individual.
It sound as if a meeting between Owner, G.C. (including you) and the Architect is in order. Lay out your position and see what develops, one cannot squeeze blood from a rock. Take guidance from those above you and let the rest go. You will find yourself dying of a heart attack or have ulcers if you can't make it less personal.
Can the mason put a course of soldiers above the opening? They could then be cut to fit whatever opening is there.
There is no structural issue here. Brick manufacturers sell "split bricks" which are about 1 1/8-in high. If the bricklayer has a wet saw, he can slice the bricks lengthwise in a few minutes. Doing so would not have any affect on the structural integrity of the wall. The coursing of bricks is flexible, within strict limits. Modular bricks fit within the framework of "modular coordination"--a system developed in the 1930s, in which materials fit evenly into a system based on a 4-in. module. Three modular brick courses plus three mortar joints equals 8 inches, the same as one 8-in. block and one mortar joint. Brick courses, however, can be compressed or expanded slightly by making the mortar joints slightly thicker or slightly thinner. On a brick rule the #4 spacing is slightly less than 8-in. and the # 5 spacing is slightly more.
I've followed this thread and cannot figure out why you want to make the opening smaller. If, for some reason, the unit doesn't fit after you've insisted on making the opening smaller, you will be in a world of hurt. It's always more expensive to make anything out of bricks that gets away from whole, uncut bricks. And breaking up courses looks bad. Bricklayers rip bricks or use split bricks as a last resort. In this case, there doesn't seem to be any compelling reason to do so.
mostly cuz I'm ignorant of coursing
Shoot, Diebold et al seem bound and determined to make everybody look "dumb" on coursing.
Modular brick is 'sposed to be exact. Three vertical courses = 8". Period.
Of course, they make other sizes of brick, to make the plastic templates nice an confusing.
But, that 8" module size, 8" horizontal & 8" vertical, also neatly aligns with block coursing.
My fave bank equipment dimensions are the ones "locked" to a variable, like pavement height (the CEs get real stinky if you won't let them slope the pavement) but not the parallel to horizon brick coursing. But, then again, I'm jaded from that 2 1/2"/60mm maximum wall thickness requirement, too . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
looks like you've been there and done that, no?
'splain the wall thickness thing....?
looks like you've been there and done that, no?
Yes, quite. Nice people at [bank equipment manufacturer] will detail up 7-8 pages of stuff for your bank; you then get to try and "back track" all the details into the current design evolution on the bank. It's a job.
'splain the wall thickness thing....?
Ah, some equipment has a pre-built "throat" which will only "span" certain wall thicknesses. If your wall is 11-1/2" wide (6"+5-1/2" for veneer brick, for example) and the equipment will only allow, oh, 2-1/2", that makes for a spiffy detail to draw to try and catch the mason's attention.
Or, for some video-equipped vacuum-tube delivery systems, there's this spiffy bit where you need the wall to only be 5/8" thick (max) about 15-18" wide and up to a header height of 63" The person laying out the framing really needs to be on the ball, as catching this after the fact produces a certain amount of 'friction.'Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"Ah, some equipment has a pre-built "throat" which will only "span" certain wall thicknesses. If your wall is 11-1/2" wide (6"+5-1/2" for veneer brick, for example) and the equipment will only allow, oh, 2-1/2", that makes for a spiffy detail to draw to try and catch the mason's attention."
Maybe that dates from the "Hook a chain to it & pull it away" era of ATM snatch & grabs....now you just steal one of those oversized SUVs & usit to demolish whatever is in the way ;-)
I'm not necessarily trying to make the hole smaller, I'm trying to make it the right size.
Capn, it's always fun when the mfgr specs the height off the finished floor for a driv-up machine, and somebody forgets to take into account that the driveway is 3 inches lower. Or the other way around. Or both ways ... the atm is drawn one way, and the night drop that sits adjacent is drawn the other way, and nobody bothers to read carefully.
Our walls are 12-1/8" thick and the max opening for the atm is 8". The archy shows a thinned wall on the plan view, but no dimension, and no details anywhere.
Those who have not done commercial work would gag if they know how much the plans cost.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
and somebody forgets to take into account that the driveway is 3 inches lower. Or the other way around. Or both ways ... the atm is drawn one way, and the night drop that sits adjacent is drawn the other way, and nobody bothers to read carefully.
LoL! And the BEM only releases their pages in pdf, and bills you to fix their errors.
Even more fun is when there's decorative brickwork, so all the coursing needs to match, and the CEs forget this ("Whaddya mean, the paving has to be xxx from the brick coursing?")
Our walls are 12-1/8" thick and the max opening for the atm is 8". The archy shows a thinned wall on the plan view, but no dimension, and no details anywhere.
We always do, but that's from nearly specializing in banks. There's potentially a good DB market for someone up-to-speed on the finicky bits banks want.
Those who have not done commercial work would gag if they know how much the plans cost.
Well, yeah, but that'd probably be true for most res v. comm architecture, too. Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
seems like your working on a bank. next time your stuck in the car with archy tell him the truck lane needs to accomidate truck mirrors!!!!
3 different banks had to pull them in on my truck. work truck once tried to pull it in and pulled it off.
worst part is in all cases truck fit in but didnt fit out.
BrianWI
for a freaking ATM opening....can you say goldbricking...
Bill Heartman has the right idea concerning lentil placement. If it is not placed at the regular interval of a mortar joint, it looks goofy, especially since the lintel often extends 6" or more wider than either side of the opening.
One missing piece to this puzzle: What kind of brick are you talking about? Modular, standard, oversized, engineer, jumbo, etc, etc
Around here, most popular are standard (also called modular) and oversized, for residential construction, but they are used quite a bit in commercial too.
Standard brick course out at 8". What that means is that 3 courses of standard brick, with mortar joints between, and a mortar joint on the bottom = 8". Mortar joints are normally roughly 3/8". So, the actual height of one brick with a mortar joint is 2 2/3", or 2 1/4" with no mortar joint. Really though, the height of a brick with no mortar joint is irrelevant unless you are not using mortar. So, 8" / 3=2.666" which is the number you work with for standard brick.
Oversized brick course out at 16". So, 5 courses of oversized course out at 16". That includes 4 mortar joint plus one on the bottom. So each brick is 16"/ 5=3.2" including the mortar joint or actually a little less than 3" without the mortar joint.
This coursing out thing all relates to the size of regular cinderblock, which is 7 5/8 tall + 3/8" mortar joint = 8" Two courses = 16" , Three courses = etc, etc. Now, one might say what do cinderblock have to do with brick veneer? Well nothing, except in residential construction brick and block are often used together, and you want them to course out so that 1) ladder wire can be placed so as to tie the two together, and 2) for example, for a house with a brick veneered block crawlspace foundation that bets siding rather than a sidewall treatment of brick veneer, you want the brick and block to come out flush at the top of the foundation.
So if the application is strictly veneer, bricks don't have to course out, but it is nice if they course out at the top of openings if you want the job to look professional.
Further, brick sizes are often scaled to the building size. So, a less expensive house often gets the slightly smaller modular bricks, and more expensive houses might more commonly get oversized brick. Likewise, a Home Depot, grocery store or a warehouse might be faced with something larger - like maybe double which course out at 40".
To tell you the truth though, I'm not sure where your archi got the extra 1/2" although, again, I don't know what size prick you are using.
One other thing: when doing masonry you always make your openings a little big - because then things will always fit. If they don't fit, obviously, it really sucks. It's not like you can just take another 1/4" off with your utility knife or skill saw. :-) If you want tight tolerances, then, for example, you install the door first and then brick around the door frame molding (brick mold).
Hope this helps. Personally I'd question the architect again. They do make mistakes...
What size brick are you using? Keith C
I know this is a little late but see that attached pic of where the lintel did not line up with the brick coursing. In this case, the coursing was laid so as to align with window openings, but it just didn't work out at the door opening. So, what the bricklayers did on the door was to take the 4x6 steel lintel and cut a piece off the 4" dimension about 3/4" x 6" on each end. Then they cut the bricks to fit in front of the cutout portion so as to get a good look. Maybe not the best situation, but note in the pic that there is virtually no load on the lintel. I'm just posting this so you can see that it can be done.
BTW - did you ever find out how the archi came up with 32.5" for the coursing?