Hi all,
I really hate to start a post by saying, “This is probably a dumb question,” but… I can’t seem to find this in the 15 or so elctrical books I’ve read so here goes. I’m doing a bathroom remodel and will be having two new home runs installed for the GFCIs and lights/fan. 20A dedicated for the GFCIs is obvious, new 15A for the rest because I feel like the old one is on the verge of being overloaded as it is and I’m adding some new fixtures – A fresh start if you will.
My question is what to do with the old circut end? I’m imagining the answer is to remove any extraneous cable from the incoming power cable (stuff from the first box out to recept./switches/fan) and then just put hot to neutral to complete the circut for upstream stuff and put ground wire to the metal junction box housing? Does this sound right? In the future I may plan on using it again in the adjoining room so I’m planning on leaving it slightly accessable. Thanks for the help everyone!
Erich
Replies
It is obvious enough from your proposed method, that you really should be calling a licensed electrician for this task. I'm not saying that just because I like licensed tradespersons. I'm saying taht so you won't kill youself and your family in the resulting fire.
Really -- have a pro do this one.
Hi YesM.,
Opinion duely noted. I'm certainly having my electrician run the new circut homeruns, no question there. He'll be taking the cables from the panel to the new room's first boxes, I'm going to rough in everything else prior to him coming and he's checking it. Don't worry, I don't want me or my family burnt to crispy just so I can say I wired my new bath (no need for that ego boost :) ).
That said, are you concerned with the adding of two new circuts, or with the terminating of the old one? It seems that ending an old circut that's properly de-energized before working on it would not be outside the realm of possibility for a non-electrician. I gather my line of thinking in coming up with the way to correctly do it was wrong (like I said, can't find a resource for the right way)? Since you seem to know how, maybe you could explain it and mention what the dangers are if one follows the proper procedure. If it's outside my scope, so be it, but at least that way I'll have more knowledge than I did before.
I appreciate your response, really. Oh, and I like liscensed professionals too, I am one - just not an electrician. Thanks again Yes'M and everybody...
Erich
It is impossible to answer without knowing how everyting else is currently wired. But whatever you do, DO NOT connect hot to neutral!
I kind of agree with Yes Ma'am - your question demonstrates not only a lack of knowledge of a "fine point," but of fundamental concepts of residential wiring.
In my view, wiring isn't just following a chart - if you don't understand what is going on in the most fundamental sense, as soon as you run into a situation you don't have explicitely mapped out for you, you're like to do something dangerous.
Is your life and your family's life worth it? Your neighbors'? The firefighters who might have to come?
Are you willing to spend the time to learn what you need to know to keep from putting them at risk?
_______________________
10 .... I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.
11 For no one can lay any other foundation than the one we already have--Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:10-11
Where' AJ when you need him?
David, would this do?
Joe H
Thanks Joe, that's not bad, altho I'm not sure it contains the depth of cynicism and sarcasm AJ would have served up - -
erich, don't be put off - you asked a good question in that if you had not and had proceeded with your original proposal, bad things might have happened - good luck with your project...
David,
Thanks for the best wishes. I'm not at all put off. I'm a little embarrased for having pointed out that I don't understand everything (can you imagine that - just don't tell my better half), but as you say, I'm glad I asked. There's always more everybody can learn. The bath project is going to be a biggie. The deck that people here helped me with turned out great last winter, even the inspector gave me a few kudos, but this will be my first big interior project. I'm sure I'll have a few more questions along the way and I'll let everybody know how it turns out. Thanks again, and take care...
Erich
Dead end circuits end at the last fixture in the run, be it a light or a socket or a switch. The hot is connected to the hot lead on the fixture, socket or switch. Neutral to the other side for each. DO NOT under any circumstances connect the hot to the neutral, it will spark and will short and will trip the breaker, or cause a fire or all of the above.
By the way, everycircuit at some point is a dead end circuit. They always end somewhere, right?
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Boris,
Thank you for saying that last bit about "The hot is connected to the hot lead on the fixture, socket or switch. Neutral to the other side for each." That's exactly why I was thinking the way I was: hot in - neutral out, with an outlet or light, or whatever in between, the the neutral goes back to the panel, etc.... That's what I was thinking you'd do to solve the problem of an abandoned circut, I guess the flaw in my thinking is that there ISN'T something in between to take the load, hence the short scenario. Now I see the light (or since there's nothing in between, the dark?) :) .
I guess what I want to know is, CAN you in fact dead end a circut by some other means than removing all the cable back to the next socket/light/whatever upstream that you want to keep? I'm not saying ME particularly, but theoretically is there a way to do that so you can use the dead end later?
All, I'm perfectly content to take my lumps from everybody on this one, that's how we learn. BUT, jeez, I'm just getting information at this point. Bob and B.B., trust me, I'm not going to run upstairs right now and just start doing stuff I don't know about, especially with electricity. I suppose there's enough of that out there though, and you don't know that about me. Also, I understand that you're actually trying to help me avoid those disasters you mentioned. Thanks. Bob, I'm here trying to do what you suggest - get more information. Do I have it right now? Do you have to go all the way back to the next unit upstream? Again, Thanks for the replies, you guys are the best.
Erich
I extend circuits all the time without a fixture. At the last live fixture run your romex or pull your no. 12's through conduit to an exposed box. It could be a ceiling box (like a hex) or a wall box (for sconces) or a lower wall box (for an outlet). Then cap the wires with suitable wire nuts and tape them over with the right colored tape, black for hot; white for neutral and the green can just lay there. Cover the box with a plate, and call it a day. Saves you pulling that wire later. The box must be exposed however (e.g., have an exposed cover). It can not be buried.
What I like to do is just run 12-3 to everything so I have an extra wire for future use.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
You know they say a little knowledge is dangerous?
I have to weigh in here with the others who said to have your electrician deal with this. In your initial and in subsequent posts you have clearly indicated that you don't understand the issue.
If you must, do what Boris said to do, but have your sparky look at it before you cover it up with a plate.
Maybe you're like me and need to watch to learn, as in: if you can't get it by reading, take a class.
I know this is redundant, but never hook hot to neutral. If you have a hot wire that's not needed any longer, cap it and tape it. Don't connect it to anything.
You started out by saying something about "stupid question". You have demonstrated once again that the only stupid question is the one you didn't ask. I think I might be spaeking for others besides myself in saying, "Glad you asked that question!"
Good luck. Keep applying yourself, you'll get it.
Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
I'm not real clear what your doing. I gather there is going to be abandoned wiring left in the walls.
After many years I notice four schools of thought. Each with advantages and issues:
1) Physically remove all unused cables. Get them out of the walls, attic, crawl spaces. Roll them up and take the mess to the recycling center. Single conductors may remain in place where there is the expectation that at a later date cables may need to be pulled in. The up side of this is that it is the neatest, cleanest and most sure method of making sure live wires are not left behind. It also makes trouble shooting much easier as any cables found can then be assumed to be live and in use.
The down side: Wiring can be very difficult to completely remove if the circuits were not pulled in conduit. Romex stapled to studs and hidden behind plaster is almost impossible to completely remove without tearing up walls.
2) Cut the cable ends short at each end and stuff the tails back into the wall spaces. Makes sense if you do this beginning at the panel and to each box involved. Out of sight. Out of mind. The unused cables, be dead sure everything is truly disconnected, will silently molder away.
The down side is that these abandoned cables remain. After the third such rewire the walls can be thick with a confusing mix of abandoned and live cables. Going into an attic to splice in a set of boxes to extend a circuit and finding four cables where you are expecting to find only one makes for long days.
Also if a local handyman should get hold of any of the ends any that are reenergized can remain snakes in the wall perpetually threatening to shock anyone feeling around or to short out and cause a smoldering fire. I have been shocked by wires that had been abandoned 40 years earlier. Had they shifted 6" any time during those years they could have sparked against the plumbing.
3) An alternative is to keep the cables in the boxes but cut off just enough to make capping them off and neatly tucking them into the back easy. Capping them off is generally thought to be a good idea even though both ends of each wire in the cable are disconnected. Smaller wire nuts, some sizes and brands are better than others at holding onto single conductors, and/or tape is the ticket.
The up side is that abandoned cables can be tracked so those mystery cables in the walls can be identified by looking in the boxes. The down side is that the cable tails and wire nuts take up valuable room in the smaller boxes common to old building. The wires still count for cable fill but some inspectors will give you a pass if the job is neatly done by known reputable electricians.
4) < Removes street clothes and puts on Nomex coverall and switch pullers suit. > An alternative is to keep the cable ends in the panels and boxes but to connect all the conductors in each cable together under a single wire nut. Again this is done starting at the panel.
Advantages: You still have cable ends to count so mystery cables are less a problem. A physical history of the previous wiring. One wire nut takes up less time to install and less room in potentially tight boxes, you have to love getting a GFI into small angled corner steel boxes, than a nut for every conductor. If anyone should connect a lead to a breaker the breaker will trip immediately. No chance of it becoming a snake in the wall.
Connect. Turn on breaker... poof. After the third go even the densest handyman keeps it disconnected. Much less danger of dual, back, feeding circuits, dual neutrals or stray currents in the ground system. With both ends of all conductors tied together the cable is sure to be dead as the dodo and remain that way.
My preferences for abandoned circuits are #1, complete removal, and 4, capped at both ends H-N-G together. Sometimes a mix of the two works well. Attics and crawl spaces get stripped. Wall spaces get capped.
I assume with #4, the grounding conductor remains grounded at the panel? Otherwise, the breaker doesn't necessarily trip, and you don't meet the code requirement of keeping exposed (uninsulated) metal grounded.
4Lorn,
Thanks so much for the time it must've taken to write, and for actually attempting to answer my question (That goes for Boris, and HasBeen too - and for HasBeen, thanks for the encouragment to keep learning and applying myself). You're pretty much right, abandoned wiring, not necessarily permanently though, so I don't want to remove it totally. I've talked to my electrician (at the behest of everybody here looking out for me ;)) and he seems to advocate Borris'/HasBeen's method, but we're going to put the box in the attic (right above room in question).
Thanks again everybody (who is here to educate, not berate) for chiming in, I've definately learned a couple of things. One of them is that even if all you do is post a question here about your mis-understanding of things electrical you might end up with crispy fire-fighters at your house, :) . Take care all, stay non-crispy...
Erich