Ok here goes; I’ve been reading FH for a long time, and I will say that I’ve gained a ton of info from all you guys.The breaktime discussions are always interesting and informative, and now I feel the need to give some input myself. FYI, been framing houses for 21 years, the first 10 of which with a very reputable framer who is still swinging at 69….
Is anyone else as baffled as I am about the new urgency regarding deck ledger attachments ? While I certainly understand the importance of good structural & flashing details, It seems to me that every other day, someone has a new deffinitive way to do this, each one more difficult, expensive, and time consuming than the next.In the simplest terms; my method has always been the following: aluminum flashing lapped min 1″ below sill, 3″ above ledger, w/ membrane covering all.1-9/16 drip cap over ledger, housewrap overlapping drip cap.2x stock nailed 3-16d Galv spikes 16″o.c. Carriage bolts every 16″, staggered 2-3″ up or down each bay,w/2 at each end and at joints in ledger where deck longer than 16 ft.In instances where carriage bolts not practical(replacement) 1/2″ x 5″ lags into rim; same pattern. Both ends of floor joists hung w/hangers, posts thru bolted.
In the latest issue of FH I’m blown away by the trouble J. Spier goes to to bolt this deck on. I would bet big $ that I could park a truck on any of the decks I’ve built.I certainly don’t mean to take away from Mr. Spier, who is obviously a talented and conscientious builder, but does anyone else think this is overkill?If I can park a truck on my deck, is it therefore “better” to be able to park two trucks on it? Either way it’s built way over the demands placed on it.(Don’t spank me with tales of people dancing on decks, please; I’m also a firefighter, and having been to a few deck collapses, NONE were the result of improperly anchored decks, in fact 8 out of 9 were rotted away)
Just thought I’d throw it out there……Bing
PS J. Spier see ya at Ballards
Replies
Some of the stuff in that article had me buffaloed too. Nothing wrong with the way you are doing it that I can see, myself, though you didn't say the type of finish or material on the fasteners. Now that ACQ has been found to destroy normal electroplate galv in a couple years in a wet or damp environment, decks are getting special attention. Add to that the fact that every year, in June when graduation parties are epidemic, you get to hear about a party where dozens of revelors are dancing drunk on an overlaoded deck and it collapses, sometimes because of overload, and more often because it was underbuilt by jacklegs or DIYs. Deaths ensue and lawsuits do too.
so the attention the trade jouranals are focusing on this part of home bui8lding is warranted. Too many AHJs that do thorough inspections on the main house have almost no requirments for decks. Taht is one that should be changed.
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"NONE were the result of improperly anchored decks, in fact 8 out of 9 were rotted away)"
Or in the case of an architecture professor I know, his builder undersized the fastners from what was specified. :-(
I have to say, my question is, "Why are people still installing decks with ledgers at all?" I don't get it. Don't attach the deck to the house, just put in a couple more posts. Leave enough of a gap at the house to allow water past, but not so much a toe can get stuck. You're already putting some posts in, why not put a few more in and just forget about all that other stuff? It is always going to be hazardous (or require lots of dilegence) to deal with everything that cannot be seen on the house, so why bother?
Anyway, that's what I did on my last house. In part because the siding on the house was two different materials, but really, I think it is easier.
I suppose you could put posts in @ the house wall, but I can see a few problems with that. First, it gives you no support laterally, so the deck can move side to side, unless you have some pretty sturdy diagonals bolted to the posts in every direction. Second, where I live (S.east Mass), I can only imagine how much tree gunk, leaves etc. would become trapped in that space. I also think it's a lot easier to frame a deck when one whole side is fixed when you start, as opposed to four sides floating till it's all leveled up.
anyhoo.............
Bing
I also build 99% of my decks freestanding for two reasons: 1)Most decks in my area are at or near ground level; and 2) Most houses in my area are built on slabs. Between 0 and 5 feet above ground there's not a whole lot of "sway" that's going to occur.
Of course on 2nd story or piling (coastal) homes, there's usually a rim/ledger connection involved.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
What about "anti-sway ledgers"? Support the deck load with the required posts and beams but still add in a ledger properly weatherproofed. The added load support would prevent the ledger from pulling away under load and time (what happens to your kitchen wall when 75 buzzed teenies do the stomp on your deck when you're at the beach for a "getaway"?) I know it calculates as double work but do the peace of mind of an independently supported deck married with the stabilization of a ledger not warrant it? But then is peace of mind too much to be expected in any marriage?
I think adding a ledger to brace off a free-standing deck is pointless.You still have the penetration to the building envelope which provides an avenue for moisture and all that goes along with it. The water and rot do not care whether your ledger is for bearing or bracing.Installing a ledger to function as bracing (which is very effective, btw) demands that the ledger perform well. So I don't see that you have really gained anything, but the cost is another potential problem spot.I think the ledger topic has seen way too much attention from a select group of people. The decks that collapse are, for the most part, decks that would never be built by a conscientious builder. If a ledger is bolted according to code tight to the properly fastened rim and is flashed as it should be, I don't believe you will ever have trouble.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com
What I'm wondering is, if a properly engineered freestanding deck is ledgered to the building, what is the amount of non-load bearing ledgering required? A question for the engineers of course but consider this... if the deck structure is freestanding and self-supporting would a full length ledger be required? Would such a board need to penetrate the house envelope as often as a load bearing one? By isolating the penetrations a builder could focus more resources on effectively weatherproofing smaller areas versus a 16, 24, or 33 foot running break in the siding.
I never thought about what you're suggesting but I don't think I would be interested in the concept.If *I* were to build a deck I would either fully incorporate the ledger or omit it entirely. For me flashing 2 4' sections would be just about as much work as flashing 24'.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com
The last part of your post is my original point,exactly. Re-inventing a perfectly (when made correctly ) fine wheel. Ledger for a self supporting deck? Lets see how much more of a pain in the #### we can make this!How about cantilevering the deck, adding posts inside and out, diagonally bracing down to a 6 ton concrete anchor, with diagonal 1" cable as a backup...................................
I'm sure my sarcasm isn't appreciated but c'mon folks
Bing
You might want to check out the recent rash of deck collapses, particularly one in Chicago which killed quite a few people and the other collapse where the mom filled up the kids' pool on the deck (second floor level if I remember right). As a brother firefighter, you probably know roughly 8.35 lbs/gal, then think about what the pool was holding. In the first case, the deck was "allegedly" not built to code (no surprise there that it failed) and in the second, mom "overloaded" the deck and it failed even though it was built to code. There was also the landscaper here in RI working under a deck which fell off the under construction house (roughly 8 ft off grade) and killed him. Never heard anything about it being built to code or not. Bottom line is to plan for the worst and then be "disappointed" when it doesn't happen. That also doesn't mean to add your cable and counter-balance, at least do it to comply with the local code (the minimum requirement for safety), get it inspected and move on. If you want to be a little better, make it a little stronger.
You make some good points. Still, it seems like the problem is getting blown out of proportion, in part due to the media. These days, sensationalism sells, especially when it comes to the news. When a porch or deck fails, the media is all over it. But when you think about it, what percentage of decks ever fail? It's got to be miniscule when you consider how many decks & porches are out there.I'm not suggesting attention shouldn't be paid to the ledger connection; only that the problems may not be as widespread as the media has us believe. If some common sense is used both during construction & afterwards in proper use & loading of the deck, the failures wouldn't happen.Regarding the porch collapse in Chicago 2 years ago: That particular porch had been standing for 5 or 6 years, IIRC, prior to its collapse. What you may not have heard about the story is that the porch had between 60 & 90 people partying on it, depending on whose account you read, plus a number of kegs of beer. In that case, it was clearly overloaded, to the point of catastrophic failure, yet the fingers were immediately pointed at the builder. Could he ever have foreseen that kind of use or load for what was supposed to be a utility porch?What concerns me more than the ledger issue is the use of substandard hardware in conjunction with ACQ lumber. How many of the decks being built today do you think we'll see fail in the coming years because the homeowner or hack contractor didn't use proper hardware & fasteners, either because they didn't know any better, or simply didn't care? Building a deck used to be pretty straightforward, well within the capabilities of a decent DIY'er. Now, you had better know exactly what you're doing, or you risk a real tragedy.
Personally, I don't think there is enough media attention to the deck structure problem. Reason is that I only hear about it in the trade journals and sites like this. The average Joe sixpack building his own deck on the weekend is the one who needs to be better educated about it. I don't know if Lowes and HD are doing their part there or not.The one in chitown was from both overloading and insufficient fastening.
I believe the one with the pool on it was from both also. I have saved the photos from that one in my PCI have begun to redesign the way I structure dedcks with the new PT because of doubts...I know my decks will not hurt anyone.But re some of your other doubts, I have had many an occasion to re[lace and re[air decks that were poorly b uilt. more than that - I would say that fifty percent of them end up requiring structural repair in the house proper also, due to rot caused by improper ladger attachments. Given the concerns popping up all over the place about molds, I'm afraid I can't go along with you on pooh-poohing this subject area. It is a serious problem, epidemic, if you will
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Piffin, you & I are in (partial) agreement. I never suggested the issues should be ignored. I merely said that I felt the media tends to blow things out of proportion. Let's face it: Any type of structural collapse makes for good tv, as far as most networks are concerned.I live in the western suburbs of Chicago, & I can tell you first hand that the media hype surrounding that porch collapse was something to see. I'm by no means trivializing these failures, or the loss of life. I'm just saying that given the number of decks & porches out there, the failures are relatively few & far between... for now.I specifically pointed out my concerns about the new ACQ lumber & using improper fasteners with it. To me, I feel that this could lead to an epidemic of failures in the years to come, & I agree with you 100% that people using ACQ need to get better educated.The porch collapse that happened here 2 years ago could have been prevented if (1) the city had done a proper inspection when the porch was built & (2) the porch had been used for its intended purpose, which was to provide a secondary means of egress to the apartments it served & access to the rear of the property. The porch was NEVER intended to function as a party spot, & had stood up just fine to normal use for 5 or 6 years before it was overloaded & collapsed.There's no question the builder should have done a better job of securing it, but what would it have taken to make it stand up to the huge loads placed on it? Even if it had been engineered, might it not still have failed under the unusually large load? I realize no one can answer these questions, Piffin. I'm just arguing that there needs to be common sense used, as well as proper construction techniques.
As an adjunct to my post, I never thought that a properly tied in deck required independent support as any competent carpenter knows. Rather there may be instances where it may be warranted. It seems that most collapses happen in rental properties rented by college age adults(this is an unscientific assumption and may well bear further scrutiny). A building owner who contracts me to build a high first floor deck or even higher structure will receive a bid from me reflecting my over-engineering as it seems I'm the first one he points at when the press is sniffing up his hindend after an accident. If I don't get the job, well I'll try not to say I told you so but...
Would I like to be able to run framing members into the structure and sister them solidly? Of course but I can't economically and in most situations it is unwarranted. I'm guessing this is an old hash and most of everybody is tired of hearing it. "And so it goes..."(Kurt Vonnegut)
Running joists in to sister might possibly make for a stronger structure - until the water that it bleeds in causes it to rot and the main structure with it. i've never seen one of those that didn't create more problems and maint cost than it was worth.
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I dont think a deck built by anyone who reads FHB or Breaktime is going to collapse period.
Methinks its the hacks who just nail the ledger on w/no bolts or lags at all who have decks fail.
I helped a friend build a deck onto his toll brothers condo couple mos ago. We were removing the vinyl siding to flash the ledger. My buddy's wife comes out asking why in the heck were we removing the siding?
Turns out she saw the deck built right next door. They were done in a day. Didn't even remove the siding.....
That is exactly how I do mine. Your a genius!! :) Rather than carriage bolts I use GRK,s. Much faster as well. BW, Chuck Keller
If, at first, you fricascee, fry, fry a hen!
Thanks, Chuck; I've been telling my wife that for years.I hope everyone reading bthis thread understands that I'm not knocking anyone, I just question some of the methods I've seen. To brother firedude, " I hear ya " but I say that the collapses you refer to are much more a consequence of the EXISTING methods and codes not being properly used/ enforced, not an indication of a problem needing a new solution.
peace
Bing
Looking for the swimming pool/deck collapse I found this site.http://www.thehomeinspector.com/Clients/WDPoolCollapse.htmlAlso has stores on other collapses.But I like this one.http://www.thehomeinspector.com/Clients/WDSafeMyOpinion.html#Anchor-172263 week old deck on new home by major home builder. Ledger board fasten by 2" screws.But in googling for this there was this ad from a lawyer trying to find clients for class action lawsuite on coroded fastners on ACQ decks.http://www.lieffcabraser.com/fastener.htm
Ooops, better hide that last one quick! LOL
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Bill, even though the headline says that the failure was due to gross overloading, the quote in the story states that there is now way to be certain that it was built to code, or that it had not begun to fail in normal service.remeber when we analyused this collapse here? We had larger photos to work from, but I think you can still see in the smaller versions linked in the story, that the outside rimjoist was just a single which apparantly was lagged into the side of the posts - not the trim one still there, but the inner one that canbe seen lying at an angle down nearly parralel to the stair stringers. I think that was the intitial point of failure, when the water loading broke or tore the lags out of the posts.i'm not saying that the deck should have held the water. The woman was a fool, but the decks seemed underbuilt to me from the get go also, and would have eventually failed, though maybe slowly enough to be noticeable.
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