Hello everybody. I’m new to the site and have limited framing experience. My question involves deck framing, specifically how to secure posts to the deck framing. My deck is a second story deck (that I will be building from scratch) and will be supported by a ledger on the house side, and 6×6 posts at the other end. The 6×6 posts will be notched to support a double 2×12 beam. The beam of course will support the joists along with the ledger. I want to also build a shed roof over the deck that will again fasten to the house on one side, and slope down over the deck. My question is how to fasten the 4×4 posts that I plan on using to support the roof. I figure they need to be directly over the 6×6 posts underneath them (for load bearing). In many of the articles I’ve read, it seems the common practice is to use one continuous post all the way up to make up the railing posts. Because of the length involved, I don’t think I can do this. To sum up, what is the best way to fasten these 4×4’s to the framing so the are sturdy (the challenging part being the are directly on top of the 6×6’s below). Thanks very much for reading my babble.
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What is the length and width of the deck and roof above? I would use 6x6 posts for the roof.
length of deck is 38' width is 16'. The roof will cover 28' of the deck. I like your idea of one continuous piece, but figure I will need almost 18' of 6x6 to do this. Do they make them that long, and will I need a crane or ten helpers to get them in place!
We did a deck in the Mtns. on a STEEP site, had 26' 8x8 PT posts, yes, it is HARD to get them up. Long gin poles and 3 of us, one guy guideing the foot at a slant board that kicked the bottom in the hole. It was hell.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
If you don't do this for a living, I suggest taking FHB and then signing up for their online archive - which is about $20/year to subscribers. There is a lot of fine articles on decks in there.
Don't know if you can read this one, but here is one that suggests an approach - run the 6x6 up to support the lid as well as the deck.
<http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/how-to/articles/better-ways-to-frame-deck.aspx?ac=fp>
If you are using the current PT wood, better read up on galvanic corrosion. It's a serious issue. Most of the articles do not reflect the current Best Practices on dealing with the issue
Go off to Grace and read up. Then check out Simpson - those HDG fasteners slow, not stop corrosion. When they are gone...
<http://www.graceathome.com/pages/deckingprod.htm>
One thing I often see screwed up is the ledger connection, drainage and flashing.
Black and Decker has a nice How TO book on decks. Also check the Taunton publications.
The ToolBear
"I am still learning." Goya
Toolbear: Thanks for the replies. I'm one ahead of you, I have already subscribed to fine homebuilding online and have read the article you mentioned. Reference my response to T White concerning the length of the 6x6's if I run them up to the roof. Aside from the weight, do I have to concern myself with twist on such a long piece of lumber? I also appreciate the info on corrosion. Do you think the zmax fittings are sufficient protection or would you use the barrier as well. Thanks.Dave
Do you think the zmax fittings are sufficient protection or would you use the barrier as well. Thanks.@@@No zinc plated fitting will offer long term protection. The zinc goes away first, then the steel starts to go. Thick zinc coating = takes longer to go. But it will go. The "when" is based on many variables.At a Habitat project, we found after six months the plating on the bolts in the post - elevated post base connection was gone where it ran through the post. The sides of the EPB in contact with the wood were fully rusted. In fact, there was a rust crust on the edge showing. I was the bearer of bad news and the term "galvanic corrosion" was a new one for them.What you want to do is electrically isolate the metal from the wood to the greatest extent possible. That takes some sort of insulating material - plastic, rubber, Vycor, etc. Your PT deck is a battery, and what you want to do is cut the size of the plates in the battery to reduce the rate of galvanic corrosion.I did a retrofit and jacked up the posts to insert shingle material between the post base and the EPB and then Vycor between the side tabs and the post. This is really something that has to happen at the start. I really don't want to think about the ledger they did. No retrofit there. Simpson has a bunch of material worth reading...<http://www.strongtie.com/productuse/barriersfaqs.html><http://www.strongtie.com/productuse/corrosion_risks.html><http://www.strongtie.com/ftp/bulletins/T-PTWOOD08-R.pdf>This warning from Simpson is a new interpolation in the document..."WarningWhile galvanized steel provides some protection, testing has shown that it is still likely to corrode if in contact with treated wood. The service life of galvanized parts depends on many variables including the location, installation, exposure, and the thickness of the galvanized coating."There, they covered their butts. The fasteners are going away. Who knows when.I liked their recommendation to use SS or bronze. For a first rate job - and this is your deck - I would go stainless. At times I wonder if you could use trunnels (Mr. Inspector would have a cow.)<http://www.worldwideflood.com/ark/design_calculations/tree_nails.htm>Design wise - if you deck is held on with fasteners that WILL corrode, you might like to have the thing resting on beams resting on posts - in compression - vs. hanging off ledgers and rim joists (in shear).(Question of twist in a long PT post is a very valid one. It's valid in short ones. Piffin does elegant work and may have a solution. Off the top, I suggest hand selection and avoid those big knots. Hard to to.)The ToolBear
"I am still learning." Goya
Very good points. Maybe ss and the wrap is the way to go. As far as not using joist hangers, at least on the beam side, I did consider a cantilever design but then ran into the issue of having the roof posts not bearing directly on the 6x6's below. What do you think?
Very good points. Maybe ss and the wrap is the way to go. As far as not using joist hangers, at least on the beam side, I did consider a cantilever design but then ran into the issue of having the roof posts not bearing directly on the 6x6's below. What do you think?@@@Being a visual learner guy, I am having trouble visualizing this. If you post a sketch, the forum will give you much more focused input.I use ledgers and hangers, but the hanger is sitting on Vycor and the butt of the joist is wrapped to minimize wood/metal contact.The ToolBear
"I am still learning." Goya
Hello again. Although this topic is different from my original thread, being concerned with fastener corrosion, I checked out Grace Construction Products website. I was planning on isolating the ledgers and the ends of the joists as this company recommends and as I have read in Fine Homebuilding articles. I was also planning (or at least considering) using stainless steel fittings. If you look at number 9 under frequently asked questions, they do not recommend using their product with stainless steel fittings. Any thoughts on this? Would you be inclined to use zmax fittings and use the wrap or just use ss with no wrap?
they do not recommend using their product with stainless steel fittings. Any thoughts on this? Would you be inclined to use zmax fittings and use the wrap or just use ss with no wrap?@@@No Mix N Match. It makes a battery. While this chart is for seawater, the same thing happens on land. One of my jobs in the past involved the area lighting on 92 acres of homes, so I lived galvanic corrosion. Consider that acid rain is similar to a mild battery electrolyte<http://www.ocean.udel.edu/seagrant/publications/corrosion.html>You can see that SS and Zinc are rather far apart in the chart, i.e., greater voltage drop and better current flow. I have seen SS enclosures with common steel fasteners, handles, etc. in the field. The SS is doing just fine. The fasteners, etc. are usually in bad shape.The problem is that SS hangers and such are $$$. They are out there. I see them at the JLC Expo. Never costed them as it runs the bid up. You might run the numbers. Since this is your own deck, it might be cost effective.On the other hand, Vycor and good insulation protocols combined with extra zinc coating should do the job. Try to avoid lag screws <g>. Can you get inside to properly bolt the ledger? It may become necessary to inspect and replace bolts from time to time.I have seen more ledger details screwed up than ... Some of the older FHB articles do not really come to grips with galvanic corrosion issues in detailing a ledger. Be aware. Check the date.(This is coming from Henry Island, Wa. There is a nice causeway up the dock from my boat that done in the old CCA PT material. The galvi fasteners are looking just fine. Not a spot of rust. Old ways are good ways. Of course, the would use lag screws, and the lags do not penetrate, so the holding power of the railing is compromised...So it goes.)The ToolBear
"I am still learning." Goya
Thanks for the info. I don't live near the coast, but it is humid here (GA). I will cost it out and then decide which way to go. As far as the ledger, about half the length is inaccessible so I will have to use lags there. I will use through bolts on the other half. I have also looked up several recent FHB articles dealing with installing ledgers and they seem to cover the bases. Again, thanks for the input.
Additional SS prices.http://www.manasquanfasteners.com/framing_straps
I will have to use lags there. @@@Underdrill the pilot holes (3/8 for 1/2) and make sure the lag is long enough that the tip come thru, so the full diameter of threads has bearing.Sounds like a fun project.The ToolBear
"I am still learning." Goya
Yea, fun project if I can get my wife to decide/agree on what she wants!
Yea, fun project if I can get my wife to decide/agree on what she wants!@@@ My wife is often found reading JLC or FHB before I get home. Is a woman educated beyond her station if she knows the dif between ledger and lookout?I usually produce one to three options ("You can have one from column A or two from column B.") She will turn out her idea clipping file and produce several options and we discuss. Sketch up what you/she want. Saves a lot of trouble, time and money. I'd look at the many deck books. Taunton has some offerings in this field. Proven designs are proven because they work. My SonInLaw was something of his own architect in doing his estancia. As a result he just blew the master BR, the kitchen and the master bath (too big, takes room from MRB - which is too small, etc.)The ToolBear
"I am still learning." Goya
Some stainless fastener and hanger prices...<http://www.stainless-fasteners.com/joist-hanger-connectors.htm>The ToolBear
"I am still learning." Goya
Here is a fun brochure from WR Grace (think: Vycor) for your deck design.
<http://www.graceathome.com/pages/downloads/TP_121.pdf>
They do seem to show the entire world covered in Vycor, which, of course, is what they sell. (Vycor, WFIW, is Good Stuff.)
I would have Vycor under every joist hanger as an insulator, but I can't see the need of covering the entire ledger. The idea is to insulate metal from copper treated wood. Failing that - you now have a battery and best Wiki on "galvanic corrosion."
My ledger bolts are sleeved with PEX, vinyl tube, irrigation tube, whatever is to hand to insulate them from the wood and the HDG washers have Vycor washers between them and the wood.
The ToolBear
"I am still learning." Goya
There ae various Simpson post brackets available for this sort of thing.
Or you can drill in center of each for location and insert a length of allthread secured in epoxy or PL Premium, with a couple toenails to resit twisting.
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Great idea. Thanks.
You might like this document...
<http://www.awc.org/Publications/dca/dca6/dca6.pdf>
The ToolBear
"I am still learning." Goya
P.S. The awc.org look like a great source of info. Thanks.
I don't see any specific reason the roof supports have to be right on top of the 6x6 bottom supports, but if you want to do this, I would look in the simpson catalog (online) for a connector that supports doing this.
If you're worried about twisting - and you should be - you'll need to the tops of the roof posts integrated into the roof framing as soon as possible. I did an arbor that used 8x8 wraps around 4x4 PT posts, and one of the posts rotated (ie warped) about 20 degrees over two weeks of drying.
Thanks for the heads up. I was just concerned that I should locate the 4x4's on top of the 6x6's to ensure load bearing capacity. I'm still looking into running the 6x6's all the way to the roof.
"I don't see any specific reason the roof supports have to be right on top of the 6x6 bottom supports,"I can give two darn good reasons.one is that ti will all look much better.The other reason is more important - that it will avoid engineering costs or mistakes. Direct point load is easy. Offsetting loads causes a lot of extra work and cost
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!