Replies

1. 
   Guest_ | Jun 13, 1999 09:13am | #1

   *
   First problem is that you didn't hire me for the job. The rest would be difficult to explain in great detail but heres a shot at it. The 2x4 should be running so that it is "standing on end" as opposed to laying flat. There should be no bottom 2x4, spindles should be screwed to rim joist, top 2x4 rail should not terminate at each post, posts should be notched to let 2x4 run continuous across each post.

   Pete

1. 
   Guest_ | Jun 13, 1999 09:36am | #2

   *NailgunI always use 2x6 i on the flat( no mortising necessary)as a continuous top rail. Never cared for that edgeways detail that Pete describes. The continuous 2x6 adds necessary rigidity to the post structure and allows you to sandwich 2x2 spindles between upper and lower pieces of 1x2 or 1x3 layed i on edgeand still leave some reveals for a i layered look. . . very classy in my opinionBy "bouncy" do you mean i wobbly??A continuous top rail (use 16 footers if necessary) will take that out if your posts are well and truly bolted at the rim.-pm

1. 
   Guest_ | Jun 13, 1999 09:41am | #3

   *Obviously you've never seen one of my deck jobsPete

1. 
   Guest_ | Jun 13, 1999 10:00am | #4

   *Pete,around this neck of the woods I use a 2x4 on edge flush to the top of the 4x4 and centered on the 4x4,the bottom 2x4 is set 3 1/2" above deck surface to allow cleaning of debris that may accumulate on the deck e.g. snow,leaves,etc...the bottom 2x4 is centered on the 4x4 like the top rail,I use the Simpson fence brackets to secure the rails to the posts and speed installation, the top "cap rail" is a piece of 5/4x6 decking run across the tops of the 4x4's and 2x4's, balusters are then installed to the front face of the 2x4's under the 5/4 cap rail, the cap rail then becomes a usefull surface for setting drinks or plates on during gatherings and also serves to protect the top end grain of the balusters from the weather. As for the posts I attach them before the decking goes down sticking them down below the joists and thru-bolting from the rim joist,this system has worked well and looks good to the eye. Balusters are spaced 4-5" O.C. and each section(between posts) is less than 8" , although I sometimes install a small 2x4 block under thew bottom rail for extra support. Geoff @ Adams Construction Co. P.S. this neck of the woods is Beantown suburbs

1. 
   Guest_ | Jun 13, 1999 10:05am | #5

   *I like a gap at the bottom if only to make sweeping those leaves out easier. And everyone has them square balusters things with a 2x6 top rail ... if only to be different ... Anyway it sounds like the basic problem is the 4x4's not the rail. If the posts move everything else will too.I've been thinking about this issue -- 4x4 post to joist rigidity -- a lot. If the joist is moving, fix that with blocking. If the 4x4 is moving indpendent of the joist make sure you placed the (1/2") bolts far enough apart, add construction adhesive in the joint (may help exclude water -- heck maybe Gorilla Glue or epoxy would work better), if possible blocking up against and bolted to the post, and -- what I've been contemplating -- use a Simpson post bracket to trap the post. (The post I want to mount will have the attachment end concealad so looks aren't a problem.)The posts I mounted recently to a porch's 2x8's came out very tight even without the Simpson brackets... I figure any movement will only get worse over time, what with people leaning against or sitting on the rail. I figure ideally the wood should fail before the joinery ever will.

2. 
   Guest_ | Jun 13, 1999 10:21am | #6

   *Ok let me add more info. I use a double rim joist. the outer one raised to conceal flooring plank endgrains. I put a 5/4 x 6 board on the top of rails for a hand rail/ledge.Pete

3. 
   Guest_ | Jun 13, 1999 06:22pm | #7

   *Hi guys,No finesse! I've done the every balluster into the skirt thing, but it's too suburban looking for my taste. Also done the 2x6 flat across the top. Makes a great place to put your drinks, but still too clunky looking.I use a railing that I saw I think in FHB many years ago. It's very classical looking, but takes a good deal of time to make.I do as Pete does--I use a 2x skirt board on top of the rim joist to cover the ends of the decking and to hang down below the rim joist. Makes the deck look dressier and makes it look thicker and more substantial. If possible I lag the posts close to or right into the end of a joist through the double rim. That takes the wobble out pretty good. I try not to go any longer than about 5 feet between posts.For the railing I use a 2x4 laid flat for the top rail that I have beveled the top of so it has a 22 degree peak on it, just like a roof. The rest gets rather difficult to describe so I'll attach a couple of quick and dirty cross-section sketches. Basically I sandwich the 2x2's at the top and the botttom between some 5/4 stock that I have ripped to about 5/8" thick.I attach everything with countersunk deck screws. I use another piece of 5/4 x5/8 as a small flare at the bottom of the top rail and the bottom of the bottom rail.I use ballusters 4 inches o/c for a beefier look. The bottom is built open to drain. See sketch. I toe-nail and toe-screw these assemblies between posts leaving the whole assembly 3.5 inches off the deck and leave about 2.5 inces of post sticking above the rail sections. If needed I put a small support block under it at midspan. I cap the posts with with one of the pre-made caps you can get. I like the wood ones with the peaked cap (the copper top is nice too) with a bullnose around the edge and a cove moulding underneath.Looks very classical. Takes time. Clients with old houses love 'em, but you can't set a drink on em anywhere.Steve

4. 
   Guest_ | Jun 13, 1999 08:04pm | #8

   *Hi SteveAs some great philosopher once said (probably Dagwood)"It's a difference of opinion that makes horseracing". . . can't say your 'roof-rail' does anything for me, but maybe your sketch and my imagination don't do it justice. I do a similar assembly with the ballusters except use stock 1x (3/4") ripped to width for the rails, and don't include the gap at the top or the secondary top rail. When combined with 4x4, and the balluster assembly which = 3" the 2x6 has an overlap of 1"~1-1/2" which creates a nice shadow line. . .I round over the 2x6 and ballusters with a router. The layering gives it a "Craftsman look" which is far from "clunky" to my eyeIn Ontario we are "coded" to death on decks. Rail height 42" if 6' above grade,(nicely at eye level when sitting, another reason not to put it "edgewise") 36" if less than 6' down to 2' above grade, balluster spaces no greater than 4", post & railing attachment details etc, etc, etc.Locally the township is being sued by an American visitor whoi fell throughsomeones deck railing, while sitting on it, and was bady injured when he came to rest upon a pile of rock some distance below. Don't know how old the deck rail was (it wasn't new) but it may have been up to code at the time of construction Gotta get the scanner working, got some nice pics of a very classy looking ballustrade with 2x6 top rail.-pm

5. 
   Guest_ | Jun 13, 1999 08:41pm | #9

   *Hey Pete, How do I get one of those 6 digit IQ's.How much do they cost?L

6. 
   Guest_ | Jun 13, 1999 10:11pm | #10

   *LawrenceYa gotta apply to Mensa( joe faked it). . .they send you a book of convoluted crossword puzzles, do em all in 25 secs and your in. . . oh don't ferget to send a cheque. Check with Gary Wheeler, he'll provide all details.-pm

7. 
   Guest_ | Jun 14, 1999 12:07am | #11

   *The first step towards getting a "six digit" IQ like Pete's is to be able to count to "seven"...As far as railing strength, I like the railings to be as long as possible, spanning as many posts as possible. Upper and lower rail joints staggered. Posts lagged into the rim. Top rail is beveled and laid on the flat. The flat provides resistance to push/pull, provides good drainage, and the bevel discourages lazy fat drunken people from sitting on it or balancing their drinks on it, as well as discouraging the young ones from using it as a balance beam.The bottom rail is on edge which provides a bit more strength against sag. Most customers prefer that it be held above the platform for debris removal. If "sag" or "bounciness" is still an issue, a spacer block can be secured between the mid-span of the bottom rail and the platform.

8. 
   Guest_ | Jun 14, 1999 11:51pm | #12

   *Ok guys...now you've forced me to dust off the scanner and post a detail of my deck rail. It's a nice standard deck rail. ...and you guys know how I hate posting pics..Oh yeah, Let me clear up some details here. The top 2x4 rail is notched through the posts and runs continuous and the band joist is doubled. This is just a generic drawing I use for submittals ... I didn't have a current one handy but this should give you the picture (no pun intended).PeteView Image

9. 
   Guest_ | Jun 15, 1999 12:55am | #13

   *I wish I could do that architect-script. but even I have trouble reading my writing.Now, here's my last railing job.

10. 
    Guest_ | Jun 15, 1999 06:21am | #15

    *Style combined with strength & function:There are various ways to construct deck rails, and Pete's is about the strongest, however, I believe that a rail should be constructed to compliment the architecture of the house. Pete's method is more of a contemporary look, but would this be appropriate for a Victorian style home? Nailgun's rail detail is the more classic look, but it is more challenging build a firm rail in this manner, and as mentioned above, facilitates cleaning. The whole notion of "this is the way I build 'em" is not a good thing.Likewise for other deck construction details - run the decking boards at 45 degrees on that Victorian? Not me. 45 degree lattice skirting? To me vertical / horozontal lattice is the most classic look - too bad they don't sell it in any store around here. Round, pineapple, etc. finials on classic deck posts, angular or none on contemporary. Skirt board to cover end grain on the more contemporary, deck boards overhang the rim joist for the more classic look.Also, I don't like to use lag bolts/screws for securing posts or anywhere else unless it is absolutely necessary. Only bolts, nuts, and washers for me. Screws are good for attaching rails to posts, and nails or screws to attach balusters to rails.Tastefully,Matt

2. 
   Nailgun007_ | Jun 15, 1999 06:21am | #14

   *
   I have a problem with a deck railing that is too
   bouncy and out of line. I used 4x4 post 4' in ht.
   & between them are a top & bottom 2x4 rail with
   spindles on 5" o.c. I have 2 bolts thru each 4x4
   secured to the rim joist of the deck 2x8 material
   but the 4x4 are still bouncy. Should I secure the
   bottom section of the 2x4 rail to the deck and
   also mortise in the top rail to the 4x4 post to take out the bounce? The space between the posts
   is about 56". Any and All suggestions will be
   appreciated!!!