Long story short. BIL’s 15 yr old deck is stucturally sound, but PT lumber is looking very beat. He wants me to price railing and deck surface replacement with TimberTech system. He’s a good guy and expects me to do the work at standard rates-trouble is I have no idea what standard rates are for this type of system.
The deck is terraced, multiple steps and landings, 45 deg. cropped corners, pretty cut up. Aprox. 650 sq ft of deck, 102 ln. ft of railing, total of 17 steps and 2 landings.
I figured the job out the long way, for a total of well over $10,000.(doesnt include demo…..I had sticker shock, I wonder what he’ll have. LOL)
Figuring backwards, these are my unit costs:
About $8.50 sq. ft. for deck and stair replacement, and about $45.00 ln. ft. for the railings. To those of you who do much deck work, does this sound reasonable? Remember, it’s a deck-over, the structural stuff is already there.
Thanks, John
Replies
You know the song and dance - different pricing, different areas. That notwithstanding, Timbertech costs me roughly double what 5/4 cedar decking does. PT decks around here, at ground level or nearly (as opposed to up ten feet) are in the neighborhood of $19/sf including simple rail. I'm doing a Timbertech now with a few add ons. The base price for the deck (including the undercarraige) is in the neighborhood of $26/sf. If it helps you guesstimate time, two guys can top your 650sf in a day, easy, if it's all square. If there's a pattern to the layout, or bumpouts where you need to rip and block under cut pieces of T&G, that does slow you down considerably.
FWIW, even the "anti-mushroom" heads don't do so well on timbertech without pilots. We've been using a 7/32 pilot bit so the threads just slide through and the top holds. With the T&G decking, the only place that is a concern is rip cuts or if your pattern works you into a corner somewhere and you cant get behind it for a screw.
Also worth noting, the manufacturer specs stainless 3 1/4" for rail assembly under the theory that any staining from corrosion will be eliminated. This is legitimate. Leave the decking sit on wet grass for a day and you'll see. It will get stains. A 1500ct box of GRK's cost me about three bills. That's 20 cents a screw. Good to know before you give a price.
Beyond that, the material works well. As good as wood, if not better. Its certainly much nicer on the carbide blades than CCA. We've had great luck with leaving the ends long and trimming them with a guide under the skilsaw and a new blade. If you have to notch around anything like a bench, handsaws work great on it. I've got just a little FatMax that I usually use for cleaning up stair cuts that chews through the stuff in a hurry.
Last thought, anywhere that you might butt joints together, like a herringbone, do BOTH sides simultaneously. If you run down one side in the am and do the other in the afternoon, the expansion of the material could leave your pattern off significantly by the time you get to the end of things. You really need to watch alignment on areas like that. That one kind of snuck up on me. We ended up waiting for the next day to do the other half on one of the decks so the air temp would be cool again. It helped, but it was still a headache. Better to do them in pairs as you go.
"The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb " lyrics by Roger Waters
My figures are labor and materials. I appreciate the tips, no, I'm not installing a herringbone pattern. I'm planning for as few butt seams as possible, but some runs are 24 ft long, so I can't avoid them entirely. With lumber I usually butt with a 30 degree angle, should I do that with the Timbertech as well?
Stainless sounds good, I use it for cedar fencing, redwood & cedar siding, it's pricey, but well worth it.
So the trapease fasteners aren't what they're cracked up to be? I wondered about that. I haven't talked with anyone around here who has actually installed timbertech, I appreciate any input from anyone here who has.John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)
I've used the powder coated composite deck screws with Trex and liked the results. They have a dual pitched thread that reduces mushrooming, but I still had to pre-drill. Look at this pic for similar, http://store3.yimg.com/I/squaredrive_1765_34778406 only the ones I used had more of a bugle head and had ACR (anti-cam) type Phillips heads.
Some say use SS trim head screws and smack the resulting mushroom down with a smooth faced hammer, but I don't like the results....
Matt
PS: Here is a piece of trivia I just ran across that will only interest the type of people who hang around here:
http://lists.samurai.com/pipermail/trawler-world-list/2001-January/027637.html
It talks about the origins of the Phillips screw head, square drive and ACR type screws.
Smacking down mushrooms doesn't sound good to me, guess I'll ignore the hype on no need for pilot holes, and drill anyway.
Interesting history on the phillips head and square drive BTW....
John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)
John, which timbertech product are you thinking about? The tongue and groove stuff gets blind screwed at the tongue, no screw showing.
I did one deck in it a few years ago, lemme know if my minimal knowledge can be of help.
How's things otherwise? Plan on coming this way in the near future?Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Hi Calvin,
I'm using the 5/4. There isn't enough clearance under an outswing door to use the 1 1/2". As I stated in my opening, I'm mostly concerned about giving my BIL fair pricing for my labor (as well as myself). I would prefer to go T&M, but he would like a bid so the price is firm.
What kind of railing did you install? I'm pricing out the classic railing, which is beautiful, but really quite expensive.
I don't know when I'll be up your way next, if I get a break in the action, maybe I'll have to head up there just to kibitz you on a job and have some lunch together.
John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)
Well john, the only timbertech i installed was the T&G . That deck was actually a screened porch with half wall. The others I have done recently have had a powder coated (modern) aluminum flat stock design, a horizontal conduit, and a semi traditional cedar baluster, laid pretty tite. Not doing decks constantly I use the sit down and build it on paper method of figuring. The materials are a given, the labor is the imaginary number till you actually do it. But I don't need to tell you that.
I would give the fastenmaster screws a try. I liked them on a trex and boardwalk deck. I let them show and their minimal head counter sunk nice with a nose adjusted depth gauge on the screw gun. Tried the bury it and bash method b/4 starting, the homowner decided they didn't like the look.
The material is heavy, flops around, and is slippery to handle. There are guidelines on gap and end butt clearance according to the temp installed. I'm sorry I can't be of more help, but you know the bane of the remodeler.
You come up, we drink. Give me a call.
You are the real john svenson right?Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Figure the material costs of the job - every bit of it. Multiply by 2.5. That will be a fare price IMHO. That stuff is expensive and more time consuming to install than wood, so the materials expense put through a multiplier gives you some extra $ to cover your extra time for screwing it down, etc. Only problem, I can't really see how cut up it is unless I have a plan or picture of the exiting deck to see if that would really cover it.
Some people will say this costing approach is too simple, so go ahead and flame me.
Now you have to suffer through the opinions that come with the free info: I think it would be unwise to replace the decking and rails and not the structural members. Once you start ripping the decking off, I bet you see some joists with deteriation. So, why install 50 year decking on a 10 year undercarriage. CCA of that age is probably only treated to .25 so won't last as well as the stuff commonly installed today (normally .40 or better). Poke it with a screw driver or ice pick to find out how stable it really is. Take close look at any joist hangers and any other hardware too. Are the footers really to code, or are they just 4x8x16" solid blocks buried or some some similar shortcut. What about the attachment to the house - is it to current code, and is the flashing in good condition? I just installed a patio door on someone's house where the house floor framing was rotted due to the fact that the deck aluminum flashing was badly corroded (they won't let us use that around here any more). The rot replacement labor was as much as the door install.
To control costs, there are some pretty decent looking ways of combining wood and composites to build the rails. Look around the Photo Gallery folder here at BT for some pictures and ideas.
Also, around here, the CCA stuff is still going strong, and if that is the case in your area, I'd get the stuff ASAP before the change over to the rust producing stuff.
BTW: when you stated your figures ("for a total of well over $10,000") you didn't say if that was materials and labor or what. I guess I could figure it out if I was sit down and run some figures, but then I'd have to charge ya...
Edited 10/31/2003 7:29:30 PM ET by DIRISHINME