Replies

1. 
   Piffin | Jan 21, 2007 06:12pm | #1

   As long as you are using PT instead of decent lumber, youhave a no-win situation. Theoreticly you are right, but then you get knife edge hewart slices coming losse, standing out and slicing toes.

    

    

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   Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
    where ...
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1. 
   ScottMatson | Jan 21, 2007 07:31pm | #2

   hewart slices?is that like what Mike Smith yells when he's golfing?

1. 
   Piffin | Jan 21, 2007 07:44pm | #3

   LOL,
   Heart slices, when the heart checks out like a spoon from center 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   McDesign | Jan 21, 2007 08:18pm | #4

   <Heart slices, when the heart checks out like a spoon from center>

   Just beautiful word-smithing -

   I'm thinking a sad country song, or at least a Charles Bukowski poem.

    

   Forrest - had my heart check out once like a transient in a cheap motel

1. 
   ScottMatson | Jan 21, 2007 08:33pm | #5

   From the hit country song, "Center Punch"My Heart checked out with a spoon
   In the center I punched that goon...

2. 
   BillHartmann | Jan 21, 2007 08:54pm | #6

   I have heard it called Shelling..
   .
   A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

2. 
   BillHartmann | Jan 21, 2007 08:56pm | #7

   The moisture level on the surfaces of a deck are far from being equal. Thus rules of thumb based on which way the surface move are meaningless.

   If you look at places like the US Forest Products Lab they say "best side" up. And where they are similar the heart side down, becasue of shelling.

   .
   .
   A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
3. 
   Matt | Jan 21, 2007 09:52pm | #8

   A number of years ago I had literature from a big SYP (Southern Yellow Pine) PT producer that said "bark side up".  I have found that that doesn't necessarily work.  The thing is that whatever side is up is the one that is gonna dry the fastest and shrink the most simply by virtue of the fact that it is exposed to the sun.

   Anyway, a number of years ago I had a seasoned carpenter tell me to put your speed square across the board surface, and whatever side has a cup in it, chances are, it will continue to cup in that direction, so lay the cup down.  On the other hand, since we all want to build good looking projects, "best side up" is another approach. 

   I combine the 2 approaches and generally put the cupped side down, however if there is a very slight cup and the other side looks nasty, I might put the slight cup up, keeping in mind the way the wood dries.  Further, if there is no cup, I just put the best side up.   Fastening it well helps too.  Ring or screw shank nails or screws help with this.

   As far as someone's comment about PT wood being junk, last weekend my wife drug me to look at some new houses up the street - one 700k and the other 800k.  I was a little surprised (but definitely not shocked) that they had used regular old PT lumber for the large front covered porches.  These homes were maybe 4000 heated sq ft on 1 acre lots.  I guess the good stuff is reserved these days for the million$ plus homes.

   The thing about PT decking and railings is that contrary to what many people think, you can't leave the stuff exposed raw to the elements indefinitely - at least not where I live - it needs some kind of penetrating finish to keep the wood from checking and weathering badly.  If you do that it lasts fine.  Therefore, personally I feel that PT lumber is acceptable for those who can't afford exotics or composites.  For those who advocate installing those high end materials on a $130k house, well, yea, and I guess it makes sense to get a $2800 custom paint job on a ford escort too... if you like the car :-).  For the record, I understand that IPE needs to be oiled periodically too, and there are sometimes mildew concerns with composites.

   BTW - as far as I know, most all PT lumber available east of the Mississippi is SYP.  As far as I'm concerned, other PT woods available elsewhere are closer to junk, since most all do not absorb the pressure treating chemicals nearly as well as SYP, hence the fact that often time this other wood will be "incised" which still just results in mostly a surface treating.   Then you get into needing to do significant on-site end cut treating, etc.  Incised is when the wood surface is covered with all those little knife cuts.  Further, because of the incised look, most people wouldn't hardly think of using it in a visually exposed location.

1. 
   bigal4102 | Jan 22, 2007 02:14am | #9

   We used PT for our deck, because we like wood, not plastic.And even if I drove 50 miles to the nearest Lowe's and said eepay (ipe) please...you knwo I would get that dumb stare....

1. 
   Piffin | Jan 22, 2007 02:44am | #10

   big boxes specialize in dumb stares 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   Matt | Jan 22, 2007 03:09am | #11

   That's funny.  I always get the guy who says something like "they don't sell that in this country", or maybe, "that's over on the paint isle".  :-)

1. 
   edwardh1 | Jan 22, 2007 04:47am | #13

   wife and I were in Orland about 10 years ago ordered grapefruit - they did not have any - waitress said "its not in season now" -I thought- odd -it is in season in South carolina

2. 
   MikeSmith | Jan 22, 2007 04:16am | #12

   matt.... initial cost  on PT ..you're right

   but for life cycle costing... just buying & applying a good finish will move the total cost very close to the composites

   also.. the total life of the SYP deck is finite.... say 15 years typically

   the composite will still be there

   if the goal is to reduce the initial cost  of a first entry home... ok

   but for replacement, by people intending to stay in the house.. no way would i uuse  SYP

   i'd use  Meranti'  or Alaskan Cedar.....  or... TrexMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

1. 
   Matt | Jan 22, 2007 05:53am | #14

   >> also.. the total life of the SYP deck is finite.... say 15 years typically <<

   True - if it is not cared for.  For example, the SYP on my small deck and back screen porch is 7 years old and looks pretty similar to the day I installed it.  The deck has been stained twice and the porch once.  I'll give it 30 years - at least.  I think composites are great and require little care other than cleaning, but back when I was building decks I was able to find like 1 customer in 10 that wanted to pay the money for it - and I pused the stuff.  I was a certified Trex installer (or whatever they called it) and did a number of them.  Back then we were still useing CCA and I always iinstalled the .40 PT stuff - not the big box cr@p.  My yard also had the #1 stuff which I also pushed.

1. 
   WINSTALL | Jan 22, 2007 05:24pm | #15

   Anyone ever use Kiln Dried After Treatment? K.D.A.T. That is all we sell @ my LY. What you see is what you get for the most part. Still some cupping issues.... we reco growth rings up like a rainbow... Much less shrinkage and movement over the wet stuff.

1. 
   McDesign | Jan 22, 2007 08:02pm | #16

   I've heard of KDAT, but never seen any.  What wood species is it?  Is it pricey?

   Forrest

2. 
   MikeSmith | Jan 22, 2007 08:47pm | #17

   it's the same species as the rest of the PT lumbers and it's prone to the same problems of checking and splitting and splinters

   it is more stable in terms of twisting and warping

    Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

3. 
   WINSTALL | Jan 23, 2007 03:24pm | #21

   Southern Yellow Pine.... Just like the other stuff, only re-dried after the treatment. I like it. My yard sells only dry treated, we have some wet stuff the builders use for plate material. You can paint, seal, and any other treatment you might think of immediately. The cost on the front end is about 15% higher than wet. Worth it IMO,

4. 
   Matt | Jan 23, 2007 02:57am | #20

   Yes - I use KDAT especially for porch railings that will be painted.  The fact that it is  dryer (obviously) and more stable makes Paint sticks better.  Very little movement after install.  The down side is that since the boards are re-dried, they are not at all flexible and I believe there is a little more occurrence of twists, bows, and warps so, at that price, it's best to cull the boards at the store.  We have a speciality lumber yard that sells it and stores it inside.  My regular yard recently started selling it too, but they store it outside, and not necessarily covered very well.

2. 
   CAGIV | Jan 23, 2007 05:56pm | #22

   What is Meranti?

    

1. 
   MikeSmith | Jan 23, 2007 08:36pm | #23

   merante'... or meranti'.... i have no idea what it really is

   that's it's marketing name around here

   it is some kind  of tropical semi-hardwood that looks like mahognay

   it can run the gamut from soft like redwood to rather hard and dense .. almost as hard & dense as oak.. it is decay resistant.. and fairly cheap

   good looking material especially in say a 5/4 x 4.. but we use it mostly in 5/4 x 6Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

1. 
   CAGIV | Jan 23, 2007 08:59pm | #24

   How does the cost compare to IPE?

   We have a couple of substitute woods for IPE around here that are a slight cost savings.  From what I've been told by my "wood guy" who is pretty darn knowledgable about wood in general they have all the same properties as IPE simply cost a hair less. 

2. 
   MikeSmith | Jan 24, 2007 01:45am | #25

   about 1/3 the cost of Ipe'....

   we used it on the decks in "Adverse Conditions"

   View Image

   you can see some more  around  #1581

    Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

3. 
   CAGIV | Jan 24, 2007 05:13pm | #26

   Thanks

4. 
   user-121922 | Jan 23, 2007 01:24am | #18

   IMO, if you go the PT route, the best face out for the visible show items. I've built 100s of decks and PT lumber moves in unpredictable ways. If you decide to seal/stain(highly recommended), semitransparents are the way to go. Solid stains never stand up to the foot trafic. This however becomes the yearly project that the home owner will never keep up.

   Still IMO, you are far better off going with products like TREX, Timber Tech, and IPE.

   Of all the decks I've built, I have never received a return call for the decks covered with either of the three products I've mentioned. PT decks are maintenance head aches and will leave a bad taste in your customers mouth.

5. 
   gb93433 | Jan 23, 2007 02:46am | #19

   The wood will expand and contract the most on the outside of the tree. If the wood is dried to six percent and the air will give it 11 percent then put the outside of the tree. If the wood were above 11 percent then put the outside of the tree down.

   How you place the wood will depend on the moisture content it will achieve once it has been installed and where it starts at.

   Wood that has been dried well would usually pick up moisture and then you would place the bark side out.

6. 
   karp | Jan 24, 2007 05:49pm | #27

   I've had so much grief over this! You can't win! Put the boards bark up or down and they still cup the wrong way. I have given up, now I just put the pretty side up.