An HO has requested an exterior deck and thinks he wants composite.
My experience with composite is limited to some I have seen that are older and starting to look bad.
www.choicedek.com / www.trex.com
See review and challange to composite deck manufacturers at www.gardenstructure.com/page/composite%5Fdecking.html
My inclination is to use a 5/4″ thickness Thompson www.wolmanizedwood.com/thompson.shtml
or NO 1 Select / TR SYP / 2 x 6 Radius Edge
What do you guys think?
Replies
Personaly I'm a big fan of IPE.
I've built a lot of decks and my favorite decking is cedar. It looks great when you leave but in a year it looks bad and the client forgot that you told them it needed refinishing every year.
I've built 7 decks now with trex and they have worked out fine. The clients like them.
I love Ipe but there is a good chance it is coming from the Amazon rainforest. I've been to the denuded part of the former rainforest and it is depressing.
I was(am) a "Trex Pro" installer and can tell you they have had some issues with mold. If you go that route, use one of their darker colored products of less worries. I love the look of the woodgrain stuff.
A few years ago while visiting Yellowstone I saw probably 100s of thousands of square feet of composite decking (I think it was Trex) that was exposed to extremely high foot traffic and was doing fine.
Personally I find the look of ChoiceDeck (they sell it a Lowes around here) not that desirable.
I think the Thompson's Weatherseal lumber (or whatever they call it) is just advertising hype.
Re GardenStructures.com, Larry (I think is his name) is/was a regular around here at BT. He has some very nice (beautiful) designs and does superior work, but seems to be caught up in a stigma against other than natural lumber products. Sure I can find examples of where it didn't work out when used incorrectly. I say build for the new millennium and that 'plastic' is good when used in the right situations. People today want long lasting very low maintenance products not paint-maintenance nightmares.
Another of our esteemed BT members (seriously speaking) about a year or more ago showed us a pic of the floor of a playground structure made of composite lumber that had failed and sagged miserably. Upon close inspection of the photo you could see that floor boards were supported by joists on (very) roughly 36" centers! Duh!!!!
Edited 12/27/2005 7:18 am ET by Matt
Mold is easily cleaned from Trex. Just add some bleach to some water and it will be killed on contact. If it is difficult to scrub just powerwash it. Mold doesn't eat or harm the material, it is just feeding off the organic matter that is on the material. Space the deckboards at least 5/16 ths and then the organic material has a better chance of washing away.
I've put down the old style Trex (no woodgrain), TimberTech (T & G with I-beam type cross section), and now EverGrain. EverGrain is the winner so far among composites. Very realistic wood grain.
I'd be leary of composites if you're in one of the hot, humid parts of Texas. In the last 90's, Trex actually pulled their product from the southern markets because the boards would sag between the joists in the excessive heat/humidity. Most of them aren't exactly comfortable to walk on when they get hot either. I'd stick with a wood, such as Ipe, cedar, or redwood.
Bob
The air is so think with humidity down here in the Summer, that when we build and stand a wall, we don't need the usual temporary bracing.
Seriously, a vendor told me today about the sag problem Bob mentions with Trex. They no longer handle Trex, and promote TimberTech. Several years ago I saw some Trex that was about 3 years old and looked like painted particle board. It was splitting, cupping and generaly looked very bad. The vendor told me that most of his previous complaints about Trex happened after about 3 years.
It gets real hot here in the Summer, but I love it. Today it is 80, but is suppose to drop down to 70 tommorrow..... Brrrrr.
Wow, the composites are very expensive.
Composites
ChoiceDek / 16' / $37.37 Timber Tech / 16' / $33.28
http://www.choicedek.com http://www.timbertech.com
Wood
2 x 6 x 16' NO 1 TR YP / $12.64 2 x 6 x 16' NO 1 / Select / Ultra Wood / $11.67
The Ultra Wood is also called Weathershield. It is kiln dried, ACQ treated and redried after treatement. It can be ordered with radius edges and is highly recommended by two deck builders I know.
http://www.osmose.com/wood/usa/preserved/weathershield
The Weathersheild product you mention must be different than what I have seen and used from Lowes which appeared to be just PT lumber with a treating of Thompsons.
When I'm doing a project that requires a better than average result with wood, I use KDAT (Kiln Dried After Treating) or as you call it redried. For me, a major plus is that it takes paint much better, so this is what I use for some front porch railings, etc where wood is the right look. Some years ago, we always used to use fir, but it's just like a ticking time bomb once some rain water leaks under the paint. Another advantage to KDAT is that there is much less shrinkage than with regular PT. I have it on my own screened porch which is about 5 years old and is stained - very happy with it. I don't necessarily think KDAT is any better than regular SYP PT if it is not at least protected by a stain though.
KDAT.....very professional. Redried is the term I heard today from our vendor.
KDAT, I can think of several occasions where paint was involved and I should have specified KDAT.
Thanks Matt
I vote for ipe also.Its good looking,and dosent need a finish (if you dont mind letting it silver.)I personally think keeping a finish on ipe may be fighting nature a bit much
Ive built a few beautiful decks with the stuff. Its better structurally than composites ,it costs about the same as 2x trex, and its wood!
I recomend using the ss trim head screw through the face of the decking rather than the concealed fastener approach.The latter adds alot of time for minimum benefit in my opinion. Ipe is very stable and dosent even need to be fastened at every joist, if you use poly glue. On my next one Ill probably use poly glue and one screw per joist on alternating sides.
mike
Ipe` has earned my respect
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I'm finding that Ipe that has a high sun exposure can't seem to hold a tinted finish more than a year. It looks like a piece of furniture when it's just finished, but it seems like the incredible hardness (3 times harder than oak!) prevents a penetrating sealer from penetrating very far into the grain. As the finish is burned off by the sun, it wants to grey out like teak or redwood or fir.
I'll continue to use it on more protected decks, but I will tell clients to expect to refinish it every year if they want to use it in a highly exposed situation.
Advocate
Edited 12/28/2005 1:00 am ET by Advocate
True, but it depends on the appearance they want.
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Thanks Piffin.
Nice pics. I will look into it, but it does not seem to be common here in TX.
be first on the block!resists rot naturally
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So what are other people finding availble as far as lengths for Ipe. Getting a batch of 16's seems to be difficult. One supplier I was in touch with said it would be random length with lots of 16s and Bear Creek lumber wanted to charge me some goofy "long length specified" charge to even get 12's. What's the norm in your area?
OK, I do not know it all. What is ipe?
Iron wood --- iron bark here is a good explanation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipe
Edit ---- for longevity well it was on ww2 submarine decks & it's still there today if that's long enough for ya
Edited 12/27/2005 10:53 pm ET by plumbbill
Tx,Another vote for ipe (rhymes with ebay). I prefer exposed stainless steel screws to the hidden fastener systems. Exposed screws make future maintenance a breeze. An ipe deck is a lifetime investment if done correctly. My own ipe deck was done in 1999 in SoCal coastal, never had any finish. It is silvery and smooth.If you use screws, be sure your clearance hole through the ipe is bigger than the major diameter of your threads. For #10 screws you'll need a 3/16" hole. If the threads engage, the ipe will win the struggle with the joist, or the screw will break trying to pull it down. Like the others said, the stuff is extremely dense and strong.One more thing. I went 24" oc with 3/4" decking. It is like a rock. I saw a restaurant balcony in the Carribean that was decked with 2x6's of some super hardwood over 4x joists at 48" oc and it was solid to walk on.Bill
but it does not seem to be common here in TX.
I've seen the big boxes' circulars claim to have it, but it's never on the online inventory.
You might have to check with some of the east Texas suppliers--I want to remember there's a vendor out of Tyler that can deliver Ipè to spec.
Ok, Googled and found these guys: http://www.austinwholesaledecking.com/ipe.htm
And these folk in Dallas: http://www.jordanredwood.com/tropical.html
Probably a few too many brother's sister's cousin's nephew's neighbour's boy's deck jobs with paint on PT from the closest lumber place being "as good as" a properly installed, well-crafted, deck of distinction and quality just yet to see Ipè and the like as 'common.'
Does not mean they are not out there, they are. I installed an outdoor lighting package in an arroyo just off the Colorado in Travis county where the deck was all Teak. Owners were fans of all things Maritime, too, so it had a nice nautical flair without being ostentatious.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Does anyone know a brand or supplier of ipe that is environmentaly sound?
Look for something that is FSC (Forest Stewardship Council) certified.
Advocate
I’ll second the motion for Ipe on the deck. It’s expensive (about $7.00 CDN/ sq ft.) But if you lay out that kind of coin for the deck, pony up some extra $ and get the concealed fasteners, which work with the 5/4 edge grooved Ipe, and produce a striking end result. I used a biscuit Jointer to cut a groove at every joist, cause it was cheaper than the pre-grooved Ipe, and I had more time than $. It’s labour intensive, and eats up the edges on your tools quickly, but the end result has made it worth while. It’s a good idea to recruit a young buck to lug the stuff around as it’s as heavy as all get out. Because Ipe is renewable, I guess it’s still a more environmentally responsible choice than synthetic deckling which in my view is suitable only for a vinyl clad house.
“The hurrieder I go, the behinder Iget”
They do sell ipe around here, but when I was building decks, I was never able to sell one because of the cost. If I remember correctly, labor included, I think I was figuring on roughly $25 a square foot for an ipe deck - turn key. I do think it gives a beautiful, unequaled look though, and to me, would be ideal for a screened porch as it would not have to be re-sealed quite as often. This is where I've seen it used on $800k + homes, and I think it's cost makes it appropriate for those price range of houses.
One thing though... re >> Because Ipe is renewable, I guess it’s still a more environmentally responsible choice than synthetic deckling... << In the above post 67550.3 McCarthy says >> I love Ipe but there is a good chance it is coming from the Amazon rainforest. I've been to the denuded part of the former rainforest and it is depressing.<< To that I'd like to add that as I understand it the deforestation of these South American areas is actually having a significant negative impact on the air quality world wide! This is an environmental problem that is here and now. Maybe there are some varieties or sources of ipe that this is not true of...
Don't get me wrong... I'm no tree hugger by any means, but let's not try to polish a turd of a situation.
Edited 12/28/2005 7:00 am ET by Matt
RE sustainable and enviromentally friendly.Since Ipe` is ironwood -= so hard that it couldn't be milled until modern milling machinery advaces suc as carbide tipped blades made it possible, this is the wood that was tyically destroyed in the old slash and burn agriculture. The currently developed harvesting milling and export process supports far more people in commercial enterprise, earning money to buy food than were formerly supporting themselves in agrarian enterprise. Whether more trees are harvesyted now than were formerly burned is not something I know, but using product in decks is far more enviro-friendly than burning it on the forest floor. Most of what is imported to this country comes from certified locations, meaning in part, that new trees are planted to replace those harvested.
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Are you using 5/4 or 3/4 ipe? 3/4 x5 1/2" here is 2.19 lin', 5/4 is 2.95, ouch<G> Hey, pocket doors can't come off the track if they're nailed open
used to be 1.20 for 1x4 but I think up around 2/lf lately
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Matt, who are you getting the KDAT from? Didn't you tell me the place in Morrisville went out of biz? Hey, happy new year<G> Hey, pocket doors can't come off the track if they're nailed open
The place in Morrisville (Tarheel Lumber) is still in business however I get the KDAT stuff from Brooks lumber which is about 1 mile north of the Raleigh beltline near Capitol Blvd. Very nice folks to deal with - they specilize in premium decking products including composites and exotic woods and exterior finishes like fiber cement and Azek. A few unusual things they have are a few profiles of PT molding and PT 1x4 & 2x6 T&G which I think is KDAT. They also have KDAT PT laminated posts up to 8x8 (I think) which are very pricey but really nice for screened porches and the like.
Thanks, I'll give them a call. Hey, pocket doors can't come off the track if they're nailed open
I've installed 5 or 6 Weatherbest decks in the past couple years and it has grown to be my favorite synthetic decking choice. In fact this fall I installed it in the pacific cedar color on our 42' x 8' front porch and also did our 24' x 12' back deck in the driftwood grey color.
I like the look of it a lot. It's has a decent looking woodgrain and is actually two-tone shaded around the graining. Personally, I like the look of exposed fasteners. We used the color matched TrapEaze screws which zip in nicely.
It's made by LP and I believe it's worth a look if you're comparing decking choices
http://www.lpcorp.com/lpweatherbestdeckingandrailing/products/premiumgrain.aspx
Here's a couple pics of the front and back decks at my house if you're curious. They're not very close up but you can get the idea. The close-up pictures on their website are very good renderings of the actual product.
Thanks for the link. I am meeting with the client on Monday regarding this issue.
The link provided info that one of my specialty product vendors is a dealer.
Which one is you in the profile pic?
On the left in the blue sweatshirt and oxy tool bags.View Image
Or there is one step down from Ipe....plantation mahogony. Softer, cheaper, but still naturally weather resistant. And good looking, to my eye. (Not a fan of plastics in this situation)
I did the hidden fastener thing too, great look, lots of work. Stainless fasteners are a must regardless.
Here's one:
Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Sometime this year FHB did an large article on composite decking. Check it out.
I decided to check out a little further about Ipe. My wife is an agronomist and Brazilian and her brother is a forester who was recently the director of Tijuca National Park and is now involved in reforesting an area that that is being reclaimed from a mining company.
They say that Ipe takes 25 to 30 years to grow to maturity. The trees that are being cut down for export to the US and Europe are virgin but are cut selectively from a designated forest. For example a few trees will be cut from an area one year and a few trees from the same area the next year. And they are replanting as they cut. Right now the wood is certified.
They gave a thumbs up to Ipe that is certified but make sure it has the seal. I'll keep an eye on any articles regarding this situation
If anybody is interested in wood that is definitely sustainable and is cut from plantation trees in Brazil check out www. lyptus.com.br. The wood is used for cabinetmaking down here but I've seen it in the states used for trim.
Edited 1/1/2006 6:21 am ET by McCarty12
my two cents on EB-tye fasteners (concealed plastic fasteners with a stainless steel trim head screw driven at 45 degrees through the fastener and through a biscuit joiner curf in the board edge. these fasteners are very labor intensive to use. about one hour to put down a 16 foot board. I put down a mahagony deck with these... spaced and done according to directions of EB-TYE and the deck buckled and warped. A folder from the lumberyard that I read later on Mahagony said not to use concealed fasteners.. AND the mahagony is very dry and it it expands when exposed to weather so it needs alot of space between boards. When I repladed and put the boards back down I used exposed headcoat screws with gray heads and good spacing between boards. And they painted the thing gray! Spaces. exposed fasteners. good ventialtion under the deck... my recommendationsl
I ditto the Poet's remarks on Eb-Ty--Below is a copy of a post I sent to the Editors corner concerning hidden fasteners. As far as an IPE finish, the aged silver patina on IPE is great looking- but compared to the deep rubbed furniture look you get when you refinish the material, everything else feels like your settling for second place. I live in south Louisiana and have tried numerous products--Penofin ( Marine,PT and hardwood) ,Olyimpic and still get less than a year of protection-- Oh well the Katrina patina ain't so bad.
I used Eb-TY and tiger Claw on an 800sf ipe deck. Tiger claw was by far the superior product. An 1/8" saw blade kerf was too small to accept the plastic biscuits, so a 3/16" dado or biscuit jointer was required at every fastening location ie. every joist. Even small warps and deflections in the wood--1/4" over 10' span-- were hard to compensate for with the plastic biscuits- too much flex and the biscuit pulled through the screws on some heavily warped boards. The Tiger claw, while a little bit more expensive provided a more secure fastening point with 100% less prep, especially for boards that were less than perfect. As far as working with Trex or synthetic decking I could see where over driving might become a problem. While the tiger claw fasteners are different for synthetic, PT or hardwood, the stops on the fastener may not be adequate for the soft synthetic material, an additional homemade spacer should resolve any problem.
I also decked a wharf with 4" x 4' ipe boards and used a homemade hidden fastening system. I cut an 1/8" kerf on both sides of the board, then used #10 SS Fender washers inserted in the kerf with a #8 PT screw between the boards. Worked good but labor intensive.
Boats, did you have to kerf the ipe for those Tiger Claws?
Nope! They have sharp prongs on them that attach to the adjoining board using a supplied plastic block/installer. Just 1 good lick with a maul. They have 3 types of fasteners...... 1 for hardwood (Ipe) another for PT and 1 for synthetic decks. Free samples from web site.
http://www.deckfastener.com/
I also decked a wharf with 4" x 4' ipe boards and used a homemade hidden fastening system. I cut an 1/8" kerf on both sides of the board, then used #10 SS Fender washers inserted in the kerf with a #8 PT screw between the boards. Worked good but labor intensive.
& Just where did you come up with that idea?
They painted a mahogany deck gray?!?!?Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
And I thought I lived down south, til I read your profile.
Thanks for the input.
There are too many previous replies for me to have read them all. I'll offer an approach in a different direction. How about a patio in place of a deck? I don't know the height for your job, but if it is close to ground level a patio can be much more durable than any deck and has a more timeless look.
The clients have plenty of patio around their pool and summer kitchen. They want a clearly defined and differenet space to compliment the patio, and are clearly set on a deck.
Ground level at one end and 14" above ground at the other end 28' away....that is about as much "hill" as you get here in south Texas.
Does anyone manufacture ipe or redried accesories for making railings? I have about 150' of railing to do and would love to find a "wood" that would hold up and accept a semi-transparent stain without peeling/flaking. I need top rail, spindles and bottom rail. Any ideas? Thanks for the help.
Mike L.
Ohio
Where I buy my IPE & other hardwoods.
Is Crosscut Hardwoods in Seattle wa
They are a subsidary of another company I can't remember the name, but anyways----- they sell IPE railings about 5 or 6" wide radius cut across the top , I know they don't make it & they get it from somewhere.
4100 1st Avenue South, Seattle, WA 98134phone: (206) 623-0334
Wow I actually found a link to the produts http://www.emersonhardwood.com/cchw/product.asp?cID=7621565456014
They probably get it from Advantage Lumber, who now sells under the http://www.IpeDepot.com site.Jason
Composite decks hold heat and I found they are not comfortable with bare feet.
George
I agree that some composite decks hold heat and may be uncomfortable, but many of the brands and colors do not. That statement sounded like typical jobsite mis-information.
View Image
I have been in my hometown of Memphis for the past week, and did not get into Breaktime.
Thanks to all of you for your input. You guys truly go the extra mile.
I hope it is not becasue you guy like shooting the bull instead of working. Just kidding, but really....who doesn't?
Seriously, thanks. I iz mo betta edjewkated.