Replies

1. 
   junkhound | Mar 16, 2007 12:02am | #1

   Took a look at the site as have a lot of experience with fogged dual pane windows.

   Save your money for replacement panes.

   Take especial note of this phrase in their literature which is true:

   ACT NOW and call 1-888-xxxx BEFORE moisture becomes a permanent adherent to the glass and progressively leaves deposits that can permanently scar and corrode the glass -- I'll bet there is some fine print somewhere that makes sure any money back guarantee does not apply to the normal case of etched glass.  

   My experience (have take apart MANY 'sealed' units in attempt to repair) is that unless you are dealing with a door or other unit that has tempered glass, by the time you see "fog" the glass is permanently ETCHED inside. The best I have found as to the root cause of the etching over the years is that is is an enzyme/biological reaction. The etching is permanent unless the glass is re-poished, even too much work for me. I have found that the tempered glass does not etch as readily and often is repairable - my repair is to dis-assemble the glass sandwich, clean, and reassemble and seal with butyl and silicone.

   You do not have to replace the entire window. 

   What I have done on own house is to remove the old insulated glass and replace with single pane glazed  in (for glazing I use epdm rubber seal)and fabricate an old-fashioned sealed 'storm'  window that mounts INSIDE the house, also with epdm seals. Have some of these 10 years old without fogging, easy to take down and clean when any fogging noticed.

   Conversly, you can have a glss shop fabricate just the pane assembly needed, nowhere near the price of new windows if you DIY the changeout. (heat gun, linoleum knife, etc to remove the old one, etc. e-mail me or post with technique request if you are interested in DIY replacement)

   BTW, see it is just your 4th post, welcome.

1. 
   junkhound | Mar 16, 2007 03:47am | #2

   Bump,

   Wanna hear if anyone else has heard of the outfit in question and their comments?

    

1. 
   Kaya | Mar 16, 2007 08:45pm | #3

   Yes, I do. I know what they say on their website, but that's not the same as what an actual customer has to say, and that's what I'm interested in.Thanks.

1. 
   oberon476 | Mar 17, 2007 02:48am | #4

   A few thoughts:<!----><!----><!---->

   First, you have condensation between the lites because of a breach in the seal that separates the two lites.  This breach has allowed moisture between the lites.  In the right weather conditions, you have condensation.<!----><!---->

   Second, your dual pane window was manufactured with a desiccant in the spacer that keeps the two lites apart.  Depending on who made the IGU (dual pane - Insulating Glass Unit) and how it was made would depend on how much desiccant is present.  Ultimately, the seal breach has allowed enough moisture between the lites to saturate the desiccant so that it is no longer effective as a drying agent.  As long as the desiccant is able to hold enough moisture to keep the dew point of the air in the space above the temperature of the glass, you won't have a condensation problem.  But, unfortunately, your window is apparently past that point.<!----><!---->

   The folks who offer to "de-fog" your windows have an interesting gimmick.  They drill holes in the glass, suck out the excess moisture, "clean" the glass and then apply an anti-fog solution between the lites.  Personally, I would love to see how they clean the area between the lites in a window the size of yours using little wands that fit thru the small holes that they drill in the glass.  Imagine trying to clean the surface of your window with a Q-tip on the end of a springy 5 or 6 foot rod?  That is what they are suggesting that they will do for you, and they are suggesting that they can reach all over the inside surface of the glass with that set up...as I said – something I would love to watch being done.<!----><!---->

   Also, what do they propose doing about the seal breach?  Remember that that was the original cause of the problem in the first place.  What they propose to do about that is....nothing at all because there is nothing that they can do about it.  No matter what they do to your window, the original cause of the problem remains unchanged.<!----><!---->

   Ultimately, from an energy standpoint, the fact that your window has interior condensation does not affect the performance of the unit.  If they drill holes in the window, it has very little effect the energy performance either - unless the window has a LowE coating or if it was originally filled with argon (or some other) gas.  In those cases,  a seal breach will affect the performance of the unit because it would have allowed the gas to escape (if it was there in the first place) and if you have moisture between the lites, the LowE coating will eventually corrode because of it.<!----><!---->

   And, as already pointed out, if the moisture has caused etching on the interior glass surface (and that can happen) then the “fog-out” folks won’t be able to do a thing about that.<!----><!---->

   Here’s a suggestion – next time you see the condensation, use a portable hair dryer to warm up the glass where you see the moisture.  Depending on the severity of the problem you might be quite pleased with the results and at a cost a heck of a lot less than $300 for a band-aid solution.<!----><!---->

   <!----> <!---->

1. 
   Kaya | Mar 17, 2007 06:00am | #5

   I share your skepticism about the process - it's one of those things that sounds too good to be true, and you know what they say about that.Here are the details about this unit: it's 33" by 88" with a raked head. The outboard lite is 6 mm laminated, the inboard is 5 mm tempered (it's a stairwell unit, & our code requires tempered, the lami is to cut out UV). The outboard lite has had 1/4" wide lead tape applied to the inside and outside surfaces in a grid pattern - makes it look like leaded glass. Sort of. (By the way, this is a customer's window, not mine.)To replace this unit is probably going to cost about a grand in labour & materials, even if our supplier honours the warranty (which I'm sure they will - it's only a year old). He'll provide us with a new unit, but the re & re will be up to us. That's why I'm interested in getting feedback on the whole de-fogging process. I actually talked to the guy who has the franchise for our area this afternoon, and I have to say that he didn't inspire me with confidence. When I told him that the outboard lite was 6 mm lami, he said, "Wait a minute - is this thing a light?" Hmm. I think I'm going to get him to meet me at the job so he can see what he's up against, and so I can get a feel for what I'll be dealing with. Think I'll ask him for some references while I'm at it.Anyway, that's where it's at. The customer, bless his heart, is very kind & patient, so at least I don't have to deal with an irate client on top of everything else.

2. 
   oberon476 | Mar 17, 2007 04:55pm | #6

   Well, it does work in the sense that you are now allowing room side air into the air space between the lites and by equalizing the air in and out of the IG the moisture would actually escape as the air between the lites expands as it was warmed by direct sunlight...etc, etc, but it is still just a bandaid solution. 

   And, while I agree 100%  that this thing is going to be a huge headache (or pain elsewhere) to replace, if it has interior condensation at only a year old then I would replace it without question - and no question it should be under warranty as well.

   Lami is expensive (and freaking heavy) and there is no reason that it should have condensation inside at a year unless there was a manufacturing issue when they built the thing.

   Just my two-cents, but I would replace it.

   Also, I would personally build / install the window with the lami inboard and the tempered outboard - but again, just my 2-cents.

    

    

   Edited 3/17/2007 9:58 am ET by Oberon