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Ryan:
You have learned the lesson and you are entitled to be pissed. Excellent suggestion on the pictures as your job progresses. Do file the small claims action. While you are in the courthouse, detour by the law library and have your friendly law librarian help you look up the relevant statutes on liens etc.
Make a copy for future reference. You would be surprised how helpful some librarians can be. When you leave the library, go find the clerk of court and find the judgment register. See if the client has a list of judgments against him. If so, make a copy, and attach it to your response to the consumer affairs people. Kind of hard to be a victim when you sue or have been sued a bunch.
FYI an oral contract is still a contract. You need to check your local statutes to see when you need a writing. Sometimes, full performance of a contract on your side can get you out of the statute of frauds problem. But you might want to find one of your friendly local lawyers for some good local legal help.
Good luck. The advice to be professional is excellent.
Bill K
Replies
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I just got a letter from my county DCA office. They want me to respond to a complaint against me.
Here's the background:
Went to see this guy a couple of months ago. He wanted some ceiling tile replaced in a kitchen where a pipe had broken and wanted that plastic paneling on the walls of a bath and the bath subfloor near the tub replaced.
This work was to be done in his daughters house on the same property as his. He wasn't feeling well and didn't want to go to show me the work so I went to see the work with his son.
I discussed the scope of work (tiny) with him and he told me that his daughter was unemployed and he was supporting her and he didn't have much money, blah,blah, blah. And wanted the cheapest work he could get. The phrase used was "rental property" quality.
I wrote up two contracts. One for the ceilng and one for the bath and just mailed them to him. He called and told me he didn't sign contracts. I know, I know. I should have walked away but I told him I'd do the ceiling repair (just over $250) on a handshake. I did and he paid.
I later heard from him that he was unhappy. I hadn't replaced all the stained tile.
I remember telling him that the ceiling would need to be painted for the tiles to match and this was not included (this is also in my not signed contract.) The son had said to not replace and stained tiles, only damaged ones. I had a whole case of tile so I went ahead and replaced a dozen or so that were just stained but not all. He of course can't remember the paint conversation and doesn't know where the contract is.
So, being a nice guy and wanting a happy customer, I said I'd replace some tile when I came to do the bath. I did the bath, didn't have to replace as much subfloor as I had first thought so knocked $300 off the price. (am I a sucker or what?)
The day I finished, He was asleep and couldn't be woken to write me a check. The next day, I got a call that the bath had 100 problems. I said I'd come right back. Thursday wasn't good, Friday the grandkids were over, Monday...no. Made three apointments to see him, all three canceled by him. His list of problems changes every time we talk.
last week we spoke and I told him that I was anxious to get this resolved and I didn't know what course of action I was going to take yet.
This guy just filed a complaint against me.
Some more info: The three days I was there, I found out that he has three childred, all in their 30's and 40's. All live on the same property with him on a three house "compound". One is unemployed and gets a grant of some sort to support herself. Two are on disability and this guy's also on disability. One of the sons is so disabled that he uses his disability money to travel around the world. The other disabled son leaves his house several times a day in a courier van with his name on the side. They have a bulletin board of his postcards. The whole family lives on government money.
Now, I know I was the victim of this guys scam. I'm sure there's a dozen mechanic's leins against this property and I'm sure he knows the system better than I do.
I had written off this as bad debt. Sometimes it happens and It's not enough money to warrant going to court. But now, there's a complaint against me. I'm pissed about that!!!
What do I do now? I've got ten days to respond to his compalint.
Sorry this is so long.
*Ryan,We all do some things we shouldn't when we have time and not enough work on our hands. The creep caught you when you had a weak moment.There is no way you are ever going to satisfy that jerk. I guess, if it were me, I would respond with minimal words to the effect that you totally fulfilled your verbal contractual obligation and he has no grounds for complaint. Then treat your self to a good movie.
*.....Ryan..you pegged him right... he's a crook.. and he's going to try to beat you... answer the complaint just like this...cut , copy, and paste your outline above and mail it to the hearing officer... follow up and find out what else they want you to do..file an action in small claims against the deadbeat..you are allowed ,, AS FAR AS I KNOW, to operate without a written contract, even though you now know better (it a lesson we are all doomed to leaarn over and over, until we finally learn it)..if you get a judgement, it will help your case in the complaint....IMHO
*I agree with Mike,Tell the DCA exactly what you just told us.Good luck.James DuHamel
*Ryan:Great story. I have a couple of questions and comments:1. Sounds like being in his family has some advantages. If I fake a disability, would he adopt me?2. There is an old saying, "No good deed goes unpunished"Jeez, the place sounds like dogpatch, with a bunch of poor white trash. Scary. The DCA won't do anything. Your'e in the right, you have the contracts, albeit unsigned, and his credibility is a big Zero
*Thanks, I'm not worried about the DCA actually doing anything to me. I don't like my name being drug through the mud when I work so hard to provide a good product and leave everybody happy. My biggest concern is that someday, ten years from now, someone's going to call the DCA to see if there's been any complaints filed against me and there will be one.I suspect that the DCA isn't exactly impartial in these matters. I suspect that the consumer is always right and business is always wrong no matter what the truth is.
*Ryan -If your area is like mine. The result is not an action and is yet to be determined on that part. It is only a complaint, you can get those for leaving oil on the driveway. Petitions not acted on, are struck.A lesson for all time for you, I'm sorry. A lesson I learned some time ago on hand shakers. Don't be shy on small claims court, file asap. He probably won't show and you win. Even if he did show, what do you have to loose? Learn the system. Know the lien.I very regularly take a before, during and after pictures. I often take video as well during the initial consultation and if things don't seem to go well, I will let the tape roll for the audio feature. Albeit mine are for warranty, On fair authority, by an attorney, all I ask is it OK to video record......and if needed, its there. I can't stop every squeak etc....and if the color was ok before, why isn't it now types......Well enough, you'll be fine. There isn't anyone that's been in the business thats perfect. References speak loudly and so do expamples. Just get those contracts & change orders signed every time. Best of luck !
*Ryan.Don't you know any bikers?Dam, I hate inbreds. Its been a few years since I worked for your clients southern cousins but it still pisses me off.Think I would call Social Security and turn them in.KK
*Ryan,I could be mistaken about this, but I don't think you should tell the DCA exactly what you just told us. I think you should leave out:>Some more info: The three days I was there, I found out that he has three childred, all in their 30's and40's. All live on the same property with him on a three house "compound". One is unemployed and gets agrant of some sort to support herself. Two are on disability and this guy's also on disability. One of the sons is so disabled that he uses his disability money to travel around the world. The other disabled son leaves his house several times a day in a courier van with his name on the side. They have a bulletin board of his postcards. The whole family lives on government money.I understand your point, but I bet this is not relevent and could actually hurt your case.I could be wrong (there was that time in '57)Rich Beckman
*.....as always Ryan... we can all profit from having a good editor...... Jim's point is right on....kind of like a letter to the editor... write it out.. put it in your drawer for a day.... take it out .. remove all the venom and sarcasm, make it short and SWEET,, and then send it...
*You gotta respond, but keep it professional. Offer to settle the original complaint(to the Dept. ,not to the deadbeats) hinging on final payment. Keep everything documented, and get letters of referal from past customers. Small price to pay to learn the benefits of signed contracts. In my area permits are required, often overlooked. This is exactly why I do only contract/permit/inspected work. More of a pian sometimes, but everyone is protected.I actually had an inspector tell a customer to stop complaining and pay up before I decided to charge what the work was really worth! Call the DCA, set up an appointment, let them know you're pissed(in a professional way) but willing to give a little(like a small paint job) to make sure they and the community know that you are trustworthy. Then forget about it except for lessons learned. Think Happy Thoughts....Jeff....a biker who like S.Jersey! Rich is right, it's politically incorrect to call thieving inbred trash what they are! Keep it professional.
*Ryan:You have learned the lesson and you are entitled to be pissed. Excellent suggestion on the pictures as your job progresses. Do file the small claims action. While you are in the courthouse, detour by the law library and have your friendly law librarian help you look up the relevant statutes on liens etc.Make a copy for future reference. You would be surprised how helpful some librarians can be. When you leave the library, go find the clerk of court and find the judgment register. See if the client has a list of judgments against him. If so, make a copy, and attach it to your response to the consumer affairs people. Kind of hard to be a victim when you sue or have been sued a bunch. FYI an oral contract is still a contract. You need to check your local statutes to see when you need a writing. Sometimes, full performance of a contract on your side can get you out of the statute of frauds problem. But you might want to find one of your friendly local lawyers for some good local legal help. Good luck. The advice to be professional is excellent. Bill K
*Well, I guess it's my turn...First off, an oral is no less a contract than a written contract. The property owner--party to your contract--had is son act as his agent. Therefore, when the son gave you the go ahead is when the old man accepted your contract. Your response the DCA requests is most likely nothing more than you getting to tell your side. Other than your "poor white trash" comments, I suggest you send what you have posted here to the DCA. Even though they are a govt. agency, they do possess the faculties of reason and logic. Include the originals of the two written contracts which the crook would not sign. Especially, you should include the facts supporting your claim you had made three attempts to meet to resolve his complaints.You have been keeping job logs, right? If not, let this be your wake-up call. If the guy is truly swindling the taxpayer, I'd think the last thing he would want is a govt. agency looking into his affairs. Now is the time for you to file that mech. lien and take him to small claims.Final comment: You should not make any further attempts to contact him, save one. Via registered mail, send him a formal "Demand for Payment" letter. As you think of what amount to ask for, be thinking,, "No more Mr. Nice Guy". Just short of rescinding any add/deduct you have made to the owner, or his agent you should retract any thought of being soft because of your perception he needs a hand up. Use a form letter format with your signature in ink. Do not attempt to reconcile or make any offer or acceptance to him. You are now seeking resolution with the DCA. Cheers
*I'm posting again because I didn't want to include this in with my response to Ryan's dilemma.Woodcarver Ron Wiener: It's time for the rest of the story. How'd it shake out with those two thugs who kyped your carvings?Also, I'm surprised our resident barristers, AndrewD and SHGlaw, haven't provided their elucidate expertise here. Could it be they are too busy stumping for their favorite candidate?
*What comes to my mind, is how can he say you ripped him off, if he never paid you ? That might be a good point to bring up when you respond to the complaint.
*i Via registered mail, send him a formal "Demand for Payment" letter. i Use a form letter format with your signature in ink. Do not attempt to reconcile or make any offer or acceptance to him. You are now seeking resolution with the DCA. Ryan, I see this stuff every single solitary day. I'm angry on your behalf - and you're right, you got scammed. Rich's advice, and the advice of other's here, is good. You have to respond to DCA. Do so just as everyone suggested, having someone type it up so it looks very professional. Do the two things Rich said which I highlighted above. MAKE SURE YOU SEND THE DEMAND VIA CERTIFIED MAIL!!! And if it comes back to you refused or something DO NOT OPEN IT. Keep the certified letter, unopened, for your small claims case. Then send another copy via regular mail, making another copy for your files and noting on the top the date sent via regular mail due to refusal of service on certified mail. Trust me here.Definitely file a small claims complaint. Remember - since he didn't sign a contract, and there's nothing in writing, this works as much to your advantage as to his. Now it's his word against yours. And the judge is going to decide who is more credible. And frankly, you provided him a contract which he refused to sign. Who sounds more credible to you? This is a matter of personal honor now. Go down to your Municipal Courthouse - they will have the forms. It's usually a very small fee to file in small claims court. Good Luck, and Go Get Him! And let us know what happens, okay? I wish I was there - I could whip all this stuff out for you in an hour. It's what I do for a living!
*I just re-read my initial post and all the responses so far. I'm sitting here laughing just because this is so rediculous. How come Dateline never does a piece on the public ripping off contractors? DATELINE: Watch out Contractors, The Public May Be Ripping You Off!!! Tonight at eleven.An old college friend of mine is a lawyer up in North Jersey now. I'm going up to go to her wedding later this month. I think I'll call her and see what she thinks. You all gave great advice, actually pretty much in line with what I was planning on doing anyway.The thing is, I don't only want to respond to this, I want it expunged (sp?). A letter from a lawyer is always alittle more intimidating anyway.Truth is, this guy was such an awful pain in the back side that I was happy to let him keep the money just to never have to talk to him again. He should have left well enough alone. Now He's got me mad.
*Don't know where andrew's been lately, but I've just finished up a project and have actually been practicing law. (Been doing a murder prosecution that's probably going to be on dateline, 20/20, etc.) Rich's stuff pretty much told the tale.And Ryan, if you aren't working for love, then do it for money. Treat it business-like, get the contract signed and get paid. Nobody is making you do work for nothing; it's up to you. While a hand-shake is every bit as much a contract as one on paper, it's a little harder to prove the terms. Bottom line in dealing with the complaint is the more business-like and rational you are, the less the customer seems to be. He went for you to stop you from going after him. Are you going to let that happen?SHG
*Me? I've been smacking a lot of nails and making sawdust. I -do- work sometimes.I think Ron wins the brass ring. What slimeball is doing is raising defenses to his nonpayment -- in advance of your demand! If you write it off as a bad debt, I'm not sure what the heck he has to complain about unless he thinks you left his hovel worse off.Being stubborn, I like the advice to fight back better. Like the man said, nothing personal, this is business (said the mobster as he cut off his buddy's thumb). Go in with the attitude that you have nothing to be defensive about, and don't fall for name-calling 'cause you'll just tar yourself. (Personally, I'd look into an anonymous tip to Social Security regarding the DIB abuses you reported -- they really do take these seriously, I reviewed a fair number of cases in my old job. Some guys aspire to nothing more in life than to be declared disabled.)That said, I'd be kind of surprised if you get any money out of this. the client sounds "experienced." "I don't sign contracts" would have sent me out the door personally, and I'm sure it will you the next time. But a lien specific to your materials sounds reasonable enough. I bet the sheriff has been there before! And never underestimate your ability to just wear him down, or annoy the heck out of him -- legitimately.So, who'd you murder, SHG? :)
*Ryan, see my rant under "Thieves, Chapter 2", created by WoodCarver Ron Wiener. DO NOT LET THIS SCUMBALL GET AWAY.
*Yes, I was encouraging Ron ... how did things turn out?
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