This may be a question better suited to the Woodworking forum, but I thought this forum may have some better ideas. – lol
I’m a small-time GC and most (90%) of my business is designing and building custom cabinets. My shop is the garage so I’m limited in the size of my projects and I’m not really interested in renting commercial space.
Last week, I met with some folks who want to do a major kitchen remodel. They’ve talked to a couple of cabinet companies but aren’t really happy with the designs they were given – and they really resented being pressured to sign a contract before they’re ready.
We discussed some of their ideas – and I threw in some of my own – and I agreed to give them some “conceptual” sketches. Then – if they like them – we would come up with a more formal arrangement and move forward.
Now, for my question.
What would be a fair charge to do the detailed design work and “coordinate” with the cabinet shop to get the cabinets built, finished, and installed. I’m thinking that the charge should be a percentage of the price but I’m not sure what that percentage should be.
Suggestions would be welcomed.
Thanks
Replies
Handing you the Bosch "Can O' Worms" opener ;)
I'm trying to evolve more into a model where we charge for design time without exception (I'm working on it Mike S... ). When I do I charge $75.00.hr, same as labor (for frame of reference I'm in CT, high overhead). My rationale (the few times I've had to discuss it with a client) is that I make the same money whether I'm fabricating/installing/or designing.
HTH
PaulB
I'm going in the same direction and am trying to find the demarcation point between doing enough "free" design to sell the job without investing a lot of time that may get wasted.
It's pretty easy for "one-off" stuff, but kitchens are more of a commodity. Most people I've talked to aren't really thrilled with the designs they get, but think that they're free. I've had my best success when I've pointed out that my designs aren't just arrangements of "canned" modules, but are specifically designed to meet their needs. Most of them seem to like the concept, but I'm hunting for a way to charge for my work - percentaqe or just $/hr - lol
I try to make it clear up front that as soon as we start talking wish lists, design, configuration, specs for cabs and appliances, in other words, once we begin the process, my time is billed at $75 per hour.
And I'll bet that this rate of $75 is less than that charged by a qualified kitchen design professional, one with the CKD initials after his or her name.
I'm not a building contractor, I'm a custom fabricator specializing in home furnishings: furniture, very custom cabinets, stair rails.........
With a new client: If they come to my shop for the first meeting, I'm happy to talk for a spell and I charge nothing for that. If they want me to meet them at their house for that initial meeting, then they will pay from $50 to $100 for the initial meeting. Then (after we've met) and they want to engage my services I charge for all my time and by the hour for design/coordination time. If I'm doing all the work then I charge a fixed fee for the design and cost quote or estimate whichever is appropriate. They are liable for this fee whether or not they accept my quote. Usually the design remains mine unless they are choosing to purchase it. (No body ever has.... they've always had me do the fabrication.) So the answer to your question is yes, I charge for design...... always.
If the client is someone whom I've worked for before: I don't ever charge for an initial visit no matter where it is. This is because I've found that if someone is engaging me again, they will follow through with the project.... or a similiar project. However, the clock still starts when I start designing. No one has ever objected.
If I quote a job then there is no hourly charge unless they make substantial changes. (No one ever has.) Nowadays, I an doing more and more open-ended projects where the client asks me to make something and charge accordingly when it is completed. I am free to design as I go. Still, I ask for an "estimated" payment of one half the total at the beginning of the project unless it's for a smallish amount.
I do a lot of work in collaboration with an interior designer and she always charges for all meetings, designs, etc. Her fee is by the hour and is substantial. There is no reason that a talented cabinet maker should not be expected to do the same.
Sapwood -
You're where I eventually want to be, but I'm not there yet - lol.
I did this as a hobby for almost 30 years (my house, friends, etc) and "went pro" three years ago. I've done some pretty neat jobs - and a few things just to get a payday. I've always struggled with how much "free" design I need to do to sell the job and this became a problem earlier this year when I spent quite a bit of time on a design then had the customer flake out on me.
FWIW, I just got back from my meeting with this kitchen customer and I'm pretty sure I'll get the job. When we were talking about my designs v.s. what he had gotten from a couple of cabinet companies, he really liked the idea that they get to make most of the decisions instead of taking whatever "stock" modules I had to offer. The clincher came when I told him that most cabinet companies line up their modules and add a filler panel to cover any gaps. I fill those gaps with usable cabinets. Those voids are precious space - lol.
If I could collect minimum wage for all the "free" design and work I've done over the years, I could retire with that 50' cutter I want. That free stuff must be what's called paying your dues!
$310.17
The freebies aren't a total loss. I do everything in CAD and I've been able to "recycle" parts of those designs into paying projects.
I've also managed to re-use one window seat design twice. It took ~4 hours to design the first one and I used that number when I estimated the second one. The actual design time for the second one was ~15 minutes (a couple of stretch commands, change the name in the title block, and print - lol)
Slow season--local-- $75/hour on site.
Busy... $100-125
For design work... I quote a price... and that's it. Small project--250 Larger project... upto $3500 at times... depends what it is.
Most designs are less than $1000
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
You are a cabinet maker. You want to be a cabinet designer.
That's a major change in the soul of your business.
The public perception of a tradesman (cabinet maker) is that he's worth $12.50 -$25 / hour. A mechanic (plumber, sparky, automotive) is worth $50 - $75 / hour.
An artist, (Designer,) OTOH, is priceless. An Artist makes one-of-a-kind, beautiful stuff.
Is your market in a high enough bracket to afford an artist?
Can you position yourself as one?
We discussed some of their ideas - and I threw in some of my own - and I agreed to give them some "conceptual" sketches. Then - if they like them - we would come up with a more formal arrangement and move forward.
So far, so good. I suggest that you first decide how much money you're willing to give away. $100? $500? 1% of project? 10% of project?
Convert that figure to your hourly rate and don't spend more time than that on the conceptual sketches.
Now the hard part. Compute how much time per year you spend on giveaways and what your Closing Ratio is. Multiply your giveaways by that ratio and add it to your Closed project costs.
Otherwise, you are working for free.
SamT
Now if I could just remember that I am a businessman with a hammer and not a craftsman with a business....."anonymous". . .segundo
Sam -
An excellent post full of great points. I'm in my third year as a "pro" and have seen my business change from copying a "design" from pictures or sketches provided by the customers to starting with a blank sheet of paper and some general questions about what they're trying to achieve. I still ask them for pictures, but only as a way to know what styles they prefer.
I don't think of myself as an "artist". I'm just a very creative guy with a talent for designing practical solutions that look really nice. For me, the perfect project begins on the computer where I draw up my ideas (and hopefully find the problem areas before I cut up a bunch of expensive wood - lol). Then, taking the drawings into the shop and actually making it gives me a second "rush" - and actually gives me my payday.
This year, I've gotten into much larger projects which require much more design time and that's been a problem. I've had some projects die when the actual price came in well over their budget, and I'm pretty sure that couple of "customers" shopped my drawings around. Either way, I was out quite a bit of time that made $0.00 and that ain't any way to run a railroad. - lol
I don't think of myself as an "artist". I'm just a very creative guy with a talent for designing practical solutions that look really nice. For me, the perfect project begins on the computer where I draw up my ideas (and hopefully find the problem areas before I cut up a bunch of expensive wood - lol). Then, taking the drawings into the shop and actually making it gives me a second "rush" - and actually gives me my payday.
This year, I've gotten into much larger projects which require much more design time and that's been a problem. I've had some projects die when the actual price came in well over their budget, and I'm pretty sure that couple of "customers" shopped my drawings around. Either way, I was out quite a bit of time that made $0.00 and that ain't any way to run a railroad. - lol
Go back and read your two posts again. Read them outloud 100 times. Have your wife read them to you.
After reading them enough, you'll discover your "problem".
blue
ps The hints are in bold!
Devil -
You're quite correct with your assesment of the second "hint " which is what led to this whole thread. As I said........"that ain't any way to run a railroad. - lol". My "problem" is finding the place where the freebies end and the charges start. Too soon, and the customer is gone. Too late, and you've wasted a lot of time for nothing. It sorta reminds me of fishing for bluegill as a kid. You watch the bobber begin to move and try to guess the best moment to set the hook - lol
I would debate you about the first "hint", however. In my reality, an "artist" creates his/her art for the love of doing it. Except for a very few, money isn't part of the equation until after they're long dead.
If you are not able to get paid for design work, then never give anyone drawings. You can show them your designs, but never leave a client with something they can use to shop.
Contrary to the assertion that an artist can command a high price for his or her work, most artists cannot afford to support themselves with their work.
Don't think that you will scare away good customers away by charging them for your work. You will scare away bad customers and good riddance. A good customer will value your work if you charge for it and wonder about its value if it is free. Good luck.
most artists cannot afford to support themselves with their work.
bs
Almost any half arsed artists output can be sold for enough to support the artist in good shape.
Most artists don't want, don't know how, are too proud, too ashamed, or too afraid, to act like a businessman and sell, sell, sell their product for what it will bring.
I met an artist yesterday at the waitressing at the cafe. She said "I do art because I have to express my feelings. It's just junk that belongs in the back of the closet, but my friends all say that it's really good." (some paraphrasing there. ed)
She'll never support herself with art.SamT
Now if I could just remember that I am a businessman with a hammer and not a craftsman with a business....."anonymous". . .segundo <!----><!---->
Sam-
"Most artists don't want, don't know how, are too proud, too ashamed, or too afraid, to act like a businessman and sell, sell, sell their product for what it will bring."
You are right but they are artists, and that is about as far from a businessman as you can get. I'm sure that in some cases that is what makes them good artists. In other cases it just means that they are poor.
She'll never support herself with art
She could, if she hired a sales agent to sell for her. They'd have to keep her under wraps though.
blue
SamT
Now if I could just remember that I am a businessman with a hammer and not a craftsman with a business....."anonymous". . .segundo <!----><!---->
Every client wants a price wether or notbthey have plans. I would say, I can draw the plans for your $ .00 budget for a fee of that will be subtracted from the budget if I do the work. If they want to cut the budget then they will pay you again, at least both of you have a starting point.
In my reality, an "artist" creates his/her art for the love of doing it.
What about your clients reality? Dey da ones wit da bling.
You some of that? Then get in their reality. . .
Be (what they see as) an artist.
Be priceless. SamT
Now if I could just remember that I am a businessman with a hammer and not a craftsman with a business....."anonymous". . .segundo <!----><!---->
For starters, don't give your designs away. Standard practice for designers and architects is to show the client all the pictures they want. But clients can't take drawings with them until they pay for the design in full or retain your services with a contract.
DG
$1500.00 retainer.
They can have the plans when your done.
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