My remodel client is working with a high-dollar kitchen & bath boutique to spec and order the tile for the floors and counters. I have met with the lady twice and she seems to have both feet pretty well on the ground, but it’s clear that she plainly places style over cost and do-ability (hope that’s a word).
In addition to meeting with her, I provided very accurate cad drawings of the countertops and floors so she could create layouts, and I have provided specific dimensions as requested. Got a copy of the material quote ($9 for the counter tile and $14.80/sf for the floor tile, material only), with the following note in the cover letter: “It should be the tile installer’s job to provide correct quantities”. Not sure I agree, but I’m looking for advice/comments. Either way, I won’t make an issue of it, and I’ll try hard to get the correct quantities, but I wonder if she’s trying to pass the buck. Note: bfore you say something about me passing the buck to the tile installer, treat me & him as the same enitity…the question is should the gc/installer verify quantities, or is it the archy/designer’s job?
Do it right, or do it twice.
Replies
I will tell someone sizes of anything they ask, but I will not tell them what quantities of anything to order. Among other reasons, I don't know what waste factor different contractors use. Also, I have no financial stake in that ordering, and could be second guessed no matter what...one tile too few and it'd be my fault...one tile too many and same thing. How much grout? How much thinset? Oy vey!
My experience is that framer counts studs, plumber counts pipes, electrician counts wire...I count feet and inches...the dimension of any item they wanna know about.
Well, you can handle it one of two ways:
1. Tell her she specs the quantities, and then you can piss and moan when she doesn't add for cuts, or forgets about the waste created by patterns, 45's, etc. Then you get to wait 4-6 weeks for the balance of the material to show up, and hope it matches. Needless to say, the customer won't be thrilled with either of you.
2. You can review her quantities, add for cuts, waste, and extra for the customer. True, you "could" end up a tile short, but if you cushion yourself a bit, you stand a better chance of getting enough tile ordered than the designer does (trust me on that one....lol). Sure, the client may be upset that she's paying for 110 SF of tile for her 100 SF floor (which I'm sure is what the designer based her costs on- $14.50 per actual SF), but explain option 1 to her, and she which she prefers.
Your choice.
Bob
As far as I'm concerned, the person why BUYS the material should take resposibility for quantities.
If the HO is buying it to save money, then it's their problem. If the installer is buying it (And marking it up) then they should do it.
The trouble with the legal profession is that 98 percent of its members give the rest a bad name.
I agree with Boss Hog, if customer wants to buy it's on them. I buy for subs somewhat frequently and I'm usually on the short end of the deal when they overrun material compared to my crews.
My bitch is it has happened twice this year that the scale labeled on my plans is not accurate - i.e. I take off 6000', it's really 5000' or 7000'. That's a hard one to catch. It's a legitimate change order but still no fun.
remodeler
You are wrong. The tile setter should give the HO the amount of both standard tile and trim tile. If they don't no one will be happy. The HO won't get the job done and the tile setter will have to come back to finish. Every tile setter that I have met has different ways of calculating waste. If the tile setter has a problem not getting the 10-20% markup on materials then they should add the cost to their bid ie. if I supply the tile it cost this much, if you supply the tile it cost this much. The person that buys the material is responsible for having them delivered when they are needed which tends to be a bigger problem.
Thanks for all the clear advice :) The HO is buying the tile because, when the job started, she had no clue what she wanted, so we agreed that I would provide the labor and mastic and grout, and she would select and purchase the tile. Same for the light fixtures...there's not even an allowance in the deal, she just pays for whatever she selects. In all cases of owner supplied material, she involves me almost too much in the decision proces, to be sure she doesn't select something that won't work. BTW we have a very good relationship going on this project, probably the best I have ever encountered.
Do it right, or do it twice.
Hehehe...sorry, gotta laugh a bit and forgive me if this is not so germain to the thread, but I did a tile job for a good buddy of mine's (I was in his wedding), wife's parents whose place the wedding was at. I think they were doing a lot of this "sprucing" up for the wedding.
Anyway, I do kind of a take-off of square-footage; a couple bathrooms and a bunch of hallway, another bathroom, utility room and some other stuff. Well, they go out and buy the material; great! I can't remember if I gave them a $ figure for the whole job or hourly; I would prefer by the job which is the way I'd rather go--this has been probably seven years ago now.
Anyway, I get cranking with the help of one of the sons who lives in the basement of the house and is competent and say, why don't you do this stuff? So we're clicking along and bloody heck if we don't come up short on some of the bathroom tile near the vanities. They get the additional same color/texture tile, but it don't match! Oh well, I'm like I was giving you guys general square footage on what to expect for material expenses--I wasn't doing a dang precise take-off on the exact amount that I was going to lay.
Everything was cool, but still, you wonder if you doing this for a client as opposed to a friend's new inlaws. ;-P
I agree. I sub tile installs...
The guys I sub for just want a labor-only price. They supply all necessary materials...
One lead carp I trust to have everything I need there... for all the rest ....
I measure and add... then present my demands.
I'll decide just how much extra I need, thank U. And I always end up with a little extra for the HO to hold onto. Grout and thinset are pretty easy too ...
But we get our tiles from a real tile store ... so they usually leave it up to the tile store to decide how many bags to give me. If I decide I needed more ..... I just put it on their tab.
I don;t know why you'd want the designer to decide how much materials ya have to work with in the first place.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
I assume you have language in your contract for owner supplied labor and materials, with regard to deficiencies/warranty/delays, and I consider the designer to be owner supplied labor. I also assume you to be the GC, correct?
By all means supply quantities for material, referenced to the proposed layout, in writing. What's the big deal, you have to do something for all that money you make for nothing, (kidding). Now I wouldn't beancount the measurements in any way. You need to allow for waste, damage, and future repair tiles. Generally, full cases can be returned for a re-stocking fee, but shortages and delays can easily cost more than the tile is worth.
If you have the proper language in your contract you will be covered for a shipment of damaged tiles, short quantity from what you requested, and delays and extra costs resulting from them.
For an interesting exercise, see what you could have bought the tile for, and see what markup the designer is using. I doubt you will worry too much about specifying an extra 10% after seeing that.
I think the designer is passing a few small bills your way, because this designer was called in for a specific area of design (kitchen) in the project. I would think the designer could give you a number to start with and basically get out of liability by noting that the GC needs to field verify the quanites. I don't have much experience with a specific consultant though, so I may be wrong. Also, with a remodel I would want the contractor to know what was bought or estimated in case changes occur on site during construction.
dps
Designers & quantities are dangerous waters. CAD can make it worse, the precision of CAD give it a reality beyond real life (to steal a line I cannot cite).
Personally, quantity take offs are something I have always felt were a hallmark of tradecraft, and theus, "belonged" to whoever was bidding the job. Some tile has more 'breakage' than others. Scribing a backsplash may take more tile than some percentage of the whole tiles.
Do I use CAD for take off or bill-of-materials (BOM)? Yes, but only to get a general idea of the quantities. Sadly, I know of firms who are "too deep" in BOM. They are letting their CAD numbers "drive" the design (the whole roll of carpet; the even muber of hardiplank, etc.) What they have not yet decidedto believe from the field is that those numbers are only generally accurate.
Back to the thread, the kitchen designer's "boilerplate" probably has the GC is responsible for quantities in it as protection--which you need if you are specifying by style rather than cost.
The person bidding and installing the work is always responsible for verifying quantity and sufficiently covering themselves in their submittal when pursuing any job my firm does the construction management on. I've included "approximate quantity" numbers on drawings before to help with the bid process but it is always with a disclaimer such as the one you referred to. I do not ever recall taking responsibility for insuring the contractor knows the correct quantity of material to order.
How is a designer supposed to know for certain that you will install it exactly as they laid it out to arrive at the exact quantity of tiles they did? I would sure talk to the supplier about allowing you to over order for a margin of safety and return the unused material for a refund.
Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -