hello everyone, I am new to this so please let me know if I am missing something or should do anything else with my discussion topics.
Today I am working on switching my ceiling fans around. We had an ugly brown fan in a room we just refinished and wanted a white one from another room in there. So I pulled down the two fans and in the process forgot which wire is which (common and power). I live in an older home and the wiring is that old stuff. Of course, there is no ground wire and the box is not grounded either.
Can anyone provide any suggestions on how to determine which wire is power and which is common? Also, what are the issues with not having a ground wire for the ceiling fan?
Thanks for any suggestions you can provide.
Replies
bump
'Nemo me impune lacesset'
No one will provoke me with impunity
Use a volt meter to determine which wire is hot and which is neutral.Good luck!^^^^^^
Using a volt meter then he needs a ground.
He should have 115v + or - between the two.
Can't go by switch I've seen as many neutral switches as I have hot ones.
He should have some sort of ground at the panel, he could connect to the ground there, & then use a volt meter to see which leg is hot.
I don't even trust black verses white I have seen both hot.
Now here's where I'm probably gonna stick my foot in my mouth------ Does it really matter which one is hot----- it's ac current"There are about 550000000 firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is...........How do we arm the other eleven?" Yuri Orlov<!----><!----><!---->
Most ceiling fans I see have electronic controls of some sort ,& yes reversing the connections matter.
I was always curious bout that I can't remember just how many outlets & other things I have seen that were wired in reverse."There are about 550000000 firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is...........How do we arm the other eleven?" Yuri Orlov<!----><!----><!---->
Damn...thought this was gonna be about bi-polar syndrome....shucks...this ain't no fun...If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
It IS about bipolar. Imerc has a DMM that can tell the manic side.
DG/Builder
You gotta have a grounded outlet somewhere in the house.
Run an extension cord from the grounded outlet, put 1 probe from a voltage meter into the ground on the extsion cord, the other probe should show power on only 1 of the wires in the box.
Or go to the hw store & pick up one of the $8 pen type voltage detectors.
If you have a non contact voltage indicator here is what I have done.
just pull the wires down and clear of the box don't let them touch anything and flip the power back on. The voltage indicator will light at the hot wire. Shut the power back off and mark the wire for future reference and complete re wiring.
"You gotta have a grounded outlet somewhere in the house.Run an extension cord from the grounded outlet, put 1 probe from a voltage meter into the ground on the extsion cord, the other probe should show power on only 1 of the wires in the box."Exactly.If you go from the ground on the extension cord to the neutral it will read 0 to a couple of volts.If you from ground to the hot and the switch is on you will read about 120. If the switch is off and you have a digital voltmeter you will often read a phantom voltage. That can be anywhere from 20 to 100 volts, but will typically read about 60.If the switch is OFF and you read 120 volts on the hot and the neutral reads a phantom voltage then you have a switched neutral, which is dangerous.
Thanks for the comments. I was reading through all of the replies and most of the comments seemed to get contradicted later in the discussion by someone else.
Unfortunately, my home is older and most of the house is not grounded except for new outlets and wiring that I have done. I didn't have any of the equipment withme and my VOM was dead so I couldn't use that. I was trying to get the ceiling fan installed in a rush.
Your comments were very helpful and I appreciate your response.
a cheap digital meter will tell you the polarity with a negative sign in the display...
no polarity sign usually means the red lead of the meter is connected to hot..how ever if you read the manual for the meter there will be no doubt.
sounds like a meter will become invaluable to you..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Edited 3/18/2006 5:03 pm by IMERC
cheap digital meter will tell you the polarity with a negative sign in the display...
Polarity? In an AC circuit? Ummm...
DG/Builder
Edited 3/18/2006 5:10 pm ET by dgbldr
my fluke tells me which lead on the meter is hot....
second choice is one of those testers with a light that you only have to hold to the wire to find hot..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Edited 3/18/2006 5:11 pm by IMERC
Bad boy Imerc, Bad boy!We are talking about AC here, there is no plus or minus.Are you still trying to fix that sensor on your truck?Polarity might be the wrong term here, trying to id which wire is hot and which is the neutral or grounded conductor. But it is what is commonly used.OK, go to the dog house and no kibbles for you tonight.
My DMM does show which lead is hot and it also does duty cycle, freq count, RMS, delta, temp, range, induction, ohms, mmfd, pfd, wave, ac/dc - amps (500), mv, and a bunch of other stuff... I went and double checked...
Make that Nutro...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
......induction?.
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'Wer ist jetzt der Idiot?'
after all this and Stemp decided to lay out or low...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
What is the make and model number of that DMM?
fluke eighty something...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
showoff.......I have a Fluke tic which is also a LED flashlight..and it has a clip ...
.anyway the other day I had the thing clipped to my baseball cap and when I touched a hot wire with my finger, the tester flashed. I was so amused I just kept touching the wire so I could see the tester flash from blue to red..I spent most of the day just lookin for other things to touch.
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'Wer ist jetzt der Idiot?'
the 78 and the ninety something do a ton of stuff too... fergit what now...
clip it to yer pocket and get near live voltage... (lights up ithe inside of yur poket) and ya can have fun with those that don't know what it is....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Ok I'll try that.......
and another thing....Fluke don't make a ninety anything, .....HA
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'Wer ist jetzt der Idiot?'
Edited 3/18/2006 10:24 pm by maddog3
ya made me go look...
yer right...
and Stemp is still D'nC'n...............Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
yep, 59 posts and no stemp....nice.
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'Wer ist jetzt der Idiot?'
the fluke 90 is the case for the other 87...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
HOORAY ........ it was buggin ya ? huh?
........ wasn't it, huh? huh? just a little heheheeh.
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'Wer ist jetzt der Idiot?'
buggin' .... No....
had to know...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
ever wire in a new HVAC unit... switch the nuetral / hot or leave the ground open... it won't function...
same for Variac motor equipment / controlers...
polarity matters...
so the issue is and should be... we be doin' this right or not at all...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
so the issue is and should be... we be doin' this right or not at all...
UMERC: amen to that.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
I was so amused I just kept touching the wire so I could see the tester flash from blue to red..I spent most of the day just lookin for other things to touch
'Wer ist jetzt der Idiot?'
You got that backwards. The question comes first, then the answer :)
DG/Builder
I got it backwards ??????I'm pleased someone even gets it.....hahahahahaha.
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'Wer ist jetzt der Idiot?'
Are you my little nephew Schnickelfritz? It's past your bedtime!
Tante Gertrude Besserwisser
LMAO......
bedtime? ja sobald ich mein Cocktail beende....or maybe one more;).
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'Wer ist jetzt der Idiot?'
I tried a google on that and came up with this information."A quick glance outside and she saw an eighty-something-year-old woman slowly shuffling her ... Maybe that's a fluke. I've never heard it say that before, ..""Although it was actually an eighty-something Irish guy in a hat like Burroughs used ... and it's nice to see that Demo wasn'ta fluke in Wood's repertoire, ."Now I did find the Fluke 83 and 87. Which has all the features that you where talking about, except it is limited to 10 amps and it does not indicate which lead is hot (unless you get the 87 with the temp probe.http://us.fluke.com/usen/products/features.htm?cs_id=34473(FlukeProducts)&category=HMA(FlukeProducts)
I have the temp probe, (rod style) Adaptor to take the AC/DC amps to 500 and the shunt for 1KA.. you know already it does milliamps...
also have the infra prope for it too..
if you hold a function button down when you turn it on it gives a full display of all it's functions...
let me try to capture it and post ya pic...
did I mention duty cycle and Hertz... High / low recording and averaging... phasing...
shunt protected Ohms so ya don't toast if you plug it into a live circut...
when I was doing motor freq contoller (polarity does mater) calibrations it took 2 of those puppies at the same time to get the job done and at almost 5 bills in 80's dollars the attachments / accessories were peanuts...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Tried an 87 yesterday, no polarity indication on AC. Same with my 16.
Only caveat is that there are different versions of the 87, depends on age of unit.
old...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
OK, it's my turn to stir the pot. How can a Fluke DVM show a + and - on AC? AC by definition is a alternating current, hence both leads swap + and - every cycle?Now explain how in a house the Fluke can show + or - relative to two wires in a box correctly all the time if a typical house has a 120/240 volt centertap transformer feeding it. The center tap is neutral connection, so at any instance on the 240 volt sine wave you take a reading of any 120 circuit, the "hot" wire may be on the - or + side of neutral? Does one bus always read + and the other bus always read - ?As far as the original question, I always had good luck with the neon light tester and dim light, holding one lead in my hand as a "capacitive ground". The tic voltage alerts are nice, but as someone said beware. Know the capability of your tools. They have failed me in high sunshine areas.Frank DuVal You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
when the black lead is on hot and the red is on nutral or bond a - sign shows in the top left of the screen....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
In order to do that it would have to depend on capacitive pickup as a "reference". Not real reliable.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
>>"In order to do that it would have to depend on capacitive pickup as a "reference". Not real reliable."
Could also use the emr off the hot. Just a receiver tuned to 60 Hz AM (VLF) on the dial. ;-)
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
Like I said, not real reliable. There can be a lot of noise on the neutral as well, and especially in a K&T house there could be several lone hots running in the nearby wall, creating a bogus "ground reference".
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Just to play "devil's advocate" if IMERC's meter actually compares the emr in the two lines and has threshold comparators on each line, I could see how it could be very accurate. He's got hot & neutral to reference with actual contact. Different from just a non-contact pen on a hot hanging out in space.
Who knows?
I use a non-contact pen. I know how to use it though so I feel confident in what it tells me (like "energize -- line A beeps, line B silent; de-energize -- line A silent, line B silent; energize -- line A beeps, line B silent; de-energize -- line A silent, line B silent" -- OK, I know which is hot). Then to be "sure" a circuit is de-energized before I start playing with it, I touch hot and neutral across thumb to index finger (of course, making sure none of the rest of me is grounded or hot anywhere else) -- never been zapped that way, but it's my final fail-safe. Wouldn't hand a non-contact pen to any cherub and say go forth, but I'm careful. Maybe one day I'll straighten out like a 'lectricuted snake. ;-)
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
Have you used that much in a K&T house?
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
>>Have you used that much in a K&T house?
Yup. Now I know I'm about to step in it. Why do you ask?
Before I get blasted, I also have tone generator wire tracing tools that I use for K&T troubleshooting/rewiring.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
I use the neon light, hold one lead in contact with skin, touch other lead to each line. If it lights up, that's the hot.
The thing is, you can be standing in a corner of a K&T house that has several hots running through the walls and only the one neutral. Oh, and the neutral can be switched. And fused.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Been there. I work in Phila. where the housing stock dates to the late 1700's. Some places were updated with gas lighting, again with K&T, again with cloth wrapped, again with old BX, again with Romex -- what's next? Some of the old service panels remain as junction boxes and you can see the old fuse panels abandoned in the backs of them. Interesting stuff.
You should see some of the plumbing too. Old surveys show where the privy pits were in each lot. I actually had to fill one that was still intact under a crawl space addition, 'cause it was allowing rats to travel between houses. Rats came up into the houses from abandoned sewer pipes in the crawls and then could run the whole block by using adjoining privy pits. It was a fun job. ;-)
For the K&T, my favorite installation was someone put a light/fan combo in a bath. Ran a new piece of 12-2 WG from the switches to the fixture. Both conducters switched for the light/fan. For the neutral they used an old piece of K&T that ran in a different wall to that same fixture. Very interesting approach. What was weird is it wouldn't trip the GFCI except when touched (it was protected and I couldn't figure how it wouldn't trip the GFCI 'cause the neutral came from elsewhere -- maybe the GFCI was toast). Never figured that out and didn't spend much time pondering it before replacing the 12-2 with a piece of 12-3 and abandoning the old K&T neutral.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
wot hoppen'd ta stemps????Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
>>wot hoppen'd ta stemps????
Weekend warrier. We'll see him back here next Sat. ;-)
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
did ya get the answer you were looking fer...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Thanks for the help everyone, I was in the hospital the last couple of days with severe burns to my hands and fingers...naw, just kidding. Everything worked out fine.
I didn't have a ground in close proximity and my VOM wasn't working for some reason. I need a better one. I ended up using my outlet checker (three lights indicating the condition of an outlet hookup). I touched one prong to a wire and the other prong with my finger. I got a slight glow on the light. When I did the same with the other wire there was no light so I knew which wire was the power that way.
I appreciate all of your comments.
glad ya got it working....
was beginning to think we were having all the fun and you were out on the door steep....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Maybe you and Bigman can get together and hire a semi to send the kibble this way. Just want to save you a little money.But don't take too long, Max the Mut is getting hungry.
my turn to do a live field test....
got my load of Nutro ready to go...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Go to the hardware store and get a "voltage pencil" for a couple of bucks. Touch the tip to the wires, one at a time. The hot will light it up, the neutral won't. Obviously this needs to be done with the power on.
From the question you asked, it's clear you haven't been around electricity much. Be real careful with the power on, don't kill yourself to save a few bucks on an electrician. And turn the power off when working on anything. Then use the pencil to verify you really did turn off the right circuit.
To the second question, read the fan owner's manual and call the manufacturer if the grounding requirements are not clearly stated.
DG/Builder
go buy a GFI receptacle....if you wire that incorrectly it will not work., and you will then know which wire is hot
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'Wer ist jetzt der Idiot?'
no ground... remember...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
GFCI's don't require a ground to work.In fact that is one of the legal ways to add grounding receptacels to circuits without an EGC. But the are suppose to be labled "No Equipment Ground".You trying for 2 days without any kibble.
make sure of that statement and you might as well as make that a 100# sack..Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Which statement;"GFCI's don't require a ground to work.""In fact that is one of the legal ways to add grounding receptacels to circuits without an EGC. But the are suppose to be labled "No Equipment Ground"."And I stand 100% behind, infront, and beside those statement (except I am not sure of the exact wording of the lable).http://www.codecheck.com/250_50_commentary.htmlhttp://www.codecheck.com/gfci_principal.htmhttp://www.epanorama.net/documents/wiring/gfci.htmlhttp://www.popularmechanics.com/home_improvement/home_owner_clinic/1889457.html
Hey Bill,I might be wrong here - it sounds like you know a lot more about this than I do, but the electrical wholesale guy told me that the gov made the GCFI manufacturers quit making GCFI's that would work without the ground. He showed me the symbol on the new ones (smart-lock?). At that time he said there are still a lot of old ones around (in inventory). Can you correct me or fill me in? Thanks,
Fz
I think that he has a lot of things mixed up.First of all "government" is not making them do anything. However, UL has a new specs. So it has industry review, but I think that the CPS had input into the new specs.The term smart-lock (SmartLock) is a Leviton TM and they have been using it since 2003. So it would not be used by other brands. Likewise P&S uses SafeLock since 2003.I don't know about the symbol. There are changes in the GFCI's and they have been discussed starting here and the following messages.http://forums.prospero.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=71065.8http://forums.prospero.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=71065.8I will update that thread with some more info in few minutes.I have not seen any reference to these changes requiring the use of a an EGC connections. And that requirement would negate the use of the GFCI on ungrounded circuits as speficially allowed in the NEC.
Thanks Bill,It would seem really stupid for them to have eliminated this option (that GCFI's would not work in an ungrounded situation).
don't need one
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'Wer ist jetzt der Idiot?'
Bill H is sure busy today.
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'Wer ist jetzt der Idiot?'
yur gonna haveta keep Bill company in the dog house...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
hahahahaha
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'Wer ist jetzt der Idiot?'
GFCI's don't care about polarity (which lead is hot and which is not). They only care that the amount of current that goes out the outsie is the same amount that comes back in the insie (don't you like my use of technical terms).You might be confusing the fact that they need the power connected to the line side to work and they won't work if the power is connected to the load side.
maybe I am but I thought they still had to have... hot to hot ....to work on the line side...BTW thanks for clearing that tic tracer flaw.
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'Wer ist jetzt der Idiot?'
DANGER!!!!!!!!!
WARNIGN!!!!!!!!
DO NOT DEPEND ON THE NON-CONTACT TEST (PENCIL STICK, TICK TESTER) TO VERIFY WHAT WHICH IS HOT AND WHICH IS NEUTRAL.
THAT CAN GET YOU K*I*L*L*E*D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THEY DO HAVE THERE PLACE, BUT THIS AINT ONE OF THEM.
THEY OFTEN GIVE FALSE POSITIVES AND SOMETIME FALSE NEGATIVES.
SPECIALLY IF YOU HAVE A SWITCHED NEUTRAL.
AFTER YOU HAVE VERIFIED WHICH IS WHICH WITH A VOLTMETER THEN YOU CAN USE THE TICK TESTER AND SEE WHAT THE READING ARE WITH THE SWITCH ON AND OFF. THEN TURN OFF THE BREAKER AND USE THE TESTER AGAIN.
THAT WILL GIVE YOU AN IDEA OF THE RESPONSES ON THAT CIRCUIT AT THAT TIME.
THE MOST USEFUL PURPOSE OF THEM IS SEE IF A CIRCUIT IS HOT AND THEN AFTER YOU TURN THE BREAKER OFF TO VERIFY THAT IT IS OFF.
AND YES I AM SHOUTING.
On a normal correctly wire sysytem, the black is hot. you can always look in the fuse box and see if they wired black to circuit breakers, but that doesnt guarentee anything.. 2+3=7
The problem is that he has old cloth covered rubber wiring where the black as turned to a dark gray and the white has gotten dirty to the color of a dark gray.
Amen on the pen-style voltage detector comment. Mine doesn't usually give false positives, but it will usually light up and beep anytime I'm near a live box, regardless of whether I'm near the hot or ground wire... Definitely not something to be depended on...
...AFTER YOU HAVE VERIFIED WHICH IS WHICH WITH A VOLTMETER...
No kibbles for you either. If the entire house is 2-wire, you need to run a "reference" wire all the way to the panel. By the time you string 150 ft of wire to the panel, I've checked it with a CONTACT-type voltage pencil ($2 at HD), hooked up the fan, had a couple beers and read several more amusing threads on the forum.
DG/Builder
That $2 contact tester is just an NE-2 bulb and small resistor.And it needs a reference also to get GOOD information.Yes you can often get to to flicker if you hold one end tocuh a hot. But then again it mgiht not. And that is not clear enough to explain to someone over the internet that does not understand the difference.And that is if it was properly wired in the first place and not a switched neutral.No, I would rather tell him how to determine that correct wires and not have to worry about him doing it wrong and killing himself.
All right Bill, it looks like the problem should be solved for the OP.
Just to be the devil's advocate--- does it matter how the fan is connected? You got a PSC or shaded pole motor that doesn't care. Assuming his fan doesn't have a light kit, I can't see a problem.
Feel free to put me on bread and water as long as I can bring my own brown whiskey.
You are right the motor does not care at all.In fact no appliance or device cares.Where this comes in is the safety of people using it.One example is the if the unit has lights. And if it was misswired then the shell of the socket would be hot. And that can be touched when changing a bulb.
ya done googleing yet??????????Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
87 comes to mind...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
One example is the if the unit has lights. And if it was misswired then the shell of the socket would be hot. And that can be touched when changing a bulb.
No need to touch. I once saw a HO go to change a bulb in a fixture that had a metal shell tight around the socket. As he put the bulb in, the threaded part of the bulb touched both the thread on the socket and the shell outside the socket somehow. Bulb blew up spectacularly in his hand. He was alright but a little moist around the britches and shaking for a while.
DG/builder
As I stated in my first post that I was probably going to stick my foot in my mouth when asking since it's AC does it really matter.
I didn't want to stick both feet in -------- so the motor doesn't care but the lights do.
About 80% of the light fixtures I have installed have 2 white wires with no tag saying hot or neutral.
Things that make you go ---------hhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmm"There are about 550000000 firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is...........How do we arm the other eleven?" Yuri Orlov<!----><!----><!---->
About 80% of the light fixtures I have installed have 2 white wires with no tag saying hot or neutral.
color coded...
BRASS / BLACK... hot
SILVER / WHITE... nuetral
GREEN... Bond
trace out what you don't know fer certain...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Edited 3/19/2006 11:51 am by IMERC
That sounds like miss wired swtich leg.You have the incoming hot and neutral.Then the cable to the switch. For a switch leg the white is SUPPOSE to be remarked (typically black or red tape or a marker) and it is SUPPOSE to the connected to the hot. The black then is the swtiched leg.So you are always connecting black to hot and white to neutral on the actual fixture.But if the switch leg connects are reversed and the white is not remarked then you end up with the confusion that you have.
Hey Bill, don't leave home without it. ;-)
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/itemDetailsRender.shtml?xi=xi&ItemId=1613580847&ccitem=
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
LOL
I have 3 or 4 of those + 2 or 3 DMM have some really old 2 prong ones witha light aswell.
Also have a scilascope too.
I have to go back to the question to Hartman & see if I worded ity correctly
The light fixture has two white wires.
I'm not worried bout the J box I can always tell which one is hot by touching it & my wife at the same time.
edit----- insert oscilloscope man my tyuping sux
"There are about 550000000 firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is...........How do we arm the other eleven?" Yuri Orlov<!----><!----><!---->
Edited 3/19/2006 9:49 pm ET by plumbbill
I've installed several chandeliers recently where the wire is brown and like a cord. It exits the top of the changelier and weaves through the chain upward to the box.Apparently either wire can be the "hot".^^^^^^
Split the wires. One wire is smooth. The other has a darn near invisible rib moulded into it (moulded onto the insulation that is). The ribbed wire is neutral (at least if it's made right).
Failing that, look for the Swiss wire.. The Swiss wire is neutral . . . . ;-)
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
Edited 3/19/2006 8:59 pm ET by philarenewal
Edited 3/19/2006 9:02 pm ET by philarenewal
Thank you - I learn something new here everyday^^^^^^
The 2-wire neon tester works by holding one end in your hand and touching the other end to the wire, it uses your "body" as a reference point. Perfectly. Everytime. I have used it for checking K&T wiring for years and have never had an error. Threw out my noncontact pen tester after I blew up my Linemans pliers.
Correct you do not need a ground condutor for a GFI to work, a GFI device works by measuring amp flow out and back across the Hot/Neutral wires.
If you reverse the hot and neutral wire on a GFI receptacle, the test/reset will not function properly, thereby telling you that the wires are reversed!
PS you owe maddog3 a pallet of kibble ;-)
Edited 3/19/2006 7:55 pm ET by Bigman
"If you reverse the hot and neutral wire on a GFI receptacle, the test/reset will not function properly, thereby telling you that the wires are reversed!"No, it will work just the same.What is in the GFCI that knows the difference? Note that the links that I posted have schmetics of the interals."PS you owe maddog3 a pallet of kibble ;-)"For for? MD3 and I did not have a kibble thing going. And what did I say that should get him kibble?
Bullsh*t, run down to your local Big Box and buy a GFI and try it, I dont care what your interpretation of the schematic is, the test and reset will not work, this is a common mistake made by homeowners that we have been called to fix.
PS the kibble part was a joke.
checked the mail today...
no pallet of Nutro...
still holding my breath...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Hope you have big lungs.Maxwell the mut liberated the last of the kibble, not to mention an last of the banna bread from the Girl Scout bake sale.And I am saving my centavos to buy a GFCI to show that Bigman is wrong.After I do that maybe you can talk Bigman out of some.But I don't think that you deserve any."a cheap digital meter will tell you the polarity with a negative sign in the display...no polarity sign usually means the red lead of the meter is connected to hot..how ever if you read the manual for the meter there will be no doubt."A. your Fluke is not a CHEAP digital meter.B. Per your instructions I read the manual on Fluke and it did not mention that it could indicate polarity on an AC signal.
that's Nutro and not Kibbles...
Flea Bait has to go 1st rate here....
open the bond on the GFI... It won't operate...
A. Grant you ... that Fluke is not cheap
B. Polarity does show... (lead indicated as hot)....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"And I am saving my centavos to buy a GFCI to show that Bigman is wrong."
Keep your money, give me a shipping address and I will send you 3-GFI's out of stock, all manufactured by different companies, so that a little bookworm expert like yourself can see that you are wrong.
PS, Bill when are you going to fill out your profile anyways??????????????
My trade experience?, http://www.issalarms.com/about.asp
Edited 3/20/2006 5:54 pm ET by Bigman
Edited 3/20/2006 5:59 pm ET by Bigman
Edited 3/20/2006 6:01 pm ET by Bigman
I see that yer makin as many friends as me."There are about 550000000 firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is...........How do we arm the other eleven?" Yuri Orlov<!----><!----><!---->
just select ones...
this is good...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
have you upset someone???
let's hope so...
it's good fer the flip side to everything...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I'll plead the 5th"There are about 550000000 firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is...........How do we arm the other eleven?" Yuri Orlov<!----><!----><!---->
is that the 5th by Jack....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I 'm pretty sure I could get somone upset by replying a certain way to this
From:
splintergroupie <!----><!---->
Mar-20 11:08 pm
To:
plumbbill <!----><!---->
(14 of 15)
71278.14 in reply to 71278.11
<<But make sure yer hose is connected in the winter>>
I believe yer meant to say DIS-connected, did yer not?
Speaking of dissing, what exactly is it that you like to see shaved? I may fit the [plumb]bill or i may.
"There are about 550000000 firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is...........How do we arm the other eleven?" Yuri Orlov<!----><!----><!---->
I saw that and figured that it sumbuddy else's turn to have fun....
ROAR!!!!Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I thought thats why they had hair on em...............................
To hide the hook;)
Test proceedure;CONNECTIONS
A: Connect power source Hot to GFCI Hot, Neutral to Neutral, and EGC
B: Connect power source Hot to GFCI Hot, Neutral to Neutral, NO EGC
C: Connect power source Hot to GFCI Neutral, Power Neutral to GFCI Hot, and EGC.
D: Connect power source Hot to GFCI Neutral, Power Neutral to GFCI Hot, NO EGC.TEST ACTIONS - monitor both GFCI buttons and test lamp plugged into GFCI
1: Verify test button will trip and unit will reset.
2: Verify unit will trip with simulated fault (10k resistor) from GFCI receptacle HOT to EGC and will reset.
3: Verify unit will trip with simulated fault from GFCI receptacle neutral to supply HOT and will reset.UUT #1 Leviton GFCI RFS, est age 1992, before the 2003 upgrade of GFCI requirements.A.1 - passed
A.2 - passed
A.3 - passed
B.1 - passed
B.2 - passed
B.3 - passed
C.1 - passed
C.2 - passed
C.3 - passed
D.1 - passed
D.2 - passed
D.3 - passedUUT #2 Cooper XGF20V
NS from Lowes. The box has "Meets New UL943 Requiremnts" and the side of the box has "New Key Safety feautre: Detects initial LINE/LOAD miswiring or failure of GFCI electronis, and prevents RESET of unit if either occurs."This SOUNDS like the requirements for the new (July 28, 06) version of UL 942. However I tested the unit and with the load/line reversed the faceplate is still hot. But this is what UL says " GFCI will deny power to the receptacle face if it is miswired."So I have emailed Cooper to see if this is a "new" version or not.A.1 - passed
A.2 - passed
A.3 - passed
B.1 - passed
B.2 - passed
B.3 - passed
C.1 - passed
C.2 - passed
C.3 - passed
D.1 - passed
D.2 - passed
D.3 - passedFrom this it is clear thatA) The GFCI will work out a ground connection.B) The GFCI work the same with hot and neutral reversed as it does with them wired normally.
I was up at Cooper HQ and by wild conincidence, saw this email on a secretary's computer screen about to be sent to you. You know anything about it?
"Do NOT be alarmed when helicopters arrive at your home. They have NOT been sent by Cooper to get you. To the contrary, Cooper is very appreciative of your testing and verification that its product does not meet the new UL standards. The men in the helicopters will not harm you; they will arrive shortly to 'help' you in your verification procedures."
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
was there anything in that note about his new lab coat?????Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Hi guys,The new GFCI will not trip with a low cost three light and button tester when it is not grounded, because the tester shorts to the ground. No ground, no short. The test button on the GFCI device will still work to trip the GFCI. Remember the device mounting screws normally provide the ground in homes without an EGW as long as they are run in metal conduit.I think that is where the confusion started.Kirk
> as long as they are run in metal conduit.Which eliminates easily half the homes in the US.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
way more than half...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I have found that with an open ground or the nutral feeding back to ground the GFI WILL NOT WORK....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Define not work? One of the salient points of a GFCI is to use them where there is not an EGC so to provide some protection of electric shock. So I am not sure they have developed them to waive that ability. Perhaps you have a defective model or maybe a new one I haven't seen?Also, I agree that it is possible that if you back feed to the ground it may not work, but haven't tried that.Kirk
I think by "not work" he means the plug-in tester doesn't work.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
open ground won't reset...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Just to clarify things.The "newer" GFCI's (ones meeting the 2003 UL spec) have mechanical release on the test buttons. And if you press the test button without power on the GFCI it will trip. And they also require power to reset it.I know that is how the Cooper that I just tested works and from reading Leviton description of the features of theirs I am guessing that it works the same.And the also ship them in the tripped state. So if the GFCI is wired backwards (ie, input the LOAD terminals and Downstreadm to the LINE) the downstream receptacles won't have any power and the unit can't be reset.And if it is wired correct and reset and then either the Hot or the Neutral (grounded conductor) is removed then it will "self test", not by the electronics sensing the simulated fault current, but by the mechnaical action of the reset button tripping the latching relay. And since it does not have power then it can be reset.By the way I also tested this using an external 10k resistor from GFCI receptacle hot to EGC and without the neutral connected . It would not trip as it did not have power to operate.I did this test because I saw this comment on Levitons GFCI's and suspected that it was a mechical trip and not electronic."GFCI cannot be reset if neutral is not present. It can be tripped with TEST button under this condition"
I see were we are now...
to me, not being able to reset or test or if the GFI does not trip as required it is a non-fuctioning unit... the why to be reasoned and taken care of....
trade ya truck load of Kibbles fer a truck load of Nutro...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
IMERC ,I will test one of mine tomorrow and let you know what I find out. I put grounds on all mine as a matter of course, grounding to the box if nowhere eles.Kirk
make sure it's a new generationLife is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
where did you come up with that number concoction you use??????Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I got a quick and rather detailed answer from Cooper.The current Cooper Wiring Devices "XGF" device meets the 2003 UL 943
requirements, but does not meet all of the functionality outlined in the 2006 UL 943 Standard. Wiring device manufacturers have until July 28, 2006 to comply with this latest UL revision. Our new devices will have a "VGF" numbering nomenclature, and will be made available as required. They will cost more, due to these mandated enhancements.
# End of Life Provision: when a GFCI receptacle is incapable of
passing its internal test function (it can no longer provide ground
fault protection) it will either a) render itself incapable of
delivering power, or b) indicate by visual or audible means that the
device must be replaced. The current "XGF" device meets this requirement.# Reverse Line-Load Miswire: a GFCI will deny power to the receptacle
face if it is miswired. The current "XGF" device does not meet this requirement.# I have tested a new unit just purchased from Lowes. The package
states "Meets NEW UL943 Requirements" and also on the side of the
box; This packaging scheme was established in 2002, with no knowledge or
anticipation of another UL standard change in such close proximity. It is referring to 2003 UL 943 standard compliance, however.# If these are not new version how will the new versions be labeled? The new "VGF" series will indicate on the packaging that it conforms to 2006 UL 943 standard requirements.Reading the cutsheet copy on the Levitons I appears that there status is very similar.
Edited 3/23/2006 11:36 am by BillHartmann
yeah but........................those are just facts
...someday when I find the energy, I will once again conduct my own battery of tests.
.
.
.
'Wer ist jetzt der Idiot?'
just needs some powdered graphite is all.
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
you developing a plan "C"??????Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Couldn't find anything about a lab coat, but did see a pic. of Bill at age 8.
This is Bill at age 8 demonstrating a portion of his Ph.D. thesis on gravitational properties of forks and magnetic properties of proportional soda/ice mixtures. He went on to his post doc. at age 9, but they didn't have photos.
View Image
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
Actually that picture in the tavern of someone (Sphere?) sticking something in a receptacle is closer to the truth.
Bill...
G80104 will be here Saturday and before we split fer fishing and skiing fer the weekend he can be my witness..Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
don't knock Bill to hard.. that is one learned / smart man in all maters but this one...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
>>that is one learned / smart man in all maters but this one...
Better hope he is off on this one 'cause I hear there are truckloads of kibble riding on it by now.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
no worries....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
the Kibble part is serious business here..Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
The problem I have is that the tester will many times light (especially with K&T) when the wire is totally disconnected. This is why I prefer an incandescent test lamp for this specific job -- much less chance for confusion.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
dats telling 'em....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Bill ... ditch that tick tester that reads low volts and ya won't get so many false reading.. get one that starts reading at 75-90 volts or so...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Basically, you run a wire to a known good ground, and then check the voltage between your possible "hot" to the ground. Given the oddities of K&T in particular, the best "voltage monitor" to use (short of a "wiggy") is an incandescent lamp. If you put the wire between ground and your wannabe "hot" (and turn on the wall switch), the light should light.
Of course, this involves some exposed live wires, so be careful, and keep small kids and large dogs out of the area. Also be aware that this will trip the GFCI if you have a GFCI breaker on the circuit.
happy?
Use a standard cheap old style circuit tester, 2 lead type Yellow bulb indicator. Now Ops let me get my ear plugs in first. this was a great little trick that has served me oh so well over time.
Hold one lead- take the other lead and make contact on a wire Look for low glow of bulb, none go to other wire do the same.
As a first test to see what I'm talking about- go to a live outlet and do the same to each side of the receptacle. Hot side shows the faint light of Juice. Wow was that great or what ? OK beat me up now, I'm ready.
those are the NE-42 style lamps..Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
If you hold one lead and "take" the other lead, where do you hold the bulb...in your mouth maybe?
View Image
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
Y'know, this might be one of those "if you have to ask . . . ."
Do you happen to have any knowledgable friends who can actually show you how to do this? Do you have an electrician friend who can install a GFCI breaker for you 'cause you have no ground at the fixture?
This ain't exactly rocket science, but then again, that's one reason why "if you have to ask . . . ."
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
how many leads in the box???????????
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
You should have some understanding of electricity before working with live circuits. With a voltmeter, you can find a grounded plumbing fixture by attaching one lead to the fixture, use the other lead to probe a nearby receptacle. Having found a good ground, use a long conductor (like an extension cord) to connect your meter between the plumbing fixture and the wires you want to probe. When you probe a hot wire, you'll see it on the meter. An easier method: if you can determine with your meter that a grounded receptacle is truly grounded, you can use the extension cord plugged into the receptacle. Connect the meter to the round grounding hole in the extension cord and probe for a hot wire with the other meter lead.