I have a difficult lake-side construction site with no road access, and all material and equipment will have to come across the lake by barge. There is ready road access on the other side (I’ll call this the “garage side”) where the barge can be loaded.
My big question is what will be the best way to get material off the barge onto the site? Here’s my thinking so far:
1. Stage material delivery at the garage side so that it can be dropped right onto the barge with the delivery truck’s crane.
2. Motor across the lake
3. Move material from the barge to the construction with a small crane
But the trick is going to be getting the small crane to the construction site (it will need to go across on the barge), stabilizing/anchoring it on site, and then using it to maximum effectiveness. Reach from crane base to barge would be about 80′, and max reach from crane base to the building about 55′.
This is a 1500 sq foot house with some heavy beams (seven end gable trusses are post-and-beam), and most of the roof and walls are StructureWall SIPs (120 lbs each).
Is the crane idea workable at all? Or is man-labor going to be more cost-effective?
Thanks in advance for your input.
Replies
What's the time frame of the schedule & how much shore damage is allowable?
80' isn't far for a squirt boom crane, but lifting that crane 80' is another story.
Have you thought about temporary pontoon docks to dolly the material from the barge to the shore.
"Why do you hurt me when I do bad things to you?" My youngest son to his older brother
Excavation starts in August or September (need to get a small excavator across on the same barge).The site will certainly get pretty torn up because of the excavation, but the shore (and lake) needs to be kept mostly undisturbed, as the site is within the Adirondack Park (in NY) and is governed by the rules of the APA.Getting any sort of crane into position is going to be a bear unless it's got its own locomotion, but that makes it that much heavier.Note that when I say "barge" I am picturing either a single pontoon boat, or possibly four lashed together with a platform on top. This is not a huge lake, and any barges or pontoon boats will have to be brought in for the job by way of the state boat launching site.Regarding pontoon docks, I am more thinking of a temporary (and heavy duty) dock from timbers.
It sounds like you plan on building the "barge" yourself. Any idea how much flotation you'll need to carry the excavator with some reasonable margin of safety? I would be reluctant to put an expensive piece of machinery on a homemade raft, so you probably need an engineer to design the barge.
I would check out the helicopter as others have suggested. If all materials can be assembled at the same time, so you only need the copter once, that should be more cost effective than most alternatives, although I don't know if you'll find one that will carry an excavator.
I wish I had a photo, but in Tenant's Harbor Maine, I saw a huge amphibious craft, sort of like a Duck, only much bigger (wheels were at least 10 feet high), that was used for island construction.
What's a "squirt boom crane"? I know you have way more experience than I on commercial job sites.
My thought was that 80' was too much of a reach for any small crane. At work the framers use boom trucks - which are more or less the smallest crane (that I have seen) to set trusses, but I'm sure they have no where that reach. Even still I'd estimate the weight of a boom truck and 5 tons. That's a lot of weight to be putting on some kind of a rigged up barge. Even a small crane is a lot heavier than that... I woulda thought a Lull (or similar) telehandler which is what we use on multifamily because you can drive it with a load on it but I'd guess those are even heavier than the boom truck.
I'd guess a rental of anything like that might be around $10k or 15k or more for a month. Sounds like a job for strong backs to me... $15k can buy quite a bit of labor. Besides, I doubt that a rental company's insurance would allow a piece of equipment to be put on other than a real barge.
Hydraulic telescoping crane.
I like the helicopter idea best I think.
"Why do you hurt me when I do bad things to you?" My youngest son to his older brother
I may be misreading your situation but I don't think you will be helped by a crane unless you can get the crane next to the house or you can get a very, very large crane on the barge.
Sounds like a fun project (if I was young).
This sounds like a good job for 6 teenage laborers.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
How high is the house foundation to be above the lake?
you need a old miltary duck boat/truck
You might consider using a helicopter. The A/C guys on the Target remodel I worked on used this tactic instead of a crane. They can precisely drop in your beams, etc. At least check them out.
~Peter
I'm thinking the same. In the context of what is being proposed here this could be the most efficient and effective.
Ditto the helicopter. Probably won't need to load anything onto the barge with them. Setting beams with them will be a hair raising event, though. What you going to do for concrete on the island? Might be able to get them to sling it over for you.
Now that is an interesting thought. I hadn't yet solved the problem of getting the concrete over there. So far I have been resigned to hauling bags of readimix across on the barge and using a portable mixer (or several of them) to mix concrete for the foundation walls and basement floor.The helicopter idea is mostly going to hinge on cost. But for the foundation, another advantage may be that it allows for factory-mixed concrete for the site, rather than concrete mixed on-site.
Pete was that remodel one of those fast track reverse bid jobs?
"Why do you hurt me when I do bad things to you?" My youngest son to his older brother
"Peter, was that remodel one of those fast track reverse bid jobs?"
I don't know what a reverse bid job is.It took about 6 months. They must have spent a million moving the escalators about 50'.There didn't seem to be any time pressure. I'm old and wise enough to avoid those hurry up, get overtime, operations. They did that on the second Target job with the Starbucks. We got it done in quick time, turned it over and then they spent about a month with delays training their staff, etc. Never did get a free cup of coffee.
I'm glad people liked the helocopter idea. At least get some bids.
~Peter, Sleep consultant to FHB
Target does a standard remodel every ten years.
Skanska USA had a contract that was somewhere close to 100 million to do so many stores. They put the sub bids up online & they started with a specific # & you would bid down in 7,000 dollar increments.
They had the schedule down to shifts, it was a nightmare, they would demo out an area, I would be lining up saw cutting while there was a guy laying out for the new track & studs--- they would put down the track over the ditch while we were digging.
Made money for the company, but really don't want to go do another one.
"Why do you hurt me when I do bad things to you?" My youngest son to his older brother
The top of the foundation will be no more than 10' above the lake.
Sounds like a logistical Rubik's Cube dude. As long as you're getting paid right, it sounds like a blast. Wouldn't want to be the guy bidding it myself though.
Anyway... if it helps any.... most telehandlers weigh around 20,000lbs.... not bad when you think about it. Rentals are usually around $1200-$1500/month. Many of them have a reach around 42' but I believe 55'ers can be had. Personally, I'd be finding a way to get a telehandler over there quick. Probably be the most versatile of all options mentioned. Maybe not the best at any one given task you've got there, but versatile none-the-less. Loading, unloading the barge. Moving material around. Setting trusses. Get a bucket for it and use it for moving that concrete from the mixer to the forms.
>> Rentals are usually around $1200-$1500/month. << Wow! Looks like I was way wrong about that one.
what about a lull (renting one)
"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."
Bozini Latini
http://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
gb62
Couldn't you drive a pile of material over there now?
Ron
That's what I was thinking.
It's winter, drive your materials across the lake while its frozen.
thats what you need, "The Ice Road Truckers"
As far as driving the material over this winter, there really isn't enough space to store a lot of material at the site. Not to mention the difficulty of keeping the material dry.
I'm leaning towards barge rental. I can transport the excavator I need, a crane if I decide to go that route (instead of man-labor), and all the material no problem.
Can anyone point me towards barge rental firms? Poseidon Barge has some big ones that can be lashed together to make huge barges. I think I need a couple of smaller ones.
http://www.poseidonbarge.com/p1sviewer/images/potomac.jpg
can you get those barges on your lake?
no
GB62
Sounds like my building site.. For pictures of my place go to 85891.1 or 94941.1
The concrete is an easy answer, (pump truck) the timbers can best be moved with a telehandler, the barge can be unloaded with a telehandler. and you'll find massive use of the telehandler during the whole building project..(get a work platform with it)
that sized project a 642 will work (6000# 42 feet reach) add a jib for another 12 feet. If the plans are something I can't envision you might use a 1056. 10,000 pound capacity 56 feet of reach plus 12 feet for a total of 68 feet. you may want two differant telehandlers one on the lake side and one on the road side use the 1056 first and do all that you can do with it and then finish from the lake side. proper advance planning might elimanate most of the need of the lakeside telehandler.
there are some tricks I can tell you about how to do this efficently, just ask..
Any barge capable of handling a sizeable load should also be able to handle the telehandler.. the only issue is unloading the telehandler. Don't worry they will wade thru some pretty deep water and climb some really steep slippery slopes. Cranes on the other hand are pretty worthless once off the beaten path..
on a normal site telehandlers will save about 20% of the time required plus about about 20% of the personal required.. (one in five guys) here I suspect it will be much more..
Hi frenchy,Looked at your pics of your house. Very nice!That lake that I mentioned is in between the garage (and the mixer truck) and the site. All 1/2 mile of it. So a pump truck isn't going to help me much. I need to get the concrete over there from the concrete mixer (hence the barge), I need some kind of concrete container on the barge, and I need some sort of pump at the site to push the concrete from the container on the barge to the forms. And this has to all be done before the concrete starts to set (a cool fall day is planned).Thanks for the telehandler tip. As you suggest, I am picturing the telehandler unloading material directly from barge to the building. And no or very little material stored on the ground on site.I have a feeling that a bucket on the end of the telehandler will be useful to help the (small) excavator digging the foundation. And I like your platform suggestion.- gbEdited 1/1/2008 2:52 pm ET by gb62
Edited 1/1/2008 2:53 pm ET by gb62
gb62
I've seen some giant pump trucks capable of really long pumps.. but lacking that and assuming no other easy solution you might buy a bizzilion bags of ready mix and rent a few mixers. Using the telehandler you could move stuff to where it would be needed on pallets so nobodies back would be broken doing this.. there are actually attachments made to turn the telehandler into a concrete pourer (ICF forms?)
I had the same sort of problem on my site.. I used the 1056 and jib to station most of the stuff for the front and was able to slide it easily in place since no lifting was required..
I did use the 642 in the front but had major access problems because my yard wwas only 50 feet wide and the house took up all but 4 feet on each side.. (telehandlers are 8 feet wide)..
If looking for brands the Ingersol Rand is far and away the most stable.. plus that thing will actually lift 9000 pounds even though it's only rated for 6000 pounds..
I have 17+ years experiance selling/renting/leasing them but with the down turn in the industry I was fired before labor day. So I don't owe anybody any allegance. Lull And Sky track are among the most unstable. Cat is the worst. (I sold Cat's for over 7 1/2 years and Lulls plus three years with Gehl).
If it were me, I'd schedule this project for the winter. Lay out some blankets where the foundation is to be and wait for the lake to freeze. If you plan on starting in September what's another 90 days? You should be able to get a small structure up while the lake is frozen. Easy access for all the heavy materials.
How much do the types of machines you are talking about rent for?
Matt
Rates have been plumiting so I'm going to be general They vary all across the country and right now a lot of those rates are being undercut by carpenters who are renting out their equipment at lower rates.
6000# around $1500 month
8000# around $1800 month
10,000# around $2500 month.
there are lots of cavots involved.. rates on 6000# machines may actually be from around $1200 a month to $2300 and beyond.. You walk into the rental places and it's going to be beyond.. you talk to a dealer and it will be towards the lower end and carpenters will likely rent lowest of all. Rental houses and dealerships will charge you for insurance that doesn't really cover anything (Contact your own insurance agent, typically they should write a complete binder for around $75 a month).. Some dealerships will waive the insurance requirement if you provide them a copy listing them as loss-payee within 24 hours (fax or e-mail is usually acceptable) there will be a delivery and pickup charge, typically we would deliver in the metro area for under $100 and pick up for the same.. A month may be 28 days (most rental houses), 30 days or an actual calender month. Your best deals are from the longest term rental period you believe you will need it.. If you need it less than a month it's usually better to rent it for a month than 3 weeks.. the rates typically are 3 days is a week, 3 weeks are a month , 3 months go in and deal!
Some dealerships charge for clean up some don't. Most rental houses do and it can be a really stiff charge.. return it full of fuel (it will be delivered full).. if they buy the fuel you will pay a premium for the fuel but also a mechanics time to refuel it.. At shop rates of about $100.00 per hour.
Your best deal is with dealerships, some of them would apply some or all of the rent towards the purchase.. the devil is in the details.. Get the purchase price up front and how much of the rent applies..
Whatever you do avoid equipment that has been used by masons!!!!! They really beat up equipment. If you see cement on it walk away! Do not rent or buy any imported brands like Caterpillar, John Deere, & JCB(made in England) The small under 6000# forklifts by anybody (except Gehl) Older Skytracks (pre 1995) and Lulls are OK but newer ones are very high maintinace and extremely unstable .. Gehls are pretty decent within limits as are Ingersol Rands..which in my experiance tend to be the most stable and best built forklifts on the market..
Edited 1/1/2008 7:03 pm ET by frenchy
Thanks for the info Frenchy. Very informative.