I Think Im crazy, but we are getting readt to rebuild and add on to a 1902 classic with cobblestone found. in good shape. I’m thinking of hiring out/ digging myself/ finiding machine to dig out about 700 sf of dirt beneath house, shore up, pour new footings and straighten out old floor.
Anybody done it before? I’m dreaming of a 30″ wide low-profile skid steer with 2 yard bucket that I can dump onto a conveyor belt and shoot outside into yard.
I know it’s A LOT OF WORK and those of you who have done it will say you will never do it again , but think of the finished space!!!!
PS this house is being turned for profit- clients here like finished basements in this part of town (no water problems to worry about in Colorado)
Any input helpful-
Torey
Replies
Someone may come up with the link for you. There was a thread a while ago from someone who did this, apparently all you need are a few 4x4s to hold everything up, and a measure of luck. ;)
There was a thread a while ago from someone who did this
Are you thinking of the one where the guy wanted to dig out starting in his own stairwell, and then under the existing slab-on-grade?Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Boss Hogg has a few pictures where a neighbor was having this done.But I think that he is think of DJMerc's where he was digging out under an addition that had been done on crawlspace and everyone was saying that it was going to colapse on him.
where he was digging out under an addition that had been done on crawlspace and everyone was saying that it was going to colapse on him.
Yeah, I remember that one.
Wasn't there pictures of the "after"?
Wasn't there "walk out" access, too, to make it simpler--that's what I want to remember.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
more like six yards of 8"x8"s
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4x4's?-Chief of all sinners
the 4x4 does bother me, its the fact he welding on a gas tank that scared me.
It's just like in the 'hood'....
some people's life is worth less than others... or at least they act that way :-) Matt
to dig out about 700 sf of dirt beneath house
It's probably possible.
My calculator makes 700 sf 8'-0" deep out to be 5600 c.f., or 207 cubic yards of material (14-15 truck-fulls).
The question I have is, do you have machine-wide access to the proposed basement space?
You take the ROPS off an "orchard height" kubbota with a FEL, and it's still going to be around 6-7' wide (and most of 4' tall). So, you'll either have to go through the floor, or dig a pretty big "bullkhead" opening to get under there, I'm thinking.
Doesn't mean it can't be done, just that I'm not imagining any good ways off the top of my head.
Case and BobCat both make a very small machine... as in really little...
either'll fit down a commercial stair case and go through a 4/0-7 door with room to spare......
don't bother asking how I know about the stair case...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Case and BobCat both make a very small machine
Oh yeah, the "walk behinds." Seems like I only see landscapers usingthem around here. ("¿ROPS, que ess el 'ROPS' ?")
don't bother asking how I know about the stair case
I know better than to ask without at least a full drink available <g>*
*No, for those of you who do not know, IMERC's stories are not long and tedious, neither are they sere and arid--I just know that I need to keep my whistle wet; or that I'm 'driven' to drink, if only in comisseration.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
no not a wlk behind but a minature skid loader..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
It can be done... in the right circumstance... with the right plan... and with the right tools.
First... you need to get a REALLY good engineer to advise you. One that has done this type of work before.
Generic information could be very dangerous... as each project of this type has many nuances and variations. And those differences will make or break (literally) the project.
You indicate a need to straighten up the floor and shore the thing up... so the lifting and jacking is needed anyway. But to jack a house for a small replacement of footing... and digging a new basement.. are two totally different things.
FWIW, I helped, in a small way, dig out a crawl for a basement project (1/2 basement - 1/2 crawl) and the engineer developed plans that were both safe and MUCH more cost effective than what my original plan was. It was worth every single penney we paid him to develop the plan, supervise the construction, and assure that the plan changes (inevitable) met muster.
Edited 3/11/2005 1:08 pm ET by Rich from Columbus
How much room do you have between the house and the lot lines? If there's enough, perhaps a house mover could lift the building on long enough pieces of steel that the cribbing could be outboard of the house and a safe distance from the excavation.
Also consider having an industrial fan or two to blow the machine's exhaust away from the operator.
Another approach might be to build the basement one wall at a time, trenching alongside the existing house. When you have all four basement walls done, then use a vacuum excavator to dig out the inside.
-- J.S.
Yes it can be done. I have a old 1830's timber frame farmhouse that only had a rumble stone foundation and very tight dirt crawl space. Damp, cold and smelly!!
In 1998 our area township got a HUD grant to bring homes up to modern standards. The government provided low interest loans to folks in my income bracket. I decided this was my only opportunity to get a full cellar under my house. I went for it.
The end product was a great dry, clean and bright cellar. The full cellar added 900 sq ft to my house and it’s now a wonderful home.
Now the nitty gritty. It was the summer from hell that lasted forever!! The project started June 28th with final completion and installation of a new furnace Thanksgiving weekend.
The farmhouse has a main two story timer frame with a single story addition off the main house.
The project required three different contractors. The first crew came in with three 40' long, 12" thick, I beams that they slide under the two story main house. They jacked up the house of the stone foundation about a inch.
Than the excavator contractor started. He used a small bulldozer with scoop/claw shovel. He began by excavating a long ramp which began about 40-50' away from the house. The ramp went down under the house as he excavated. He’d come in, grab a shovel full of earth and back up the ramp. Eventually he could get far enough under the building to where he could spin around and come up in a forward direction. Because of the diesel smoke, he’d have to hold his breath as long as possible while under the building. The main house excavation took about three days.
After the first excavation was completed, the first crew returned, and placed massive cribbing beams under the main house. They than lowered that section of the house onto the cribbing and removed the I beams. They than placed the I beams under the one story addition and the above process was repeated.
Once the whole house was supported by cribbing, it was literally floating 12' in the air!! Needless to say, my wife and kids fled early in the process and spent the summer at our camp. Once you expose the underbelly of a 168 year old house, you find lots of nasty surprises! Mainly rotted sills and joists. I spent my three week summer vacation, replacing or repairing the sills with new pressure treated material. Definitely not fun.
At this point it was the mason’s turn. He poured footers, and began laying block by first creating full corners for the cellar. The cellar was not a simple square but had a multitude of jigs and jogs.
He than began to fill in between the corners and added a bond beam at the 5' level. Block was laid two blocks short of the sill plate.
Once again the house was slightly cracked off the cribbing , and cribbing removed. The Masons returned. At this time interior and exterior drainage tiles were placed, and the below ground foundation sealed with waterproofing. While things were open, 12" of crushed stone was added to the cellar floor and a 6" mesh reinforced cement slab was poured. When the slab was hard, the masons returned and completed the final cement block work and added stucco to the above ground block.
We were now into October and finally had a new well pump and pressure tank installed.
The excavator returned and we could finally fill in the ramp hole, backfilled the foundation and remove the large mountain of earth that had been excavated from under my house.
Finally the week before Thanksgiving, new heat ductwork and furnace were installed!
Like I said, the SUMMER FROM HELL! Was it worth it? You bet! Would I do it again? In a heartbeat.
I say go for it, but be aware that it takes lots of people, good coordination between contractors, lots of $$$$$$$$ and extreme patience.
Here's the post I started where a neighbor dug a basement under their home:http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=37826.1In the end, I think they had a $40,000 basement under a $30,000 houes.
Self defense is a part of the law of nature; nor can it be denied the community, even against the king himself. [William Barclay]
That is a petty good summation. It is very expensive square footage. That is fine for restricted lots in cities or on the waterfromnt, but rarely worth it just for "space" elsewhere. For a resale intent like this house, it sounds like a hole in the ground to bury money in so nobody can fiond it again.
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Harry-
Thank you for your in depth reply. Reading your post I realized that I may just have enough room to lift house a bit and dig under-
I have a good engineer I work with who specializes in distressed structure. He would love to see me do this. I'm going to look into the walk-behind option, as there is enough room to place a large header and worik safely.
Thanks agian-
Torey
That was a pretty detailed report. Thanks. Aprox. what was the final cost?
Matt
This was a HUD funded project, with the bid process supervised by a HUD administrator. Bids were considerably less than I could have gotten by myself. My total cost came to about $16,000 with the cost of a new furnace, water pump and pressure tank on top off that. I don't remember the exact dollar amounts but they broke down approximately as follows:Masonry $8,000
House lifting $4500
Excavation, backfill and dirt removal $3500
That's dirt cheap!!! pun intended... I couldn't even build a regular basement for that SF price (with no house in the way). Especially the 3500 for dirt work. Around here, $3500 would get you 2 days (maybe) of work from a guy with heavy equipment.
Matt
Edited 3/14/2005 6:57 pm ET by DIRISHINME
Well apparently the old BT curmudgeons have a reasonable memory. I dug a basement under my house last winter. It was a long brutal winter, but now I have 1,000 sq ft of basement I didn't have before.
If you search the archives for Crawlspace Digout, you'll get the whole story. If you search for other posts by me (AXE52) in Photo Gallery, you'll see the project as it progresses (I moved on and put a 2nd story on).
And don't worry about all the nay sayers here that tell you to hire it out and you can't do it and blah, blah. It's simple math to make a house stand up and I did it while inserting a new basement. Many will say I got away with one, I say I'd do it again, just like I did, a million times and never once have a problem. Just plug in your brain and figure it out. You need to make sure you can step back and feel the energy surrounding the project. The energy on my project felt good and so I went for it and made it happen. One thing I will point out, I dug a partial basement and so 1/2 of my house stayed firmly on a foundation. So I had a first floor diaphragm working for me. If you are digging a complete basement, YOU WILL NEED PROPER CRIBBING AND SUPPORT. Not that you couldn't do that yourself, but all that cribbing gets expensive for one time use.
It's funny that one poster mentions all the nuances and details involved in such a project, yet many of the BT regulars crucified me from one picture. Oh well, tis the way BT works. Not a problem with me, I love it here. Thicken up that skin and get digging.
Alive and kicking -MERC.
Oh yeah, I should mention we ran a smallish bobcat under the house and jackhammered the rock hard soil out of there. Many, many yards of dirt, maybe 200+.
MERC.
I'm glaad to see you mention proper cribbing. Somehow, I missed that thread a couple years ago...http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=37632.1&=Keep+Reading%3E%3E#a35So far, I have only read the first fourty posts there. after seeing the first photos, I gasped, my stomach turned over at the thought that you would work and put people in under there, not even slaves from some third world country imported for the purpose. You were absolutely insane!
It is one thing to skate by on pure dumb luck, but to make recommendations to others to do it the same way is morally irresponsible. I feel like throwing the whole book at you, but I want to go back and read the whole thing first to see what all I'm missing and be fair to you. Don't want to just hit you with half the cast iron frying pan. Looks like you need the whole dang BONGGGG!
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Now wait a minute. This thread is going to get deleted because someone gave an opinion. Sucks but that's what it's turned into.
So till then we might as well all get on the same page.View ImageView Image
Don't know why it would get deleted. We can save somebodies life here.
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I guess I won't waste tiome writing all the myriad of things you did wrong sinceyou showed such a strong proclivity for ignoring good advice from others.I'll just add that I noticed the many warnings and concerns that others mentioned of how they were afraind that since you got lucky, others might think they could get away with it too, and that eventually someone would get killed due to your example. There is nothing morally ethical to excuse you recommending your methods to others. I do not believe that any experienced, knowing engineer went along with what you did there in that manner, and if you did have a series of twenty others walk through to look, I can gaurantee that if you thought they were approving of it, you just misunderstoood their sense of disbelief, and the tact they displayed in not deriding you on your own property, but you were to subject of many a coffee break guffaw after wards.
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Merc: Did you post an after picture? A before would be way cool too. Yours was quite an ambitious project, and the last few partial pics looked like things were coming out great.
Matt
"Well apparently the old BT curmudgeons have a reasonable memory."HEY!I resemble that remark <G>.Both the OLD & the CURMUDGEON part.
Helped pop do it in 1954 and did it again 8 years ago for my grandkids.
Pop's was about 25 yards carried out IN BUCKETS! over a few month period.
8 years ago was out a shallow ramp with wheelbarrow, about 35 yards total. Took 2 months digging about 1-1/2 hour per day. <none of this sissy bobcat stuff <G>>
Both cases, dug to within about 1-1/2 ft of existing footing that was 3 ft below grade, then poured 1-1/2 ft thick solid concrete berm with french drain at farthest out part of dig. Added permanent steel beams to support house structure where there had been posts in both cases.
Something it is nice to do once or twice by had to say you have done it, that's all. .
Edit PS: reread, the " 30" wide low-profile skid steer with 2 yard bucket " is a little of an oxymoron unless you can find some surplus tracked coal-mine equipment, as is 'shooting it out on a conveyor' unless you plan on big bucks for conveyor.
Edited 3/13/2005 12:03 am ET by JUNKHOUND
first - don't take any advice from DCMERC on this subject. He almost klilled himself and still has no idea how close he came.
The thread does have some good photos both of how to do it and how not to do it. You absoluteluy have to have lateral bracing to avoid topple, which he avoided. Stacked cribbing is the best way to handle that.
How high are you now? from ground level.
Let me hunt up some photos. See if you can get us one or two also...
The best way to do this is probably to get a hous emover to lit the house straight up for you. in some conditions, it can be cheaper to move it off site thirty feet or so and then back again, or even less expensive yet to pour the new foundation and move it straight over onto it. One move that way. definitely safeer, but it depends on the site you have.
#17 shows how we had the beams shoved under and once lifted had the cribbing under the house instead of longer steel with the cribbing exterior klike Dirshmi's photo in the other thread. The shorts legs are only there to force the replacement ( for rot) LVL beam into plave while working on it. Not to support the house. #13 gives you a better overall shot. #33 and #37 do a better jopb of showing how a pro stays safe with adequate support while he works with a structure overhead.
If you are lifting striaght up and setting straight down again, you just seat these cribbings several feet ourside the dig and use steel beams long enough to and stout enough to take'er up.
The sedcret to safe cribbings is that you use a level to set the sections, starting with the first one on base. one soft corner and rain could let a tall crib topple. When you use you rhydraulics to lift, immediately get a shim bnlock in next to it to hold a turn in case the jack backs off or tilts.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Torey, I just spent the weekend next to a guy that dug his basement. When he was a youngster, his Dad decided to put a basement in...so he had the kids dig it with a shovel. It kept them out of trouble.
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!