Sheetrock hangers arrived the other day and started hanging a seven unit condo we are building. 5/8 fire rock UL # 530 on 24” centers. I went in and made sure they were using glue. They assured me they were and showed me the gun some empty tubes and full tubes. I went back periodically making sure there were empty tubes and provided subsequent preaching. One of the things I noticed was that about 20% of their ceiling screws were driven too deep. They broke the paper and also I noticed a few spots where someone was nailing and busted the paper. Today three days later I went into a unit and noticed that there wasn’t any glue squeeze out on some edges that were still visible. This prompted me to climb a ladder and check a drop ceiling in one of the baths – No Glue. I called USG and they said that the UL installation instructions would dictate installation and that according to them the board required no glue. So what I came up with is from now on glue walls and ceiling, screws that break the paper will have to be re-screwed. And they will have to go back and re-screw where they had broken the paper on the already hung board. Is this a good solve? I didn’t want to make them tear down the drywall, one of the reasons is that I think some of it is glued but if the glue gun wasn’t handy it probably got skipped. But I also want a quality job. Do I have a big problem here?
I also caught the Tile man installing Cement board with dry wall screws. When I confronted him he got snippy and said he’d been doing it a long time and worked for us for five years and never got a call back. I said I’m not talking about five years I’m talking about fifty years. He went and bought the proper screws.
Met with the roofer this after noon because galvanized metal fascia and coping are wavy and wrinkled and installed with 6d sinkers. He said all he has to do is seal the nail head and they’ll be OK. The I showed him the poor workmanship. He said its such a big piece it can’t be installed cleanly. I said look at this one here it looks great. It’s installed properly. He said it all looked good to him. After this and a few more stonewalls I could see I was getting no where and left him standing on the scaffolding. Let the office handle this. He was a twenty year old kid. Didn’t even have enough experience to know what was and wasn’t acceptable. Can you believe a reputable company would send a young smart
out as their rep. Rough day
Edited 6/28/2005 7:17 pm ET by quicksilver
Replies
poor workmanship is a constant problem in our trades, most consumers are not knowledgable enough
i recently saw aa house maybe 15 years old where 12 ft floor joists were cut off for hvac, and were hanging in mid air
so we as a group have a bad reputation along with car mechanics, what do we do about it?
i do my best, always doing that "little extra" in my case adjusting cabinet doors or other minor repairs that take me 10 minutes
caulking is not a piece of trim
Rough day indeed Quicksilver!
I would be extremely upset if I had made a special trip, and special effort to ensure that the glue detail was being followed, then later found some not glued.
I'd also insist that all the fasteners be done correctly and that new fasteners replaced the improper ones.
I simply wouldn't authorize any pay for any substandard work and if they didn't fix it, we'd fix it at their expense. Of course, I'd give them every chance to do their own repairs.
Schedule a jobsite meeting with the owner/subcontractors. Stop talking to the field guys unless they are designated as foremen. Insist on a designated foreman. Develop relationships with the foreman, even if they are 20 years old.
Read How To Win Friends and Influence People. There are techniques that will get you what you desire.
blue
The dry wall subcontractor was there, he was the one I was talking to.The tile contractor was there, he was the one I was talking to.The kid was a partner, I am told, founders brother, founder is inactive at this point as far as I know. And you know I make it a point to negotiate. The hanger made a serious blunder. I made calls got my ducks in a row and negotiated a solve. This kid was a stone wall. Maybe I was just fed up at this point. But to not even admit an inkling of fault in the situation was too much. And the situation was literally staring us in the face. He was talking so much BS: caulk the nails and they'll be OK, then he tried to blame the substrate, cornice that I installed. I knew I had to walk or it would have just got worse.
Amen to all that and when you ask the smart sasss foreman "you want to get poaid, don't you? " Do it with a smile!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I doubt you are paying them by the hour. If you are not consider it then and I guarantee you they will fill your hearts content. If you won't pay the hour, then give them 30% more per piece and you'll probably still get a perfect job. Not every drywall screw is perfectly inserted..some do break the paper. As far as gluing, if that was the deal then they should do it.
It all comes down to money..everybody wants to make more!
I'm paying 1.90 a square foot to hang/finish 18' ceilings that's 91 dollars / sheet, and .85 cents a foot for the low ceilings. That's almost 40 dollars / sheet. They are making good money. I pay like a pro and I want pro work. That is besides the point although complaining a little about my day point of my post was if I will have problems with this hang in the future. It's not money here it's incompetence. Oh and I'm setting up their scaffold for them.
Edited 6/28/2005 9:32 pm ET by quicksilver
I don't mean to commandeer this thread but I have a quick question about drywall glue. As I understand it, when installing paper backed fiberglass batts -- with the paper facing the interior -- the paper ears of the batts should extend over and be stapled on the front of stud, rather than on the side of stud. Apparently, this practice eliminates a fire channel along the side of the stud. But this begs the question, if the paper extends over the front of the stud, this would make glue pointless. Thoughts about this dilemma?
Have never seen paper faced insulation run over the stud..it should be on the side..same with the plastic coated insulation.
Paper belongs on the side of the stud
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffen - I just got off the Owens Corning site. They say it can go either way. There was a write up that I had seen (FH?) which said it should go on the face of the stud because when the companies calculate heat loss and r-Values for the gov't, that's where they put it. Stapled on the sides, it allows some more air to move through. That part makes sense to me. I believe, but won't swear, that from a fire standpoint, they want it on the front too. Don
There are different ways of looking at it.Which makes best insulation
which makes best VB
Which makes for more resistance to flame spread
which is easier to installl
which conflicts with gluing SR on
which does archy or HO specify
which is better overall in my viewnot all of these agree, select your own priority if it is your job
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I respect your opinion. Mind if I ask why you prefer putting it inside the studs? Don
Because glueing the SR is goodBecause it gets the paper and staples out of the way of the SR so no fighting any lumpsBut keep in mind that I have not used FG batts for many years now, so it's acedamic. I eiether blow in chopped FG or spray FoamThe concern about batts stapl;ed inside causing convection currents is academic too. ANY FG batts will allow convection current. The stapled in side just increases it a bit.Stapling over the studs will make for a better VB, but when concerned about VB, I would use unfaced and staple plastic over the studs for a much better VB or place an inch of foam board over the studding, again on the interior.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Your paying very good money. Seems these boys are looking to make more from you with "haste makes waste". Try another crew and check out their references prior as I don't think that the current rockers care much about quality. Keep on searching until you find someone who appreciates the money you are paying and is willing to do the proper work.
Problem is the finisher is pretty good. But he doesn't really understand that there are a few aspects of hanging sheetrock that are important for longevity.
We use him, he subs the hang out. Its on him to make sure the hang is right. I told him he has to have the hang to my liking before I get paid. And there is a language barrier. Before anyone gets upset and starts calling me mein furor. I'll give an example. I saw that the sheets, a lot of them on the ceilings were screwed every sixteen inches. I knew that wasn't right, and personally preferred eight inches, but I called USG tech support ,which was very helpful, and they said that 12'' was OK. So rather then go force my way on them, I trust the USG people and agree to screws 12'' on center. They actually, everyone including the young roofer guy, changed their tune today. Must of been some bad kharma flying about. We're coming along OK. I'l post some more pic's in a couple of weeks. Check out, under the photo section, new construction in the city, for a peek pre rock.'
As another poster said you are paying for the glue and they should use it. Drywall glue holds the board the best, straightens framing irregularities and lessens screw/nail pops. It's the best method to drywall. You are very correct..not many care about the longevity aspects of drywall..gluing certainly helps in the long term and if your paying for it you should get it..and I don't mean an 1/8" bead either. It should be laid on thick!
Agreed. And they will be, and were. There gone now while we are finishing our frame punch on the front tower of our little big building. They will return hopefully July 11. If I can maintain that I'll be 3 weeks behind on a schedule projection of six months. Pretty good for a couple of nail banger and a mason thrown into the world of architects, engineers, designers, and changes, clients that make changes, changes, and more changes and more changes. If there was a way I could type that off into infinity I would. Sad thing is we work for the client. Nothing like tying my hand to my foot and saying, "Get 'er done".
Is this the same DW guy with the day labor problem?
If you don't mind me asking, what's the average project size for your company?
Ya I'm afraid this is the same guy. To his defense those who read my posts know him only from when he's on my #### list. He is the contractor, subs out the hang and does the finishing. When the job is done it always looks good. His point up is very good. The guy is from Peru (I say that only to point out that there is a language barrier) and a job this size is a little overwhelming I think for him bid-wise. Last year we finished a basement in the transition between bigger projects and when he bid it he looked around and said ah 2000$, or some number that he snatched out of thin air. We had a budget and I reined him in and we got the job done. On this one I went out of my way scaled out the square footage and did his estimate. Gave him a per board price up to eleven hundred board and after that its 90 for high ceiling and 45 for everything else after. I wanted him to be paid fairly, because I didn't want to have a nightmare on hand., Because I knew he could do the work, but I thought probably would have trouble with the estimate I helped him. Plus the number he snatch ed of thin air this time was about 10000 over what i agreed to: he aint shy. Some might think this is a little overboard, but a couple hours of my time was insuring a smooth run of it. On the other hand I noticed right away that it seemed like he was expecting me to do some of his supervisory duties. Which I told him I would not do his f-ing job and he better get his #### together, and I can't remember by the post your're referring to if I said I got a boom truck. I did, simply told him "there is no way you are going to F this thing up or tie up the building trying to carry 5/8 board up 5 stories. I went to bat for you and you're going to defer to me when I see you about to make a mistake". Then came the drywallers mistake. Which I'll have to admit the were pretty slick about it It was the third morning before I noticed. And I know its no excuse, it wasn't them being cheap or lazy or anything only ignorant.I posted before that the building we are working on was I thought 15000 sq ft.
I was wrong it is 11000, The last big one we did was closer to 13000. We are slated for another right next door for dead winter at around 13000 again.
I cut my teeth on rehabs here in the city and worked my share of suburban frames and just followed where it took me. When I landed this gig man it brought a whole new world into focus. I've had younger guys come and accuse me of forsaking the trade because I rarely where a nail bag anymore, but let me tell you this has been a great, great challenge and a great experience. http://www.robertsondevelopment.com/
http://homepage.mac.com/quicksilver6/quicksilver/PhotoAlbum3.html
these two links will show what we're doing
I only ask, cause I'm kicking around a design/build firm. I'm stuck spinning my wheels in production trim/cabinet work. I started as a wee lad with my grandfather, when we would build a house from start to finish, only subs we used were plumbers/electricians/plaster/paint. I'd like to get back to that on custom builds/remodels. Just hesitant to take the leap.
Sweet website.
qs,
Does the building dept. in your area make you do a DW screw/nail inspection ?
Re the sheetrock, if your deal specified glue, I'd challenge them on it - pull down a 4'x4' panel in their presents that you feel sure is not glued and see - then negotiate a reduced pay schedule. If it is glued, be prepared to get out your wallet and to feel like a fool. Get them to add some screws. Some minimal paper damage is normal - some could have even been damage material. Have you ever seen a gentle drywall puller? Beyond that, I wouldn't loose any sleep over it.
BTW - for those prices you quoted, exactly what does that include? Here in NC I pay $18.50 a 1/2"x 12' board - hung and finished - I supply the board - they supply everything else.
Tile guy complied, so I don't think you have an issue with him.
Roofing guy with 6d sinkers - I'd throw him off the site. He does have a good point thought that it is rather difficult to get wide pieces of metal perfectly smooth, especially for beginners - and then when they heat up they wrinkle some more. Really though, metal jobs are rarely perfectly smooth.
This is every day stuff for me. I just have to pick my battles.
Like I mentioned earlier I think that the ceiling is glued where and when the glue gun was handy And I think it became less handy day by day. For me to challenge this thing would become I think a nightmare. They have four more units to hang and really the reason I started this thread was to see if anyone thought that from their experience this would be a problem. as far as call backs due to failure of some kind. The majority of people I have talked to gave me advice similar to blue eyed devil. So I think I'll use this as a key to tightening up work quailty. If I got a lot or even one word advice that would convince me that this will become a serious problem I would challenge it. By the way, I hate keeping my fingers crossed . . . . know what I mean
When I'm hangin' ceilings (w/glue), it's two screws in the center of the field - butt joints are every 6".
Walls get NONE in the field. Make it easier on the finisher (me).
Also use ez-backers on the butts.
18' ceilings? Did a church once w/ 60' ceiling.
Have you seen the Black Dog's eyes
Staring in the fire?
Now I remember why I do all my own, by myself most of the time.
Hey man, don't knock us younguns! I'm only 22 and my company has never failed an inspection! LOL
Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Sorry dude. Being a little PO'ed that day I didn't even realize I was stereotyping. I should of said he just looked green, and you can be green at any age. I was twenty two not so long ago it seems and was proud of my work too. And know some young guys today that I think are pro's Keep it up.
No offense taken bro! Just tryin to give ya a little lighter mood. I understand your predicament...some of my (former) subs (who are 2-3 times my age) have been worse than yours as far as not building the level of workmanship you stated beforehand. Stay on 'em, and the good ones will respect that you are willing to pay for quality!Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling