As of 2 years ago, my furnace is a direct vent which means the only reason for a chimney is the water heater. I’m about to have a new roof put on and I was thinking that this might be a good time to get a direct vent water heater and take down the chimney.
On the plus side, by removing the chimney, I don’t have to maintain it (it could use some tuck pointing) and I never have to worry about any leaks. It also creates space in the bathroom for a small linen closet.
On the down side, there’s cost and reliability. They don’t sell direct vent water heaters at the local big boxes so I wonder if they’re mainstream products yet. I don’t want to help test new technology. Anyone have any first-hand experience?
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I wish I had the brand name for you of the water heater we went with but sorry I don't. I'm not sure why the big box does not carry them, but they are mainstream. We had ours installed in the old house to help make better use of the basement space and position it next to a drain, worked quite well, good luck.
by "direct vent water " I assume you mean tankless? HD caries them here in Ont but they are a hard sell at 1400 (vs 4-600 for regular HWT). The temp differential in the winter is hard to keep up with.
There are also "direct vent" (induced draft) tank-type heaters. I've never seen one in a big box, save for one in Menards probably 20 years ago.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
by "direct vent water " I assume you mean tankless?
No, I mean one of these. That's a link to Lowes website, but I've never actually seen it at Lowes.
I may be getting this all messed up since I'm familiar with oil fired boilers and not furnaces, but we use a "boiler-mate" to heat water so the water heater does not need its own venting.
The water tank is actually a heat exchanger that gets its heat source as a zone off the boiler. I don't know if you can do something similar with your furnace.
I don't think the market is that big in this area due to the cost. There are direct vent units, both in tankless and tank versions. What is coming up are the newer condensing high efficiency units, being mentioned on many of the the energy sites for release in late 2009.
The AO Smith site has a good list of the different types available in one location.
http://www.hotwater.com/products/residential/gas.html
Hi Don,
Give you some rumor here.....a neighbor had a direct vent unit which failed after appropriate use and years....went to get another, couldn't find one and started asking why?......was told that they were no longer code compliant in that region....he never did get a straight answer but found one a couple of hours away across the state line.....bought it, hooked it up and has been just as good as the last one....the only thing he ever did get from anybody was something about fire safety.....he figured his last one ran almost twenty years without a fire and and he was venting through cinderblock and brick so what could burn.....who knows??????
Secondly consider.....many older chimneys are a structural part of the house so you'll need to consider this if you remove it entirely. If you only remove the portion above the roof line, be sure to insulate it inside/out all the way down past the unheated attic and such before you cap it and be sure to securely close all inputs so the next homeowner doesn't vent something to nowhere in the future.
Otherwise......have fun!
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Re the code compliance thing, who was your friend dealig with? People in a big box store? We install direct vent gas water heaters here in NC all the time. You too are NC - right? BTW - what area?
Hi Matt,
He did check HD & Lowes and got the run around code excuses which he wasn't really taking to heart as he couldn't find anything in the NC building codes against it at the time....he was in Fuquay-Varina at that time. As mentioned he got the run around of excuses and knew that.
Then he went to his supplier, PSNC......they wanted to put in a whole new fandangled blower unit with new gas lines and pvc feed/exhaust for high $.
As a single guy that traveled a lot, all he wanted was the same simple little heater he'd always had, only the old one was worn out.
My guess is the big boxes simply didn't want to go to the effort to order one and PSNC wanted to feed all their employees steak for a month. All of this was during the building boom when everybody was about the fastest easiet buck......
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What area do you live in? I'm just interested in what BTers are in what area of NC. I'm in S Raleigh not far from Fuquay. Send me a post directly if you want to keep it down on the down low....
Edited 9/25/2009 9:56 pm ET by Matt
Let's do some country lunch buffet.....my treat......
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By direct vent do you mean the forced air induction type that vents throug PVC? They work great.
Or is Direct Vent a different animal?
Been there, done that.
And for basically the same reason, plus another.
I had a utility closet with 2 furnaces and a water heater. Used a single flue, which in itself was not a problem for me. And a vent with outside combustion air, which was the main problem. It communicated with the house air. Leaving a large air leak.
Replaced it with a direct vent furnace with external combustion air. And a direct vent WH similar to the one that Lowes has.
As far as I can tell they are basically the same as modern vented WH, except that it instead of a vented grill around the bottom for air it is sealed. What you don't see is that on top that there is a collar and then a duct down the back to supply combustion air to the burner.
The valve, burner, tank, etc are all basically the same as a standard WH.
One caution is that if space is tight these are shorter and thus fatter than standard WH's.
As someone else mentioned there are also power vented units. Basically they mix enough air into the exhaust to cool it down so that you can vent them out the side. But you can have much more pipe on them then on direct vents. Most of them are not sealed combustion if that is important to you, but there are seal combustion versions available.
Now those are a completely different design. As they have an electrical thermostat that starts the fan, and air pressure switches to verify draft, electronic ignigtion, and solenoid gas valves.
If this had come up 2 months ago I could have given you model numbers and brands.
I ended up with the State. It is same as AOSmith. They include a double wall flex and cap. Some of the other models venting is separate items that you have to buy. And the American WH (Lowes) used rigid ducting, which is a little more difficult to install. Maybe a lot more.
Also the State has an EF of .62 which was enough to get a small rebate from the gas company. The American is .59
If I recall Reliant is also the same unit as the State/AOSmith.
I paid $1100 for the State Unit. That included a $100 "warranty extension kit" and sales tax.
If want to go with Lowes, verify if the venting kit is included. The price that I saw on those was a $200 or so.
All of these have short warranty.
Some manufactures off a "warranty extension kit". The most important part of the kit is a 2nd anode rod that goes mount through the hot water connection. It also include a warranty sticker and a pair of heat traps, although the WH came with heat traps.
But you can get 3rd part anode rods to do the same thing, but without the sticker (and "warranty").
WARNING - WARNING
If you do install the anode or thing that you will pull the exist anode and replace it in the future unscrew it before installing. And get a couple of people and and cheater bar on the wrench.
They foam the tanks in the shell and include the fittings. Although it only have about 3/4" of foam on the nipple it sealed it in place better than epoxy.
Here is the State WH
http://www.statewaterheaters.com/lit/spec/res-gas/SRGSS02207.pdf
http://www.stateind.com/lit/im/res-Gas/186589-001.pdf
And American
http://www.americanwaterheater.com/products/productDetails.aspx?ID=1038
.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Edited 9/14/2009 12:57 pm by BillHartmann
I've used the A.O. Smith 'powershot' water heaters (now Vertex line) quite a bit. They're fine - but being powered for the vent they *do* lock out during a power failure.
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Jeff
I have one. Replaced it once in 16 years. Never a problem with the direct vent. As I recall, I paid about $100 premium for the vent feature, which amounts to a blower and a pressure sensor. Pretty simple.
I think it's Rheem.
Edited 9/15/2009 6:29 am ET by mike585
I installed a 50 gal powervent AO Smith, direct vents threw PVC, about 11 years ago.
Never ever!!ran out of hot water, runs flawless.
Pd approx, $600. @ the supply house, only way to go.
Take the bricks from your chimney and made a border around your wife flower bed with them, she will love it!!
If this is a chimney that has only provided for the furnace and the water heater in the past, then you're going to have the "orphaned" chimney syndrome in the winter if the water heater is the only thing venting into it. This will cause the water vapor to condense before it exits the chimney, leading to its deterioration. You could have a steel liner put into the chimney to prevent this. On the other hand, if you desire a direct venting water heater, you take the risk of no hot water if you lose electricity. This would be a problem in my earlier homes (Chicago area), but it hasn't been such where I currently live. I have gas for the stove and conventional water heater, and I think I could survive a blackout for some time with that and still enjoy a warm shower. My chimney also services a fireplace and the original furnace and water heater, so I had the liner installed when I went to a high efficiency gas furnace. I have a long time plumber who helps with my old house, so I let him put in a Bradford White water heater last time. I'm sure that there are less expensive alternatives, but at my age, something that lasts ten to twenty years might outlive me.
"On the other hand, if you desire a direct venting water heater, you take the risk of no hot water if you lose electricity. "My direct vent WH does not connect to any electrical power. Why would I not have HW if I lose electricity?.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Bill,
My AO Smith needs elect. for ignition and blower for exhaust.
No big concern to me, how often do you have a power outage?????
Tank will keep water warm for a while, and I always have my NG stove to heat water if needed!
What you have is a power vent. Different than a direct vent.Now it is not unusual to get an outage of less than a minute. When you are outside you can often hear the transformer hum when a squirrel tries for a cooked dinner.And the sub-station is about 1/2 mile away and you can often hear the reclosers (circuit breakers) try to close on shorted lines.For going out a couple of hours maybe every 2-3 years.For major outages of over 24 hours maybe every 10 years. Ice storms. And see seem to get power back before manny parts of the country..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
"Now I see said the blind man to his deaf wife"
I went back to reread the post and I assumed by getting rid of his chimney he wanted a power vent.
What is the advantage of a direct vent over a power vent?
I thought the power vents are more efficient!!
Still lots of BTU's going out that direct vent pipe.
I know the difference, my boiler is a direct vent and water heater a power vent.
Well the direct vent usually outside combustion air, which is an energy saver. But I don't believe that is figured into the energy factor that the EPA uses.For a power vent the it might reduce heat losses during off times, but the amount probably depends on the details of installation.While there are versions with external combustion air, from looking at the catalogs most don't. And the basic difference in the power vents is that they blow enough excess air to keep it cool. So they might suck out a lot of conditioned air, again depending on the details of the installation.My direct vent has an energy factor of .62. And I believe that the highest gas tank type WH is .65. Saw those in the list, but you have to look up each model to find out what type it is..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
AAHHH! Again!
I understand what you are saying.
When outside by my vent, it does push a lot of air, conditioned air, even tho it's in a cooler basement.
Now I have a Lenox forced air furnace, in another house, that takes in combustion air from the outside!
I am learning!
Thank you!!!
My mistake. I misinterpreted your "direct vent" to mean assisted by some electrical source. Just recently considering the various options, I chose the old fashioned gas water heater venting up the flue over those which would require electricity to operate more fuel efficiently. If the power goes, I can still shower, use my gas stove, and call someone on my old-fashioned Princess phone.
I don't think you have Menards in Jersey, but they carry them here in Iowa...
Jamie
Thanks for all of the input. I just wasn't hearing enough rave reviews to convince me to replace a relatively new water heater with a direct vent type.
One day I'd like to get rid of the chimney, but I'll wait until I do a bathroom remodel so I can make good use of the new-found space.
To me, direct vent is the only way to go as far as safety. Little to no danger of backdrafting combustion gasses. The only time we use conventional vented units is we have a tight budget. OK - actually a really tight budget= electric :-).
Granted, I don't know anything about power vented models. Where do they draw their combustion air from?
When shopping, watch the efficiency ratings too... an EF rating of 57 would be minimal. Some people don't realize it but a WH is one of the larger energy users in their home - because it more or less runs all the time.
From what I have seen, most power vent's just draw internal combustion air. And it has to be more than a plain WH because they have to mix in enough air to cool the exhaust. But I have not idea how much.They do make sealed combustion units, with 2 pipes. By looking at the listings in the catalogs and how many models they have listed they don't appear to a common, but that is only a guess..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I've had two of them over the last twenty-five years. The first one lasted 20 years running on propane. Only required normal maintenance. It was a Bradford White 40 gal. I replaced it with an A.O. Smith 50 gal. in 2004 when we switched to natural gas. It vents through 3" PVC to a large dryer vent - like fitting on the outside of the house. No problems to date. I'll buy another when the time comes.
Marty