This message goes to all the framers out there. Those I know here shouldn’t be insulted as this isn’t directed at you.
I get a call from a painter who’s on a job at a 10 y.o. 400 K house. The main entry door doesn’t fit properly, thinks it might be warped. It was a special order 3-0x 8-0 mahog. door set in a Thermotru frame with two sidelights. There’s a problem with the other 4 entry doors too, but these are standard steel skinned Thermotru’s.
Big door unit is set in a Dryvit alcove. Check for door warp with straight edge/laser plumb line. Straight and flat. Check the jamb and it’s way off plumb on one side, in to out. Door is also hung too low in the jamb, bottom drags on the already torqued down (and I mean torqued) adj. sill.
Ideally I’d have liked to cut loose the whole unit and reset. With the dryvit exterior and the fluted column trim and tile floor interior and huge half round window set on top of it all, no can do. So here I am with this huge beautiful thing to try and make right, that’s been wrong from day one. Look at the other doors and they’re in similar condition. Out of plumb/out of level, crossleged and on one, even a single diff. radius hinge, factory installed I think, w/o the mortice being changed so it sits on top of the jamb. All these doors have those ill thought out “extra security” wrap around plates and worthless thermotru “adjustible” strikes. Whoever thought those up should be hung by their thumbs. Sure, pry off the trim a bit and cut the wraparound part off. Nice enameled paint on extra wide casing.
With the finish on these other doors both in and out, they aren’t candidates for reset frames either w/o big $’s.
Why? If the units would have been set properly in the first place only minor adjustment and maintainance would be necessary instead of trying to come up with a miraculous (yet reasonable) way of keeping the snow out of the house. To take costly items and ruin them with quick crappy installation is criminal. This place was a custom, not track or spec. The money was there for at least a pretty good job.
!
&
#160;
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Replies
Same as the places where the framers didnt bother to glue and screw the subfloor to the joists. A lifetime of squeaks for the cost of a few lousy tubes of glue. So easy to do right, dman near impossible to fix afterward.
My last employer, an upscale builder who had me running the shop, left a $500k (now well over $1m) house's front door in a similar state. The HO had a video of snow blowing around the door.
GC took a look and determined the door was warped. Lumber yard came out and said it was hung crooked. HO, left with nobody to do anything, installed a storm door to keep out the snow. This was a spec house, sold before the foundation was complete, turning it into a custom house. I sold several thousand in upgrades just on shop work.
What amazed me was the GC not correcting the problem, even if it was a bad door, to keep the referral alive. As it was, I did a lot of further work privately for the HO. They didn't have kind things to say about the GC. Which actually was no surprise to me as I'd seen him run over clients' punch lists before.
GC's still in business. Not all his houses have such problems, but it seems he has no intention of fixing the mistakes once they are identified. A later house sloped 8", side to side. I heard about it when the carp asked where I wanted the correct counter height to be. Sure took me by surprise.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I heard about it when the carp asked where I wanted the correct counter height to be. Sure took me by surprise
Sorry but thats funny right there if ya aint involved with it
Yup, was to me too after a bit. Probably not so for the HOs who were looking forward to 38" (presumably, everywhere). Counter was over 20' long, broken by a hallway. Compromise was to have a step at the hallway. Turns out they were jerks anyhow. Don't know, maybe they find it funny by now too.
Lead guy blamed the transit, but I'm pretty sure there was something else involved.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Seems a carps eyes would have spotted that quickly . Seems like somthing else to me to like mebbe carps were not involved in the first place.
Tim
Seems a carps eyes would have spotted that quickly
Pretty hard to miss, assuming both eyes are focusing together. Which I believe was the problem. The guy responsible was an excellent trim carp and, far as I could tell, a decent framer. He blamed the whole thing on the transit.
Forgot a row of block on one side? I never did get a straight story, nor understood how they managed to build a good-looking house on it. I've built very out-of-square buildings, but having the floor slope that much seems like it'd make everything else all that much more difficult.
At least the front door did seem to close properly and the counters were level- good thing I'd built unusually high toekicks... And they thought it odd I refused to do installations. Never had that kind of problem in the shop.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
"sloped 8" side to side ...... where do you.....correct countertop....."
Reminds me of a couple who own a 1790-ish home here. Very visible sags in the flooring of a room which they wanted to convert to a laundry room incorporating a run of base cabinets ~ 12' with two tiers of 30" wall cabinets above. Yes the ceilings are very tall.
Room was very narrow so the base cabinets were custom depth ~ 20" or so.
The HO and myself hung the wall cabinets without any major problems.
I started playing with the levels and making notes on tape stuck to the floor, the HO asked me when we were going to start setting the bases (translates to - quit screwing around). I told him as soon as we had them all cut. HUH????
I explained the levels say the floor is sloped 1-1/2" left to right and about 1-1/4" front to back within the cabinet run, except of course for the 3/4" hump in the middle of the run -- Whad-da-we-gon-na-do?????? CUT? Izza-gonna-werk???? You shure????
I told him we needed a pant load of 3" wide masking tape to protect the sides of the cabinets during cutting - he flew out the door to the local big box to get some. By the time he got back I had the first cabinet cut and sitting in place plumb and level. He relaxed and we cut the remainder of the cabinets. Later he returned most of the tape.
The very old and the very new are where I find most of the real puzzles.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
HAd a guy working for me here I had to fire. Nice enogh kid but was versed in framing mainly. You'd think he's/they'd learn to re-gear themselves for the job in question but it seems that only a few can do that. This guy wanted to race through everything. And everything was, "good enough". I heard that expression one too many times before i finally fired him. Lucky I didn't kill him.
Framers should stick to only framing except for the rare few....and the rare few usually is the boss.
I'm still cursing at some of the things that friggin guy did here. My fault for keeping him here too long thinking I could change/teach him to re-gear himself for different projects.
Be well
andy
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
Hi Cal,
I just hope this doesn't turn into a 'pigpile on the framer' thread. But you're right. It's BS, and should be totally unacceptable. When I quote my framing jobs I break out the cost of the window and door installation separately. The reason being is that I know it costs me more than it does my 'competition'. I want the GC (or whoever is receiving the proposal) to make note of the additional cost and question it. This gives me a chance to explain how I go about installing a door and illustrate problems I've seen in the past with poor door installations. Thus, hopefully, justifying the additional cost.
I will admit though, that often times our window installations aren't what I'd do (and did) on my own house. Part of this is logistics.... GC wants me to install the windows... but doesn't want to pay us to wrap the house because it's often considering to be in the sidewaller's scope. Catch 22. How do you install windows and/or doors without housewrap? You run those goofy 8" wide strips of whatever kind of housewrap or felt paper is laying around, down the sides of the RO and call it done. I don't get to call all the shots.
No matter what the logistics of the house wrap are, we do pay careful attention to door installations. We start with a 'pan' made from scrap I&W shield, provide some sort of wrap around the RO and then install to manufacturers specs. The doors are all shimmed, nailed through the jambs (yes, with a finish nailer) and then the long hinge screws are run, through shimming, and into the framing. We also check to make sure they operate properly and all hardware will line up correctly. This sounds routine, but, believe me, it really isn't. I've seen an awful lot of doors installed on framing sites where the exterior casing is nailed off and the door is still factory screwed shut. No shimming and that little baggy of long brass screws is still stapled to the jamb of the door waiting to be buried for good by interior casing.
I remember working for my old boss in a big development 5 or 6 years ago. We were framing a house across the street from one completed by one of the others crews on the site. The GC was showing the house to some folks as a model. They walked through the 9 light side door into the garage. When the GC swung the door closed behind the couple it fell right out of it's opening. I almost died from embarrassed laughter, even though it wasn't our frame. When the GC asked my boss to deal with it, he sent me over. The RO was way over sized, and the framer had just nailed of the exterior casing with a gun... most of the nails had completely missed the framing and their weren't any other fasteners holding the door in place... other than the painter's caulk.
It's criminal.
Brian, don't worry about the pile on the framers. I'm sure stories will be told here an elsewhere about the slip-shod way some put houses together, but to be a framer in the true sense of the word isn't in the same league with these bozo's. Rough and finish carpenters. Many in the trade shouldn't even think about including the word carpenter because they aren't. It's sad, and even more so when high dollar materials are butchered.
I like your idea on the price breakout. It does highlight the fact that your bid is reflective of the extra's that you supply eventho the con artists I'm sure don't to the separation. I don't often competitively bid, but it must irk the crap out of guys to lose a job because of total price only instead of the whole shelonga. You do this long enough, you'll hear the " I should have gone with you" story many times.
Oh well, breaks over. Have you been seeing the deluge Conn. got/is getting? Roof on?Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Southern NH got washed out real bad this weekend. Roads, houses, bridges...gonzo. I spent Saturday night (1am to 4:30 am) pumping out my basement as it came in. We've got the water problem right now because of a lack of gutters and lack of final grading around the driveway during construction....but at least I've got a roof on and we managed to stay dry.
Rain just keeps coming though. We've got another flashflood warning in place until Friday morning I believe. We're so saturated right now that I saw the valve box covers of my sprinkler system float about 20' across my backyard. The regions of NH that got nailed this weekend are looking to get nailed as bad or worse in the coming days according to the radar. Weird.
You do this long enough, you'll hear the " I should have gone with you" story many times.
I've heard it before. It's flattering....but doesn't pay the bills.
Do It Right the First Time ??<!----><!----><!---->
I wish that was the motto around here.<!----><!---->
My part of the world is so price conscious that the hacks are doing most of the work for the GC's.<!----><!---->
The customer will walk if he can't get the lowest price and the GC won't sell the value of a job well done. <!----><!---->
What framing I do is strictly limited to and for customers that either know me or have been burned by the low price jobs.<!----><!---->
Damn, I get tired of explaining to people that there is more differences between two builders than just the price.<!----><!---->
Terry<!----><!---->
A vicious cycle Terry.
We get it, why can't others?Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I just noticed your remarks on installing housewrap before installing windows. We will be putting on our own house wrap in the next couple of weeks and the framer will putting in the windows. What would you consider the optimal way to install housewrap and when. Please explain your reasoning. What are your thoughts on house wrap vs. builders paper? Thanks.
Hi Joe.
I'm flattered that you would ask my opinion. To be fair, there are others here who are better qualified to answer your questions.
But, since you asked: When the window installation procedure is left up to me, we actually follow Tyvek's own procedure, pretty much to the letter. It's not hard, it works well, and fulfills warranty requirements. That's what we did on my own house. Unfortunately, in the real world, many (maybe even most) GC's aren't interested in paying for the additional labor and materials required for a first class installation. That's too bad because for what it actually costs, it's a real good deal long term. However, for a spec builder, the return on investment is non-existant.... and that is the bottom line. So, we usually end up doing a sort of hybrid procedure making the best of the time I have allotted in my proposal and the materials available on site.
Housewrap vs felt? I don't really care which, to be honest. Personally, I'd rather install Tyvek as it's a quicker and easier install from a framing perspective. But when I was residing my own house a couple years ago with Hardi I used felt as it was easier to handle when I was working alone. We just finished a second floor on my new (to me) house and resided, again with Hardie. This time we used Tyvek as I had my crew and the second floor walls were papered before the walls were stood.
The only time I'd be nervous about using Tyvek is with unprimed WRC. I really don't know whether the tannins in cedar break down the Tyvek, but I'm also really not interested in finding out on a customer's job either. Then again, installed unprimed WRC is a bad idea in and of itself. I also can't honestly say whether or not the priming of WRC will stop interaction between the cedar and the wrap. I do know that there are an awful lot of houses here in New England that are wrapped in pre-primed cedar and Tyvek. An awful lot. I'd even venture to say that it is pretty much SOP at this point.
Here's the link to Tyvek's installation PDF. It's a great bit of information that is well worth the time spent reading it and viewing the illustrations.
http://construction.tyvek.com/pdf/K02107HRBeforeInstall.pdf
Thanks dieselpig,
It is great to hear other opinions. We are also going to put up Hardie siding and after hearing what you had to say and from what our framer and others have said, both products can do the job well. For the main part of the house Tyvek maybe easier to use and for the smaller jobs use the paper. Thanks for the Tyvek link...I'll have a look.
Brian,
We used to install our housewrap when the wall was on the deck and then leave it 2-3' long at the corners. We'd lift the wall and then staple the wrap around the corners. Now we can't install housewrap until we get a shear inspection. So the siders do it. They also flash the windows properly. What we do though is use a Moistop self adhesive flashing that is half sticky. We put it under the sill, then the housewrap can be tucked under the sill and installed around the window. Then the rest of the flashing can be installed.
Thermatru..............used to be a decent product.
Installed (or tried to) a double entry door today in an existing opening.
Old out, new frame in, hang passive door then stationary. Wow that was easy, not crosslegged, no problems and you know how these double doors can be sometimes.
I go to install the bolts on the stat. door.
Guess where one of the srews on the adjusable threshold is??
You got it, exactly where the slide bolt needs a hole drilled.
I'm working for a GC as part of a kitchen remodel, HO purchased the door, guess who has a problem?
And I'm done for the day cause the lumber yard tells the ho that TT will come out and change out the threshold, frame whatever tell your carpenter not to trim out the door.
TT stuff has really turned into garbage.
Alternatives??
Eric
It's Never Too Late To Become
What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
Boy, now there's one chance in hell on that location. You gotta believe think that they actually have to cut that adj sill out of a long pc and just keep wacking till the pc is done. Bum deal that.
I on the other hand used to think the product sucked, only recently getting better and that with the plant and hdqtrs formerly located here in Maumee. Out of sq. slabs, miss joined thresholds, and sloppy hanging. Well, outside of the slabs being the only thing thermatru and the hanging and assembly a distributor, I was blaming the wrong one most of the time.
They were the first with the composite thresh and the bottom of the jamb legs out of the same. I've become disillusioned with most of the suppliers, a real shame.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
ThremaTru, peeeeuuuuu. Around here they've gone way down hill. Now, I understand that the frames are put together, and the doors are hung, locally, but they need to do some kind of quality control. I hang about 50- 60 a year, and none have the same reveal, especially at the heads. Heads are different from sills, hinges aren't completely in mortices, mortices are different distances from stops, hinge screws are in so crooked that the hinge leaves can't close all the way, wrong weather stripping, threshold screws that rust, torn bottom sweeps, transoms that don't even come close to lining up, strike mortices that don't line up with latches...and what's with the deadbolt mortices that nothing fits in!!!!...and don't even get me started on their garden doors or units with side lights.I don't like to see framers bashed, either. It's how I started out, and I ran a framing and siding business. I still frame, but your point is taken. The reason I hang all those doors (I do mostly trim) is because the framers I work behind, haven't got a clue how to hang a door. The GCs got tired of me having to rip them out.Hey you ever seen ####set of French doors with sawzall marks on the tops of the doors and the head jamb? That's how you get the keeper nails out, LOL. ...hanging a ThermaTru is like trying to polish a turd...man, I need a break<G> "what's in a name?" d'oh!
I'm doing my part to bring their attention to the quality they seemingly are trying to control.
Still a firm believer in that screw me once, screw me twice axiom. And man, I take it to extremes. I'm sure one voice makes no #### a bit of difference, but if more carpenters started to speak up, who knows..............someone in that company might actually give a ####.
But, what do I know?Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
So where is Gene Davis Homewright Stinger et al when you need him?
He used to work for TT I believe.
Perhaps some insight is available!It's Never Too Late To Become
What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
Gene Davis is Stinger?...well, bite me! "what's in a name?" d'oh!
news to me. But Gene changes names here almost as often as I change shirts
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
We talked of the thermatru connection b/4 and he pretty much stands on the local distributors doing the assembly as the culprit. Well, we've never had a discussion on that lamebrain security / adjustible strike plate thing. Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Yes, Therma-Tru's adjustable strike is worthless. Yes, you can blame warped and out-of-square slabs on them.
But most all the rest of the problems? Blame them on the distributors . . . Huttig, Brosco, whoever they've got in the Carolinas now (used to be Carolina Builders), Midwest Jobbers, etc.
The distributors buy the frames direct from the frame mills, and they do all the prehanging, which often includes door and frame machining.
I just hung two Brosco units, one with a high end Simpson slab in it, prepped for full mortise lock. The full mortise prep took me two hours to correct. Neither unit was shipped with long hinge screws for driving into the studs, and these have oilrubbed bronze finish. Try to get that at your local hardware store.
The big news now is that Huttig dropped their line, which will cause Therma-Tru to scramble and find distributor coverage where the Huttig voids will be. Who knows how that might affect door unit quality? We'll have to wait and see.
No, I didn't dream up the adjustable strike. That was in play before I arrived. Here is some of what you can blame on me, because they all were developed and launched under my watch: the foam weatherstrip with the long reach on the strike side, their Classic Craft product line, triple-point hardware on patio doors, the high end sliding screen, the Smooth Star product line, lite frames in glassfilled polypropylene, not that crummy styrene, no-rot adjustable sills, and most importantly, installation instructions that the distributors are supposed to fix to every shipped unit (I know they don't read them), but at least they tell you the right way to do it, the first time.
Well thanks for all the good info as usual Gene.
Brosco is steadily slipping down hill in my opinon.
I saw another TT door that Brosco prepped, and the sill and head were both tight to the slab. The carp hung it, you can't even open it without leaning your body into it.
Him installing it rather than sending it back was dumber than the guys who jambed it.
EricIt's Never Too Late To Become
What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
That is the most common problem I see with TT - that and the warp from no meat around the knob hole
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I hope you had a wonderful trip...........and avoided this gray deluge we have been experiencing!
EricIt's Never Too Late To Become
What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
<I saw another TT door that Brosco prepped, and the sill and head were both tight to the slab. The carp hung it, you can't even open it without leaning your body into it.Him installing it rather than sending it back was dumber than the guys who jambed it.>Yeah, let's hold the job up for a couple-three weeks<G>...there are ways to beat a TT into submission. Most every trim guy knows how to get a big door to work in a little hole...you can't blame a framer for hanging a door that was not put together quite properly, don't most of them live in caves anyway? How would they know LOL...now, hanging it with wacked reveals, not hitting the weatherstripping, or springing the siding against the brickmould...that you can blame 'em for<G> "what's in a name?" d'oh!
My comment was valid about stupidity.
It would not have held up anything as it was installed as a replacement in a still vacant rental.
I would not even try to whack a sill into submission on one of these doors.
All that supergooeysticky glue and six 2 " glue coated staples per side.
I don't beat on much of anything theses days, other than my chest perhaps, and then only in the Tavern!!It's Never Too Late To Become
What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
Where's Gene Davis with all of this talk about TT?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Believe me, I can't count how many times i have told TT reps of their priobl;ems and they all keep repeating the party line, "Really, I haven't ever heard of that before!"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Welcome home.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Thanks,
I'm catching up on phone mesasages, e-mails, BT responces, and cataloging the hundreds of photos I took over there. We had a fair amt of overcast but only one day of regular rain.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Take a break then...;)I hate TT too, but I got the impression that Calvin's problem was with the cross-legged way this one was hung
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
<Take a break then...>Alrighty then, I do get wound up about doors...thanks;-) Ahh, Friday night.I did think cal said something about the hinge mortices being off, something I see way to frequently in TT doors. Huttig puts ours together, I'm not going to miss them if they go south...they also make some very sketchy interior doors.I remember you saying how you weren't real fond of TTs back when you first showed here. At the time, I didn't get it. The TT doors we were getting then were great...it's a whole nother ball game now<G>Just so you's know I'm not totally door negative, I put in an 6/8 8/0 Peachtree slider a couple of weeks ago. Very nice door, and heavy as hell...course wait til the one year punch, ha, ha, ha... "what's in a name?" d'oh!
I felt like the odd man out back then, but other's are starting to notice the problems.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I think a large part of the problem is the all the "specialization" going on. I understand it is cheaper, in some cases better, but it's so easy for a trade to bury a problem. It's easy to just slap a door in when you walk away in a couple of weeks, and the problem becomes someone else's.
The problem I always run into is the bowed stud. How hard is it to notice a stud that is twisted 1 1/2" in 8 or 9 feet? Then the board hangers just rug right over, probably noticing, but it's not there problem. Before you know it, it's taped, and painted. I'm standing there with a 48" wall cabinet tight on one side, and 3/4" away on the other.
are we working in the same house this week?
my beef is more with the big named builder than the bottom of the barrel framers ... and every other trade .. that they have used and will continue to use.
aside from the "usual" walls way outa plumb and no where near square ... we tore open an interior partition last week. Took a look-see to see if the wall behind the staircase could be reframed and the duct run moved back ... it was a "double wall" ... load bearing for the stairs ... just a nonload bearing wall built immediately next to it to "shim out" the refridgerator nook ... the plan ... cut out the excess ... a nook inside a nook ... and recess the fridge 3.5" ...
so ... open it we do. My HVAC guy looks and laughs ...
must be an "XYZ Home" .... one of "pittsburgh's finest builders" ...
he see the framing of the I was hoping to cut out ...
boxed and twisted studs ... still covered with concrete!
they freaking reused the concrete forms to punchlist frame the interior.
I found more for drywall catches on the other side of the room.
Guess when they deliver that last load of lumber ... it's really the last load those guys have to work with!
"OK ... we need a glulam ... uh ... go out to the dumpster next door and ..."
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
If you do not have time to do it right the first time, how do yo0u have time to go back and fix it?
Our rule of thumb, when working on a project....remember the golden rule:
Do to others as you wold have them do to you.
You would not set your own door wrong. Quality creates quanity.
A good name is far greater that great riches.
Hey tex, welcome to Breaktime.
Now, you've posted to me and I'm a bit befuddled. I understand the goldenrule, work as if it's your house, and the time thing. Are you thinking I built the house, bought the expensive door and then stuck it in the opening wrong and of course taking some real expensive finishes and finishing it? If so, no way ho zay.
It doesn't matter how much the door cost, whether you read the ten commandments or not, nor where you live.......be it trailer or apt. That's the front door. Above all, it should work..........well.
Whatever you were thinking, welcome to the best place to come for information, comraderie and a sucker punch.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I did not assume you built the house. I just pictured you as trying to deal with someone's mistake.
I may be qualified on many subjects. I started as a framer (pre-nailguns) in 1972 and have been in the home building industry ever since. I am now a custom builder, but only build 3-6 homes per year, ranging from $350,000.00 - $1,000,000.00 plus.
I earned my eductaion as a builder / GC going from framing carpenter into all phases, having 20 employees at one time doing everything from the foundation to mirror and hardware installtion in house, except mechanicals.
My wife and I, and a superintendent now make up the company, as we sub-contract most of our work. We have a tractor and skid loader, and do most of the site prep and dirt work in house. I alos have a CAD program, and we are currently building a home that I designed. We are having a blast and the money is good.
I am trying to venture into land development, and have bought one hundred acres 40 miles southwest of Houston (Go Astros). Perhaps I'll keep posting as we develope.
Check out my ugly 50 year old mug and my wife at http://www.brotherscustomworks.com.
You'd be an asset if you stuck around. Thanks for your comments.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
tex... i followed your link but couldn't find any reference to you.. just motorcycles
what CAD program are you using ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Sorry, I recently changed domain registaration from registar.com to godaddy.com, godaddy is hosting my website and somehow the transfer has knocked my website off the web.
I will post again when my webmaster gets it fixed.
I use Softplan CAD program. I am using Version 10, but will be upgrading to the latest V12 soon. http://www.softplan.com.
Good program, but expensive. There is a forum for users (exclusive/users only) that is made up of SP users all over the world. great forum if you are a user and / or purchase the program. Lots of help with learning and problems, adn a good bunch of guys like Breaktime..
piffen uses Softplan... i use Chief..
we argue their relative merits ... or at least we used to.. in the end we've more or less decided SoftPlan, Chief, & VectorWorks are about equal in their appeal to design -build firmsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
What are the cost for the other two? If they are adequate, and cost less then the merits are within the cost.
I know lots of professional home designers and architects use Softplan, and the avaliability of resources, support and outsourcing help is immesurable. The SP network of users provides additional custom designed symbols, libraries and all manner of help from professional users who have worked to create custom items and drawings. Most can be had for the asking when you are an SP user.
SP is expensive. I have about $3,000.00 invested and my upgrade to V12 or V13 with two additional keys (Sotplan requires a key to operate / attached to USB port) for our remodeling / additions planer and our small projects planner will be another $1,000.00.
i think Chief is about $1600 for a full license.. and my last upgrade from 9 to 10 cost about $395... we have 3 seats..so my last upgrade was also about $1K..
and Chief requires a USB key to operate also
we also have two user sites..one is run by ART ( the company that owns Chief ) and one is a user group on Yahoo...
i get about 30 - 50 emails a day on the Chief User Group.. and it's 24 hours a day, because it's international.
no requirements to own chief to participate in either group..
i used to belong to the VectorWorks grou[ also..just to see what wa going on.. but it was too much trying to follow two user groups..
i tried Auto Cad in the mid-80's but went back to my boards... i've been using Chief since about '97 ( vs. 5.0 ).. i think you would find some amazing similarities between the two ( SP & Chief )
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 10/24/2005 9:40 pm ET by MikeSmith
I too started with SP in 97 V9. V13 coming out soon.
CAD is fantastic and truly amazing.
I started with a T Square / triangles / pencils and drawing table in 1970, but the tools only gather dust now. I wanted to be an architect, but too much of a certain smokable herb hindered progress in college. I became a frame carpenter, but have come full circle....... designing one of the homes we are now building.
I know some of the SP users on Splash are aware and may have worked with Chief. I have heard no real complaints. Kudos to Chief on keeping their cost down (at least below SP).
Calvin,
Let me know how you fix this. I'm facing the same problem on my home. I want to replace the door blank with a new cedar unit I bought in Canada but the original installer must have been drunk when he installed the frame/door unit. Mines as much as 1/2" out of plumb on one side, making the door look warped.
I've got the inside trim ripped off and was wondering if I can cut the fasteners and jimmy the thing around or if I need to drill the nails out so I can work with the original "adjustable jamb."
Thanks,
NCtim
tim,
I had not much choice. I couldn't start removing anything, the finishes both in and out were too costly. They wanted a tight (no snow or wind) fit, did not want to damage what they had.
So, on this 8' tall, 4 bb hinged door set in a thermatru frame with compression weatherstripping and adj sill, I did this.
Moved the bottom hinge out a small 1/4, the second up- out an 1/8, third I left, 4th-In a big eighth. I was trying to bring the bottom out, the top of the door in. I had probably 5/8'ths out of plumb on the latch side. The compression ws. allows some leeway and still seals pretty well.
When they cut the hinges, they must have put the penny on the wrong thing (reveal), you could almost see through the margin at the head. And there was an adjustible sill, which they had torqued down reeeeal hard to get the hung too low door to close. So, while moving the hinges out, I also moved them up a big 1/8th. All this done to the jamb, the easiest to fill and paint.
Now, an 8' door is pretty tall for a 5'-9'' guy, older one at that. I did them while keeping the door up, blocked the bottom at each end and always kept a safety hinge connected. Ever tried to put a pin in that door you can barely keep from keeling over? I took the easiest way out.
Took 1/8 th dowel and plugged the old hinge screw holes, new hinge holes were right close to the old, no way to register the drill in a shim shaving patch job. All this worked well. The painter assures me the jamb can be made to look good. The mahog door had nothing done to it but putting it where it belonged.
The thing to look for and remember, you can't tip into that weatherstripping to god awful much, it'll spring the door, jamming it and forcing it toward the latch side. You shouldn't tip out too much, it'll look weird with the bottom edge of the door sticking out. This door by the way was now hung out of plumb (tipping out at the top), so you might worry about a non tight 2 or 3 hinge installation closing the door automatically. It could swing open. This one, the 4 bb hinges that were probably never right to begin with and then tweeked around, for sure were slightly hinge bound tight so impromptu travel wasn't probably going to happen. The bearings kept the movement smooth and quiet.
Tim, if I had it opened up, I would consider cutting loose or taking off the ext. casing too. Pulling the jamb and putting a pan under it and start over. Cut the nails off with a metal blade in your sawzall. Cut the casing nails (exterior) to free the jamb. You have a nice door, put it in a good home. Believe me, the hours I had in deducing the problem , the fix and the application, I could have set a new frame. If the wall it's in is wrong, cheat the jamb plumb if you can, extend the jamb to trim on the in or out. If the place is torn up, think about pursuading the wall if that's out of plumb too.
I explain for #### sometimes, if you have a question, please ask. And welcome to BT, from N.C.? You need a good mason around Burnsville, lemme know.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Edited 10/13/2005 8:27 pm ET by calvin
Edited 10/13/2005 8:29 pm ET by calvin
> Ever tried to put a pin in that door you can barely keep from keeling over?
Yeah. What I did was put the pins about 3/4 of the way into the top knuckles of the hinges, and stick them there with little tabs of masking tape. Then, with a couple ft. piece of one by in hand, and a wedge on the floor, dance the door into place, and use the one by to reach over and tap the pins down as I got them lined up.
-- J.S.
Where there's a will there's a way huh john.
This one man #### really gets you to use your noggin for more than a hat rack.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
True.... The other problem with this method is that I have to do it only when nobody's lookin' -- 'cause I fumble and cuss so much. ;-)
-- J.S.
Thanks, Calvin. Burnsville is not too far from me.
Are you new to that area? Nice country around there. And a pretty diverse group of individuals.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
<And a pretty diverse group of individuals.>We prefer to be referred to as characters, thank y'all very much<G> "what's in a name?" d'oh!
but I'd characterize you as an individual to the n-th degree
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hey Tim, where are you? Anywhere near Chapel Hill? ohhh yeah, welcome<G> "what's in a name?" d'oh!
Edited 10/15/2005 9:50 am ET by BiteMe
Near Asheville. Western part of the state. Old mountains, cool streams, decent weather.
I sure enjoy you all's banter. Been reading Fine Homebuilding since it came out in the 80s. I've learned more there than from any other book or magazine. I'm a recovering perfectionist. I used to build cabinets when I first came here so it's a hard habit to break. Took me three days to build a deck a few weeks ago. I still get hung up on plumb and square. I do like this "new" wood called Eon. It stays where you put it and I don't have to worry about everything getting twisted out of shape in a couple of days.
You have any trouble with deck screws breaking with the new pressure treat?
I've been here since the 70s. My wife is from here and we met in college. Lot nicer here than in Illinois. Brrr. Man, it only got up to 78 today. Time to get out the long johns. Haha!
Back to the main subject, I'm going to fix that door this weekend. Thanks for the advice.
When I was contracting I had a framer tell me that "It ain't a music box" when I told him to replumb a window wall. I asked him if I could deduct what I paid the trim guys from what I owed him. He fixed it. And I deducted $500 from his bill for being surly and holding me up.
BTW, it was the same guy who installed the front door on my house. I'm a slow learner.
That story cost him three jobs that I know of. I don't contract anymore. It wasn't fun after awhile and I like to have fun at my work.
My buddy and his wife live outside of Burnsville. He's been a mason there since the 70's, mainly doing masonry heaters now. His wife is the cellist in the Ashville symphony (?). Nice country there. Our resident concrete dome guy (Cloud Hidden) is just outside your town, ever see that dome from the road?
Best of luck making that door right.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Our daughter played in the Asheville Symphony as a guest artist of few times when she was in high school. Beautiful performances and talented folks! I love this town, so much opportunity and quite a cross section of humanity.
I'm not familiar with the "Dome." Where is it?
Aha, Asheville. My house is in East Asheville, the Haw Creek area up by the Parkway. Not visible unless you know where to look. Welcome to another person from WNC.
Thanks, you must be the dome guy. I'm on Little Pisgah Mountain near Hickory Nut Gorge in Fairview.
NCtim
Tim,
Jim.
Jim,
Tim.
My work here is done.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Okay. Thanks, I think. I sure have appreciate your advice. Looked it over a bunch today. Just can't seem to get started. It's Sunday and I don't make noise on Sunday.
Glad I could have confused the #### outta you.
But do let us know how you fixed it when you do. Always something to learn to help us later.
Best of luck.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Now I thought Hickory Nut Gorge was down further toward Chimney Rock. Do I have that wrong? I have some property in Fairview, but the other end, right after crossing over Reynolds Mountain.
Yup. We're right before "Great View!" and "Can't see ####." Last of the Fairview designation. Last road you see before you leave Buncombe County is Sugar Hollow.
Just checked the 6' atrium door I installed, myself, into a plumb and square wall, before I start the trim on my office addition. The darn thing is hinged out of plumb so the door looks racked. Man am I P.O'd!!! Everything is plumb but the door blank. Now I've got to go and reconfigure the hinges, using your advice, thank you, to make a brand new door that cost almost $2000 correct. I think I'll start a millwork shop and sell doors and windows that trades people don't have to waste time fixing before the job is over.
I'm glad I checked before I started finishing the inside. Boy, this burns me up. I emailed the supplier and manufacturer to see if I can get a rebate.
I certainly appreciate the value of this forum.
Tim,
Check the way the hinges lay on the jamb and the attitude of the jamb itself. If the unit is in plumb and square, the hinges might be cocked in the jamb, throwing the corner off just a bit. If the jamb is pulled back a bit, this could throw the closing fit a bit off. Laying the level on the door that is shut, is it plumb at the hinge side?
You can rock the hinges in their mortice to move the latch side a bit in or out. With three hinges, you adjust each one a bit more than the next in line, using the back of a legal pad's paperboard.
You can also spring the jamb since your interior casing is off (?). Try a wonderbar and pry slightly and see if that pushes the latch side in the proper position. A shim forcing the jamb over might do the trick (or the removal of one already installed).
You say Atrium door. Is this a one active door hinged off the other fixed door? With a common threshold?
I'd hate to see you take the drastic measure I did if there's another way.
Ask your daughter if she met a cellist named Brenda?A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Thanks Calvin.
Yes, it's a single door hinged off a common center post, fixed on one side, live on the other.
The door is out of plumb while the jamb is true. I was so angry when I discovered this that I didn't really think it over very well. After thinking it through in those fuzzy moments before sleep last night, I figure I may have to cheat the center jamb to make it work. I think that'll be easier than mucking around with the hinges.
I'll ask her. See if Brenda remembers a Kid named Jordan who played flute and piccolo in the mid 90s.
I'll ask Brenda about Jordan.
Good move to think it through and try a few things. Hinge rocking if there's room on the latch side reveal can do a lot of fine tuning that's minimally invasive. Best of luck.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Hey Calvin,
I don't want to sound like an amateur here, but . . . I went to work on that door this afternoon and all the hinges (4) have 5 screws. Given this factor, I can't seem to cheat on the hinges. The exterior is finished; screws puttied and painted, stained, caulked, trim looks great. It seems that the strike side of the door needs to come out at the top, the hardest place to hide any cheating. The hinge jamb could be backed into the framing on the bottom but it won't move. (Glued and screwed and all, like it was gonna come out in a hurricane, geez!)
You think I could take a sawzall and carefully cut the "liquid nails" under the threshold? It'll make the sill look bowed, but I'd rather have the door seal flush than freak out over an eighth of an inch threshold reveal.
You can email me if you want. You know the drill:
[email protected]
OK, I'll send one now. I'll need to know the gap location you are trying to correct b/4 I can attempt a long distance instruction. Believe me, this is harder to explain than to do. You'll need some paperboard shims. Get a legal pad and cut some 1/4-3/8ths wide by Hinge length long strips off the paperbd back.
Shoot, you have free long distance cell phone?
I'll email you my number.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Hey Calvin,
I'm not looking to shum the hinges. Maybe I misunderstood you. The door is not meeting flush on the latch side. No gap at the bottom and not meeting the weather strip on the top so it's not really closed at the top. Does that make sense? It's a 4-hinge. Email me and we can talk. Tonight is poker night so I won't be home until 10:00 PM Eastern.
I emailed you with the address you provided last time. Cut out the nospam, didn't come back undeliverable.
What I tried to describe wasn't shimming the hinges per se. You shim just one edge of the hinge leaf, rocking it.............thus tipping the door just a fuzz closer to the stop/weatherstrip. You do move it over a bit on the jamb itself, but if you can afford the room, it can help place the door tighter to the stop. Sometimes you have to mortice the other edge deeper to rock the hinge w/o moving it closer to the jamb.........and potentially binding on the jamb.
I sent you my phone number, you can call. Tonight is my man am I whipped nite, thus feet pointed up on the couch for sure by 10. Call tomorrow morning, let me know if you didn't get the number/and-or send me yours, I'll call on the cell, no LD..........I don't think.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
In defense of idiotic framers, the GC that doesn't check the quality of work from the subs until it's too late is getting what he deserves. The framers didn't screw it up, the GC allowed it.
OK don, I'll include the GC.
I should have been a little more inclusive in my first post. I'll even go further. To start over, the person who framed it, the GC and all others responsible to bring this home to occupancy, the previous homowner for not fixing it, the house inspector for not noting it, etc.
thanks.A great place to come for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Hey cal, nice fix...keep the collateral damage to a minimum, that's what I keep telling the guys<G> "what's in a name?" d'oh!
Eight foot Holly.
Sumbitch was up there.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Ohhhh, let me know how you fix an 8' Norco slider...and what, you getting Joyce to help you?<G> "what's in a name?" d'oh!
Put in an Andersen, pella or marvin.
Plead with them to ship knockdown.
Get a guy.
Get another guy.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Another comic aside don.
These folks had a technician from a door company (specialize in selling doors/ windows/ siding / garage doors) in the week b/4. Said the painter had screwed up the front door (priming the exterior), the other doors couldn't be fixed, you gotta tear 'em out. Did nothing. Presented a bill to the homowner for 125.00.
now that's good work if you can find it.A great place to come for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Framers - please read this through before you get pi$$ed... IdahoDon said:
>> In defense of idiotic framers, the GC that doesn't check the quality of work from the subs until it's too late is getting what he deserves. The framers didn't screw it up, the GC allowed it. <<
Yes and no... and although I do subscribe to that general type of philosophy, as a builder (superintendent) I have not found a framing crew who knows how to hang a door - properly - IMO. The exception to that might be if their framing for the opening is perfectly plumb - then, some might come right. Further, when I offer a pack of shims, I often just get a puzzled look in return. Sometimes they will use them to move the doors around in the openings, but shim each hinge? Really, at door install time I'm more concerned with getting the door opening properly prepared (flashed and lots of caulk applied prior to door installation) since this is not something I can easily fix this later. Granted I can't financially justify hiring a high quality framer like Bryan, but also note that the guys I do hire charge (from what I gather in other threads) 1/4 to 1/2 of what he does. I know that different geographic locations mean different pay scales, but I doubt seriously that the difference is nearly that great. I have worked with the crew I've been using for the last 6 months and showed them some little tricks - like plumbing the hinge side first, and then showing them how to check a door by eye when it is hung, but then they go on to the next one and F it up just like I never said anything. The one thing I think I have been able to get through to them is that they have to make all door rough openings perfectly plumb (placing a long level on the narrow side of the jack studs). Don't get me wrong - I do feel that these guys are are decent framers, (I've had some bad ones) but I also can't expect the highest quality of work when you are not hiring the best paid guys. I think BiteMe knows exactly what I'm talking about since he lives just down the road from me - comprende?
So, the door hanging situation continues to be a quandary for me. What I do is tell the framers to only put 6 or so nails in the brick mold. Not that I've ever had them put nails in the jambs... Sometimes I'll hand them my trim gun since I know the 15GA nails don't hold that well and that way I won't end up with any ugly hammer marks. Then I have a punch guy (me for now) go back over it and adjust the exterior doors for a perfect plumb and closure. It makes me feel like less of a "manager" though to have to go back over people's work. I think my boss man is OK with this kind of thing though because I think he truly wants to build quality homes with as few call backs as possible but also wants me to bid out all phases of construction, not necessarily hire the cheapest, but to check pricing to make sure I'm (he's) not getting the shaft... IE - get a good value from the subs I do hire. So, the real trick is getting things done right for a cheap or at least a reasonable price.
I've talked to my interior trim guy about this situation. The interior doors he hangs are all perfect and shimmed well. He says, don't worry, we always adjust the exterior doors at trim-out, but I just can't really see how he can since they are fully caulked in and painted on the outside by the time he gets there. I haven't really given it a test to see what happens if I let a door go way out of wack and then see if they can fix it... And I always ask my trim guy "how was the framing" and thus far, he has always said "no complaints".
Edited 10/14/2005 6:47 am ET by Matt
Matt,
Here's the "Framer Friendly" method of framing door and window openings I was taught.
Frame the Jack and King studs 3 1/2" wider and 1/4" taller than the final RO. Add a Trimmer Stud to each side with only 1 nail on the face at eye level and leave the head 1/4" proud. Cut the Trimmer Studs 1 3/4" shorter than the Jack studs so it will have a 1/4" gap below the door Head Trimmer, which also only has 1 proud nail in it's face.
Whereas sill plates usually get 1 nail to the floor in each bay, at the openings place no nails in the 3 bays on each side. Do set 2 nails in the sill inside the RO about 6" from the Trimmer Studs, leaving them 1/8" to 1/4" proud.
This lets the framers do what they do best, which is Rock'n'Roll and move on to the next wall. They don't have to be any more level than their layout marks and the racking of the walls that one ties into.
It also allow the door installer to compensate for any warping the studs incur as they dry out.
The first thing the installer does is check the wall for in and out plumb. If he has to he can pull the 2 nails in the sill and plumb the wall, and nail off the sill in the 3 bays on each side.
Now he can add another face nail for temporary stability, plumb the Trimmer Studs and level the Head Trimmer, then Hook Nail all three trimmers in place.
Before you ask, a Hook Nail is a 16d driven into the Jack Stud about 1 1/4", bent over to the Trimmer Stud so the head is in the middle 1/3 of the width of the stud, (more or less,) then an 8d is driven into the Trimmer Stud next to the 16d's head and bent over its' shank. Two on each side at each hinge and the strike plate, 1 on each side elsewhere, and that door frame is solid!
It takes longer to explain than to do and if 1/4" isn't enough to compensate for any problems, you've got some real quality issues with your framers.
The first time I encountered this system was on a 300+ room addition to the Ojai Valley Inn. IIRC, it took about 7 minutes per opening to provide a perfectly square, plumb, and level RO for the installer.
SamT
Thanks for the explanation although I don't understand what purpose those "hook nails" serve. To tell you the truth though, your method would be more useful if I were running a framing crew - which I am not. Like I said the guys I use to frame are not that bad, and their frames can most always be beat into submission anyway since they are normally only off a bit. Also, during frame punchout I walk around the house with a level, a tape measure and a heavy magic marker. Those guys get to hate my magic marker... :-) I like to use green because it stands out, is unique, but is not as abrasive as red ;-)
Matt,
Assuming for the sake of argument that the framers did a perfect job and everything was square when the "Door Frame Adjuster" man arrived, the Trimmer studs would be adjusted to leave a 1/4" gap between them and the Jack Studs. In practice, that gap usually is narrower at one end than the other.
The Hook nails are a way of firmly fastening the Trimmer Studs to the Jacks without them being in contact with each other.
You wind up with a square opening (the Trimmers) inside a not so square opening (the Kings, Jacks and regular Header) with the inner square 'floating.'
SamT
Are you saying that there would be, essentially 3 studs on each side of a door RO? A king, a jack, and what you are calling a trimmer?
Matt,
Three.
Correct.
Cost to implement = 3 1/2" extra header, 2 1/2 studs (Header Trimmer) and no more than 3 man minutes of framers time.
ROI = no more ten minutes to make any RO good, average time , 5 or less minutes. Any RO can be expanded without reframing up to 3" by changing out the Trimmers for 5/4, 4/4, 3/4 etc. The Door Setter does not have to carry a 16# sledge around. The Door Setter does have to nail off the sill in six bays.
SamT
The whole idea makes sense but for building houses I can't go with extra lumber ($7/per door RO?), extra time for the framers, and trying to teach/tell framers how to frame. Maybe on a commercial job where budgets are large and it is more common to use unusual methods - which it sounds like it is were you saw it. Interesting technique though.
SamT, I see that method as a colossal waste of time, energy and resources.
On most houses we frame, we have about 40 or 50 rough openings. Your method would add about 100 studs per house. Essentially, we'd be wasting about one house every ten.
All the talk about rough openings seems to imply that there is a big problem with them, when the real truth is that maybe one RO in 50 needs adjustment. The adjustment can come in the form of the big hammer, but it also can usually be done with a normal hammer, even a wimpy finishing hammer. I mention the use of a 16# sledge hammer to make a point, not because I always carry one into a trim job.
I just don't see the need for such a substantial waste of lumber, especially given the rarity of a problem.
blue
BeDevil,
Sorry, bud, but there ain't no way I would offer that technique for you to consider.
I suspect that the industry wide ratio is closer to 1 in 5 needs adjusting and I have personally been on a large job where it was 1 in 10 that did NOT need it.
Unfortunately, most "Framers" in our industry are not Carpenters any more and need to be taken out of as many "Accurate" loops as possible.
SamT
I've talked to my interior trim guy about this situation. The interior doors he hangs are all perfect and shimmed well. He says, don't worry, we always adjust the exterior doors at trim-out, but I just can't really see how he can since they are fully caulked in and painted on the outside by the time he gets there. I haven't really given it a test to see what happens if I let a door go way out of wack and then see if they can fix it... And I always ask my trim guy "how was the framing" and thus far, he has always said "no complaints".
I think this last statement pretty wells sums it up gents.
You guys are all beefing about the framer f'in up the door frames and it's plainly obvious that you don't understand what the framer is really responsible for.
The framer's responsibility ends with the exterior brickmold. The fact that it happens to be attached to the jamb is meaningless. The interior carpenter will properly shim and nail the jamb. You really don't want rough framers getting involved with the finished aspects of your interior millwork, do you? Think about it: is the door jamb inside or outside?
One of the very serious problems with "pre-hung" doors is that we are setting them in some very green, wet and swollen wood. If we "properly" shim them and nail the jambs, you are asking for some serious problems if you think that this is the last time you should think about tweaking them. What happens when you put the heat to the frame and everything shrinks? Will you still think that those shims are properly doing the job? Aren't you all being a little bit unrealistic? Or, maybe the framer should come back on a service call, the day that the trimmer wants to install the casing and the framer should install shims that are actually tight?
Quit all the whining about the framer not setting the doorjambs right...it's not their job!
I've installed a few thousand door jambs. I always do it the same way. I set it in the opening. I center it in the rough opening. If the gap margin is uniform on the inside, I tell the outside guy to nail it in one corner ( I really don't care which corner, but we normally start on the hinge side. We check the brick mold for plumb. If it's plumb, we nail the four corners. We then sight the brick molds for straight. We nail the molds straight.
Were done. Six or eight nails. I block the door open. On come doors, we don't bother to take the shipping screw out and the door remains closed till the trimmer does his thing.
Please remember: we are only nailing the brickmold. We are not door manufacturers. We are not door hangers. We are not jamb hangers. We are not trimmers. All of those things are someone else's responsibilty.
Also remember, the brick molds are plumb and presumably level (we don't actually check this because remember, the margins are equal on the inside). If the bricklayers or sider installers do their job correctly, they will leave a 1/4" caulk space around the brickmolds. This will give you guys a possible 1/2" adjustment! Do you really think that a door will need more than a 1/2" adjustment if the margins are equally spaced all the way around?!!!
Now, there are other issues that will affect how the door looks when the trimmer gets there. There are settling issues after the weight of the roof and drywall are added. YOu have insulation guys improperly foaming around the jambs. We had a bricklaying crew jamb a 3/4 shim under one edge of the door to jack it up so it would match his unlevel courses and make his lintel look correct.
All of thes "complaints" we unheard of around here when the union required the same carpenter contractor to handle both the rough and finish of each house contracted.
Nowadays, I find myself caulking minorly defective exterior wood because I know the painter won't do any prep. Now you guys want me to do the trimmers shimming. Should I start laying the brick and installing the cabinets too?
Whiners!
blue
As you can tell, I get tired of hearing how f'd up the framers are, especially when it's coming from trimmers who want everything perfect. If you guys want a perfect rough, why don't you come out with your jackplanes. I'll order 8 x 8's and you can plane them into perfectly straight studs! Of course, you'll have to sit and watch them airdry for a few decades before we can start the planing.
blue
Blue,
I'm sure you've not directed your response to me.
All I know about framing is leaving as close to perfect a job as humanely possible. Pretty much assuring even the dumbest of finishers could produce a beautiful thing.
We did set the doors with the brickmould, but we used a level on the doors. The windows were set in the sheeted frame after squaring.
I admit I started out directing this to the "don't give a #### framers", but quickly it was pointed out, there's a lot of responsibility to go around. I guess my beef would be to all that touched this 8' door I had to make right. Somebody sometime should look at this door and give it a chance. The whole group from the guy that nailed it in to the blind sumbitch that finished it didn't give a ####. Neither did the people that lived in the place for 10 yrs. Now you want to jump on someone that whines ? Nobody's uttered a peep till this point.
Remember, this is in the hypothetical.
How's things?
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Relax Cal, this is just one of my generic whines about trimmers who whine about framers.
The point is that not everything is going to be right, but not everything is the framers fault either. The reason we call them "rough openings" is because they are allowed to be bigger and rougher than the finished opening. If I was a trimmer, my only beef would be if the framers didn't make the rough opening big enough for me to get the door plumb and level. I wouldn't give a hoot if the rough frame was out of plumb by 1/2", as long as I could get the finished door right. I don't care about the rough margins looking out of whack.
Most people get too carried away wanting the rough frames to be the finished frames. They have lost sight of what really matters and instead focus on how and what "they would do". I've had superintendents criticize our rough openings because they were 1/8'' tight, or 1/8" wide. These types of supers are "book" supers. They have no idea what really needs to be checked.
Anyways, thanks for starting this topic and giving me a place to vent.
blue
No offense taken jim.
After farting around with that big door and the rest of the entries that were installed poorly, I myself had to go somewhere and let it out. Working alone, here's the place. I also had a hope that some novice or new to the trade guy might stumble across this thread and get that urge to go the extra qtr inch and do it right the first time. The closer you get to perfect in each step, the better chance the end result will be ok.
I agree wholeheartedly on your take on rough framing. The things that need a higher degree of precision are set in that frame. That setting is where the most care should be taken. As close to good as possible with the trimmer fine tuning it b/4 it's closed up and further adjustment is almost impossible.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Cal! What's with the race riot in Toledo? Cant you buckeyes get along?
Nice win today against MSU.
blue
jim, beats me. Worked away from the news today, caught a brief bit b/4 we went out tonight.
As you probably know more by now than me, all I can say is the 400 ft of drive is so far keeping them (?) at bay.
I do know that word on the street has it, the origins are from one white guy (family) and one black guy (family) that were neighbors and it's been constant conflict. This escalated into the socialists (?) raising a bit of a stir, then the white supremacists moving up the ante. A sheduled white power march on the edge of polish town, maybe even didn't really come to pass (march) and then some "gang" members en masse started a bit of trashing on the edge of said polish village. After that, curfew at 8 and news at eleven.
Won't be going down for any sausage and peirogi's in the near future. Truly a black mark on Toledo.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Don't worry, I'm not one of those supers who points it out when something is 1/8" out... And I understand that the RO doesn't have to be square but the exterior wall does have to be plumb.
On the other hand I'm not sure it is necessary that anyone rush to the aid of any framer who's work might come under scrutiny - any more than someone should say that superintendents are called that because they are all super :-) or that trim carps fix all the sins of the world.
BTW - I framed for a few years full time myself... way back when. I'm not some college boy who started his first day on the job site "in charge". And I'm also the kind of guy who doesn't mind adding a hurricane clip here or a jack stud shim there to make the BI happy, nor do I feel the need to notify my subs every time I lift a finger.
Sons of owners often start "in charge" on day one. Or at least sort of in charge. Not college boys, typically.
Who do you know that would let someone do that? IMHO, a manager or owner that would put a green new guy, no matter what his degree or how smart, in charge of tradesmen and subs in residential construction, ought to have his head examined.
Some of the national home builders prefer to hire their superintendents right out of college, although I would imagine they would start as an assistant super. That way the company can mold them into the kind of superintendent that they want them to be. No previously trade experience insures that their judgement is not clouded by things they have learned on site. I interviewed with a few, and a guy I used to ride with is one and told me that my background reduced my chance of a successful interview. He did get me an interview with his company though. Truth be told, I wasn't sure I wanted to work in that environment except as a learning experience - not to mention the fact that I did need a job at the time too.
This way, (hypothetically) if the corporate construction specs does not specify sheathing paper under the siding, it may not even occur to the new to the field super that there may be a better way (be it more expensive).
For example, pertaining directly to this thread, I know that a RO for an interior door that is 1/4" narrow is probably going to work OK provided that everything is plumb. The book super Blue referred will possibly only know that the opening is supposed to be 2" wider than the door size called out on the plan - he may likely have no knowledge of the +- factor.
That's exactly what I'm refferring to Matt.
I've seen the white hats do their rounds. They have their clipboards. If they step into a pile of dung, they have to consult with their supervisors to get the information on how to wipe it off.
blue
Amen, my super has levels, squares, tape measure and knows framing. We check frames together. Old timers and wiose youngsters know this is of far greater value than the time spent.
There has been much said, my thoughts are that a good framer shoud be able to hang exterior doors (mine does a great job), and the superintendent or builder should be qualified to check the frame / doors / windows.
I know a builder who never checks his work, ask the framer to work out problems and is rarely onsite. His framer installed 42 fixed glass windows in a stucco home inside out. The stucco was installed before discovery, and cost to fix exceeded $10,000.00 (see statement "old timers know this is of far greater value than the time spent").
Regarding exterior doors, I have my framer install the exterior doors nailing only the brickmold or exterior trim. There is so much activity between the framing and trim out that if the door is set permanantly, it may get knocked out of plumb and level. When the trim man shows up he knows it is his responsibilty to shim and set the door, making whatever adjustments are necessary, prior to installing the casing. It has been a sucessful system for 15+ years.
Man I'm dying reading this thread.....try it in Dade county, where the MAXIMUM gap between RO & door frame is, by code, 1/4 TOTAL!!!!.....Blueyedevil would be keeling over!!!!
Why would that be. Here and elsewhere you need to tighten up the R.O. to maintain the 20 min. fire rating on the prehung, steel door/frame.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Hurricane code.....