Do we need an archy for a ‘Master Plan’
Hello All,
We seem to be a little bit flustered in our old house renovation. We thought we could do it all-the intelligent planning+the work but its not looking that way anymore. We are just overwhelmed by the work and planning. We don’t have a ‘master-plan’ and because of this I am afraid that we will end up making expensive mistakes that will require us to redo work.
I’ve been doing some reading and architects apparently do this? Draw up a master-plan of the house eventhough we are not going to be able to afford to redo the entire place all at once.
My wife has set up a couple of interviews with local architects next week but I am torn on whether we need one or not. In retrospect having an archy draw up a ‘master-plan’ before we did ANYTHING to the house seems like an obvious idea…
The bottom floor is mostly figured, the heating system is figured, the foundations been redone- alot of the bad framing has been fixed.
The middle floor: we need help with the kicthen, den, bath remodel, deck.
Top floor we need help with figuring out how to fit a master-bath, master bedroom, laundry room, kids room and enough closet-storage space. The roof and a dormer needs to be rebuilt (maybe add a matching dormer on other side of house) and we’d like to move the collar ties up and or remove them completely for a cathedral ceiling.
What think y’all?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Replies
Considering the extent of the work you plan to do I would say yes.
If you can't/don't want to do a plan yourself, my vote would be firmly in the "Yes" column. A long-term plan is a must when you plan to do a house over time. (DAMHIKT)
It prevents having to tear out stuff you just did to accomodate later work. For example, you say you have the first floor and heating system "figured" -- does that include planning for, and installation of, all ductwork, plumbing and electric, including data lines, that will be needed for the upper floor(s) prior to closing up the walls? (Especially important if you're dealing with a kitchen and bath -- lots of wiring and plumbing involved. If not, you're gonna get good at repairing recently-installed drywall. ;-)
I have used architects for this several times. They simply charge hourly. Note that you probably don't need detailed plans at this stage -- only floor plans and elevations so you'll know where to avoid erecting roadblocks to your future work.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Yea a good archy doesnt come cheap I know but i've already shot myself in the foot once with this redo.... We had to go thru a 'major design review' by the city that took weeks and that cost ~$2000. If I had the master plan first they would of reviewed everything at once and it would of cost the same... Now I'll probably have to pay the $2000 again because I want to add/remove windows and doors and add a dormer...
Luckily we have a chase thru all three floors so going back and adding wiring won't be too horrible not that I don't want to do it. But thats part of it-we are doing radiant heating and yes thats all planned out and we know what we need to do for the rest but its not 'planned out'
I don't think that we are incapable of doing it, its just that we don't seem to have the time to do it. I think that if we had a well thought out master plan it would be a net time-saver.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
BTDT.
Our solution was found in an interior designer. Not just any designer, but one that really should have been a licensed GC. This one was a real breath of fresh air compared to others we've known. If you were closer to Laguna Nigel, I'd pass her name on.
But I'd also suggest a house designer rather than a archy at this point. Unless you figger you got some complicated engineering going forth, I don't see the need.
Man if you could find someone like that near me I'd kiss your feet!!
My wife interviewed a ton of interior designers and kitchen designers and we were super not impressed. FFS we don't need help picking our 'color schemes'.
We tried to go with one designer who uses Chief Arch but eventhough I gave her electronic files of the floorplans to import insisted on doing the sketches by hand? She didn't catch simple things like in her design there wasnt room for someone to sit at the dinner table while someone else was cooking at the stove!!!
Arrrgh...I guess that's why we're looking at archys now...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
that's funny ... one of the things i like to do for my customers with Chief Architect is measure their furniture and put the furniture in the plan
then they can see with the 3-d walkthru how things will really workMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
What do you think about my 'budgeting' question? How do I get that concept across without sounding like a Mr. MoneyBags?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
i went back thru the posts and couldn't find your question about "budgeting "
care to restate it ?
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I guess not really a 'question'
Budget talks always go weird with us...we don't have a budget...we will pay what ever it takes to get the job done right (in the Fine Homebuilding best practices sense) and if we don't have enough then we just put off doing the job until we do.
Now when it comes to spec'ing things like fixtures-fancy countertops that gets even more crazy cause we'll pay what it takes to get real quality equipment that will last...that makes peoples heads explode?!?!?! They want a NUMBER then they will jigger all the little pieces to come within a range of that number. I don't want gold plated fixtures but I want them to be high quality and long lived.
So many Mikes on this thread I've counted 3 different ones so far.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
well.... keep interviewing... and ask to see work of a similar nature
i'm biased to design / build... as you can see from the response... what you are looking for is obviously out there ... and the person / firm is just someone you haven't met yet
don't commit to the first one.... look at their portfolio and ask to talk to customers who have had "master plans " done
the budget will take care of itself
if you want design only.... piffen is well versed in victorians... maybe he'd like to get involved...
he's moving into design only......getting away from design / buildMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Piffen is exactly the type of designer I would be looking for here. I didn't realize he was shifting focus. Good for him! The design world could sure use more of the both of ya.
Daniel, we do master plans all the time for large residential projects. One is just finishing up phase two right now--new kitchen and master bedroom was phase one, new screened porch (with fireplace) and master bathroom was phase two. After working on it for several months, I finally found out what their budget was.
Basically, like you, whatever it takes to do the job right. Our job is to show them how all the parts fit together and different ways the project could be phased with cost implications for all the options. It was a ton of work on our end, but we got paid for it all as part of the design fee, which totalled just over 8% of phase one and two. Additional work is not likely to need much design work but the groundwork was laid to make it easier when they do it.
FWIW, we use 2D Autocad with Sketchup or hand-drawn sketches for concept drawings. I wish we had one of the 3-D programs but it's a big investment. We try to keep our overhead very low and for all three of us to purchase and learn a new program simutaneously (the only way the boss will do it, he says) would be well over $10K, and the way we draw gets the point across.
So short story is, don't worry about not having a budget, the right designers won't care and will do what you ask. Worry less about what tools they use and more about how well they listen to you and what questions they ask, and what their past projects look like.
Sounds like a sweet job to me, wish I lived closer and could help you out.
FWIW, we use 2D Autocad with Sketchup or hand-drawn sketches for concept drawings. I wish we had one of the 3-D programs but it's a big investment. We try to keep our overhead very low and for all three of us to purchase and learn a new program simutaneously (the only way the boss will do it, he says) would be well over $10K, and the way we draw gets the point across.
I think the full version of Chief is <$3000 with each additonal license $700 thats way less than $10,000 and it will do all your 2-d stuff to right?
I don't work for the company or anything but I just sat thru their demo.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
We haven't looked closely at Chief (but I did sit through their demo too!)-- I didn't realize additional seats were only $700. The other guys in the office like ArchiCAD which from what they say is $3-4K/per, plus the time it would take to train us, minus the money we'd be earning if we weren't in training. In this economy, we are lucky to have work coming in, not necessarily the best time to start on a new path if the current one is working.
But like I said, I wish we could do it--I bring it up as often as I reasonably can--and have for five years. Not being the decision-maker is a tough position sometimes. If it was my company I think I would go for it.
get a free demo copy of it and play around with it off work then once you can do a couple of things with it show the boss.
From the demo it sure looks like the bees knees.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
mike.... email me your address... i can mail you a couple of color prints that might help you make your case to the bossMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks Mike! That's very generous of you. Can you email them as a .pdf? We have a large-format color printer. MMaines at finelinesmaine dot com.
BTW, love your new photo thread--
Nobody calls architects 'archy's' ;o)
Yes we do master planning of phased residential projects
Yes we don't work cheaply.
Jeff
>Yes we don't work cheaply.<
thought your profile said non-profit charity or some sort.
:)
LOL I'd enjoy the tax break there ...
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
Well I've heard arch-i-tects refered to as archys here before....not that I care its just to dang hard for me to spell it...
What do you think about using a computer drafting program vs. doing all the drawings by hand? Am I out of my tree to not want use someone who still 'draws by hand'?
How detailed do you get with your master plans? The guy today seemed like for him the master plan was just painting the project with a broad brush...ideally I would like to have a complete set of plans showing everything that needs to be done, everything completely specified and the plans ready to turn in for permitting. Is that way to much to expect?
thanks,
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
dan.... did you ask to see samples of his master plans ?
did you get some previous customers that you can talk to about how they liked working with him ?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Saw samples of his work but I don't want to waste everyones time by talking to his previous customers until we get his proposal back and if it seems like we want to think more seriously about using him.
We're not tire kickers you know but you have to tap them a little bit just to see if this guy is going to be worth our time checking him out further.
I'm still hung up on his 'doing everything by hand' way of drawing...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I'm definitely a monster ;o)
What do you think about using a computer drafting program vs. doing all the drawings by hand? Am I out of my tree to not want use someone who still 'draws by hand'?
I've been drawing with CAD since 1985 - there's no reason to draw by hand. Generally speaking, my CAD drawings look like hand drawings anyway ;o)
How detailed do you get with your master plans?
Depends on the project - in some cases it's wiser to wait for the details of future phases since goals and constraints may change.
The guy today seemed like for him the master plan was just painting the project with a broad brush...ideally I would like to have a complete set of plans showing everything that needs to be done, everything completely specified and the plans ready to turn in for permitting. Is that way to much to expect?
Well I think that would be a bit on the unusual side - more typically you would see developed DESIGN plans, but probably not CONSTRUCTION plans, for future phases. Why? Because the development of construction plans is often 35-45% of the cost (fee) and therefore should wait for confirmation of the design (and any changes) in the future.
Jeff
My hand drawings look like they are done on computer.
but the question is how quickly can you provide a revision/change?
As fast as Jimmy Johns delivers a sandwich.
I'm getting into this discussion a bit late and frankly with all the good points having been made I'm not sure how much I can add to it but...
If I were asked by you to interview for you project the first thing I need to know is what is your vision for the completed project, your master plan. (For me this applies to a minor addition or complete gutting and rebuilding). Any Architect working in residential knows how badly a finished project can look if there isn't a cohesive plan. You've already stated that you're doing this in phases, as time and budget allow and that's fine. That goes to your Master Plan. As each phase is completed it must allow for the next to start without effecting the one before or at least minimally. This means the structure, finishes, construction details and all utilities.
Part of every contract that I submit has a provision that allows me to "explore", if you would, the existing conditions. (You mentioned different wall thicknesses). I have found double walls, no walls, concealed masonry, etc. A clear picture of what you are creating is predicated on what you have and how best to alter that to accomodate the new layout.
I would offer that you are looking for a 'design professional'. Could be any of one of the ones suggested by the other posters, they are all good possible resources. You are setting the standard...and paying the bill ;)
CAD or 'by hand'? I still draw but am in transition to CAD. Still your choice, but some professionals charge more for CAD, some don't. Drawings prepared this way allows for better communication with you, so there is that advantage.
(I've had several clients frame my drawings and display them. It's what I do and have done for the last 35yrs so I better be pretty good at it. I'll take my humble pill now).
Loved you "first" project and look forward to the results on this one. Only the best.
ciao, ted "You can have it fast, good or cheap. You can only have two of the three. Fast and good, it won't be cheap. Good and cheap, it won't be fast. Fast and cheap, it won't be good. Now, what's your choice?"
Dirty turk, I like your view on this whole matter. You are a very wise man.
"I've been drawing with CAD since 1985 - there's no reason to draw by hand. "
Jeff,
Sorry, but I have to disagree to a limited extent (and I also have been using CAD for about as long). Virtually all my plans start of as hand, pencil and paper sketches and usually, are but not always finalized on CAD.
Far easier and more creative to erase and redraw a line than do it with a mouse. No different than writing. First drafts always on paper, finals on the computer, sometimes alot of back and forth.
WorkshopJon
workshop....
what CAD are you talking about ?.... it does make a difference....
also.. a lot of this depends on one's early training..
i learned perspective and hand drawing in '69... stayed on the boards until AutoCad came out and got tooled up for AC in about '85.... 286 computer... color monitor.. 36" plotter with 3 pens
tried it for almost a year and went back to the boards....
in about '95.. i saw Chief Architect ..... now almost all my concepts start and finish in Chief... it is just so much more accurate and fast
you draw in a scale of 12" = 1 ft... and the 3-d camera allows ANY perspective youo can imagineMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
I've been away from the board for awhile, good to see you're still here. Your quote "got tooled up for AC in about '85.... 286 computer... color monitor.. " exactly the same with me (do you remember how you had to add the numerics coprocessor to get it to work?), and compared to todays offerings, I don't know how we even did it back then. You may be correct about Chief A. I've never used it. My last 15 years have been on EDS Unigraphics, which is worlds apart.
My point was simply that my most creative/inspirational ideas often come lying in bed with a pencil, a pad, and often a CAD printout of what I'm planning on working on and sketching on that. Each to his own. CAD definitely has its place, I'm just not sure if it's at the planning stage.
WorkshopJon
"CAD definitely has its place, I'm just not sure if it's at the planning stage."
Jon, there are enough trains of thought on the use of a CAD program to have someone write another book.
As I said before, I am in transition to AutoCad. It does take time, a lot of time. I don't have too many evenings open nowadays. My rationale for the partial changeover is that when I develop commercial projects there are several layers of information that CAD helps to minimized drawing time on. I do generate many hand sketches for proposals, sometimes right in the clients office, it helps with their input and helps to open them up to other possible ideas.
I can generate a floor layout and send it over to my Mechanical, Structural or Electrical Engineer and they can do their work over mine. If there are changes in any area all of us get on the same page by internet.
The biggest plus is a project with a repetitive floor plan, think 3 or more story buidling. Every floor is essentially the same. Redrawing the whole floor? NOT!
I said partial changeover because I have found that the "sterile" nature of a CAD produced drawing in a bit of a put-off for my residential clients. They see a human hand in the work and, let's face it, any residential project is very personal. It's a bit of an intrusion in the client's personal life and seeing a handdrawn plan puts them as ease. (The Evil Computer knows what they want...).
Biggest and most distant client was a 23,000sq ft office buildout within a 275K sq ft factory for a company with HQ in Taiwan. My associate Architectural firm generated the CAD dwgs and sent them to Taiwan via internet for approval. (They maintained a 24hour staff over there). Now that was fun! ! ! Oh, they spoke better English than some of the workers. (I would have loved to have CapMac with me....)
(First CAD I worked with had no name, circa 1973, and required each line to literally be programmed in. Never did work all that well but....)
Be well, ciao, ted "You can have it fast, good or cheap. You can only have two of the three. Fast and good, it won't be cheap. Good and cheap, it won't be fast. Fast and cheap, it won't be good. Now, what's your choice?"
You are really hiring the architect for his/her creative vision and ability to understand and translate who you are and want into a master plan. I wouldn't get too hung up on how the drawings are created.
FYI, ours is a by-hand person and no complaints at all. Too bad her business model doesn't line up with your needs...
When it comes to residential, we've got a building designer here in Abilene that can pick up a pencil and outdesign, and out pace most of the local architects with their 3D BIM modeling software. I reiterate, when it comes to residential... It's a whole different scale than the commercial work most architects specialize in. Check that, it's a different mindset all together. I personally can't fathom going back to the board for anything but my art, but no, I wouldn't view that way of working as a deal breaker. In fact, for this project I might view it as an asset. Chances are, like a millwright with a wooden plane and worn chisels in his bag instead of a shop full of high dollar machinery it may be a clue to the very character and hands on old world style your project calls for. On the other hand, he may just be too lazy and stubborn to grow beyond his limitations. It's probably worth digging a little deeper. That's an easy flaw to uncover.
I've got one or two demos of CA and of Softplan, which I have played around with some. They do seem easy to learn compared to Autocad.
There was an architect who worked in our office for maybe six months or a year who came in with his own copy of Archicad, so the boss (actually bosses, our VP/bookkeeper has to be won over too, and she doesn't open the purse often) has seen what 3-D plans look like.
I even dragged my boss to JLCLive a couple years ago, with my main goal showing him the Softplan and CA booths.
He's a great guy, excellent salesman and honest as they come, couldn't ask for a better boss. I shouldn't give up...just worn out from five years of trying to convince him that object-based modeling is the way to go.
Most architects charge a commission based on a percentage of construction costs which, given your approach, is going to be a bear to figure out. You may find one willing to work on an hourly rate but, just like a contractor, they are going to need to have some pretty clear ideas about the scope of work and the hours involved so they can schedule the rest of their workload around it. Obviously, if they aren't worried about the rest of their workload... move along.
Being educated as an architect and now working around architects everyday I'd have to say the answer to your question is a resounding yes (of course i'm biased). You've already stated all the obvious reasons why you might need one but another thing architects (at least a good one) can do for you is offer suggestions you might not have otherwise thought of yourself. They have a handle on the newest materials and can direct you to contractors or subs if you need one.
A lot of architects now specialize in energy and sustainable design and can help you make choices now that could reap big dividends in the future. Not to mention their familiarity with potential code issues and historic preservation regulations, etc. In your neck of the woods finding a decent architect shouldn't be hard to do. You have Berkeley next door and across the bay there are hundreds more.
Some here have mentioned hiring an Interior Designer which might be appropriate in some situations but with your description of the problem I'd say this is a time when an architect is favored.
If you need referrals I can point you to some architects that I know of out there.
Edited 11/13/2008 8:35 pm ET by ted
Thanks Ted I appreciate the feedback.
How about some pointers on how to interview the arch.?
We've got one coming over and I admit I need help seperating the wheat from the chaff.
The wife does the initial search to find the local arch most reccomended for the kind of thing we want to do so we've weeded out tons already.
thanks,
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
JeffinPA has made some good points. Look at examples of their previous work. Ask to see completed projects. Ask how your situation is different from others they have worked on (every job is different). Do they have recommended subs they like to work with? How big is their office? What do they specialize in, do they do a variety of types of work? I think you can get a good handle on an architect by visiting their office and seeing how involved the architects are on projects. Sometimes the owner only does conceptual design and then hands it off to a staff for project development. Sometimes the principal architect doesn't even participate in the design or construction process but is there to oversee business operations. Sometimes it's a one man show and its an architect with several hats. I think what is most important factor finding someone you feel comfortable developing a rapport with.
The things I've pulled from this group to ask an arch. were (in no particular order)
Most contractors are of the opinion that the cost estimates from arch. are not tied to reality. What are you going to do to convince me that yours are?
A common complaint I've heard from contractors is that the arch does not listen to the customer and designs what he/she wants-thinks is best. Convince me that you are not going to do that.
I've heard from many quality contractors that information gets lost when it goes from the customer to the arch to the cad jockey back to the customer causing unnessessary rewrites and delays. How involved are you in the design-drafting process and what will you do to assure this bad game of telephone won't happen.
Show me several recent expamples of projects similar to mine and please provide me with references for same.
Several contractors that I've talked to felt that the arch. created unnessessary delays in the project. What can we expect for turn-around-time for designs-redraws-ect.
That's about it can you add any?
One thing I wasnt super stoked about was the dude pulled up in a ~$90,000 Porsche which instantly made me think he wasn't really 'my kind of people'.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Having had all hats on (architect, Builder, owner) I think your list is looking really looking at things from a contractor-centric viewpoint. Which is understandable because most of the information you've gleaned from this forum and this thread in particular has been from builders. But from my experience an architect can actually be your ally when dealing with an unruly contractor. Some builders would find an architect a hassle to deal with (another set of eyes to watch over the workmanship) or someone with a sense of design and proportion telling them what something they've done doesn't look quite right and needs to come out etc.
I'm not saying architects are the lords of the project but as a designer I get sort of turned off when I'm working for the contractor and all I hear is their B.S. about the architect this and the architect that.
Hi Ted,
Well since I am acting as the GC and we are doing most of the work ourselves I think having a contractor centric view is not totally out of line.
We got our first proposal back and wow we were a little bit surprised by the cost. We don't have any frame of reference yet so I'll concede that maybe we are just ignorant.
This arch. came back with a fixed cost of $12,000 to do a 'master plan' and another $12,000 to do the permit drawings.
For the master plan I 'think' they are going to do as-builts, then its design-plan a kitchen, bath, deck on the middle floor and design-plan the master bed-bath-laundry-kids room& bath on the top floor. We are not asking them to examine every inch of every bit of the house...
So $24,000 for permit ready plans when we are already 1/3 way thru the job seems a bit much to us. It that ends up being a reasonable cost then well, we'll just have to continue on doing it ourselves.
We maybe have the kitchen mostly figured out and a good cab shop with a designer is probalby all we need. The bath on the second floor really can't be changed much besides replacing old with new. We've done a deck before on our own so we can do that.... I guess we were temporaily lost in the fantasy that we could afford a pro to help us out...
Its really the top floor that we need the help with.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
As intelligent as you are, I have a hard time believing that you aren't capable of doing the planning yourself.
Could you maybe back off the work for a while, and focus on the planning? Maybe that would give you some breathing room...
Not trying to argue, but good design has little to do with intelligence sometimes. I know some really smart people who can't do "design" to save their lives! Compare the typical engineer-designed building to one designed by a good archi -- one looks like a box, the other, a building that makes an artistic statement. Sure, they'll both stand up, but . . . .
I have no doubt that the OP is intelligent enough to "design" something that won't fall down. Only he can say if he thinks he/they have enough artistic talent and experience to design something that maximizes functionality and looks, within the constraints of their budget.
IMHO, a good architect is usually worth his salary in the long run. I can't count the number of times I've seen folks throw money down the drain by doing additions or renovations that, while they pass code, look like carp. Instead of getting a decent return on their investment, they just end up building the next owner's demo issue and reducing the property value rather than increasing it.
That said, the master plan should be on paper first, no matter who does it.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I don't think that we are incapable of doing it, its just that we don't seem to have the time to do it. The work plus the good detailed planning I think that if we had a well thought out master plan it would be a net time&money-saver.
I wish we could back off the work right now but we've got a deadline approaching and we need to have heat in the house before the end of the year.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Dan....... an architect specializing in remodeling victorians
myself.... we often do master plan design for our customer... especially if they start to talk about a laundry list of things they want to do
step one is a measured drawing of what exists and how it is put together
step two is to sit down with the customer and talk about their needs , their budget.. their long term plan
most architects / designers are now working in 3-d CAD... but some still are working with paper only..... i think it's important to work with someone who can offer 3-d.. it allows you and your wife to virtually walk-thru the new design and see the changes
a caveat... the more detail you require, the more time spent in drawing, measuring , and designing......
but..... the design is where it all starts... the best contractor in the world can't rescue a poor design
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Yea the wifes sending out emails and interviewing folks about their experience with Vics...
I've got my scaled floor plans that I laboriously drew up in TurboCad...They are close enough for me to get permits from the city but I admit some things are fudged by a couple of inches...stupid interior walls with different thicknesses on different floors and in different parts of the house!!!
I won't use someone who isnt using a program like Chief Arch or something like that. They could at least import my floorplans as a starting point...wish I could afford that dang program...
Though I have to admit I like the idea of having a complete real-actual-exact set of as-builts for the house with exterior views...
Budget talks always go weird with us...we don't have a budget...we will pay what ever it takes to get the job done right (in the Fine Homebuilding best practices sense) and if we don't have enough then we just put off doing the job until we do.
Now when it comes to spec'ing things like fixtures-fancy countertops that gets even more crazy cause we'll pay what it takes to get real quality equipment that will last...that makes peoples heads explode?!?!?! They want a NUMBER then they will jigger all the little pieces to come within a range of that number. I don't want gold plated fixtures but I want them to be high quality and long lived.
Does any of that make sense?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I think a qualified architect will help you immensely. The level of detail in a victorian, yikes. You will need someone to keep the concept consistent, otherwise it can quickly turn into a hodge podge of ideas tossed together just for the sake of answering the darn question and moving on. I really like Mike's idea of putting together proper floor plans with all of your furniture and possibly some of your thoughts for down the road. I dont know what archs run in the US, but I would bank on 5% - 10% of your construction costs for professional fees if you want a beautiful set of plans properly detailed for all the millwork guys you will enevitably need.
Good luck.
I don't know that an archy would be needed at this point. Try an interior designer or two, they would probably be cheaper, and could give you some fresh eyes to help with layout & selection.
Just my opinion. If you are done with the majority of structural issues (which it looks like from your blog) and are stuck with layout issues, a designer might be a better fit.
Edited 11/4/2008 2:34 pm by nater
FWIW. I've had a design/Build company for over 35 years. I agree that you need someone to do at least, as you call it, a master plan. Not having an overall view of what you wish to accomplish, would be like taking a trip to a place you had never been without a road map. However, making major variations from that plan as you go along can get you lost same as your not following your road map or not having map at all. As you have the various trades perform the work, you will receive a lot of suggestions that may or may not be in your best interest but theirs. So keep on track.
As to whom you get to do the plan work is a hole nother can of worms. Like all trades and professions, there are good ones and not so good ones. It's my guess that a good residentially designer could do your job and for less than an architect would have to charge. Check around with your friends, trades people you have done business with, or local lumber yards. Not big box stores. Do you ever see signs at homes in you area that are being remodeled? Just check out their work and talk to the owners.
A good plan can save you money, keep your blood pressure down and keep your marriage intact.
A good plan can save you money, keep your blood pressure down and keep your marriage intact.
We thought we had a plan...or at least the outline of a good plan but we're realizing that we probably need a fresh set of eyes and some help moving from the outline pahse to a more solid well thought out actual plan.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Our first house was a big renovation (it was condemned) and it stressed my wife out to the point where it stressed me out. After I was done with I told myself never again would I do a project from the seat of my pants.
I can do projects from the seat of my pants but my wife gets stressed so I don't.
For three houses I didn't do much at all because they weren't right and I just didn't get the green light.
This latest house my wife said she wanted it "fixed up" so I started with plans I did myself with a permit. That helped form a plan for the first small project and kept it on track.
The second project is ( I'm in the middle of it) an extensive landscaping of the front yard.
I knew I wanted it done to a high level of looking good and low maintenance so I hired a landscape designer to give us a plan.
The other reason I hired a designer was to put both me and my wife under the same plan. That way she doesn't doubt me as much and argue with the price and time.
I'm just following the plan. I think plans are helpful for individuals and especially for more than one person. It puts you both on the same page.
The next project is to put a new face on the house. My wife is scared of how big it will be. So I'm hiring an architect to draw up some ideas first to give us some ideas of what can be done. then we will settle on one style and have plans drawn.
I won't do it until this happens. It helps sell my wife and lock her in. Just like a client.
I guess it locks me in too. In a different way.
Edited 11/4/2008 7:36 pm ET by popawheelie
Have you started a list of what your plans are for each room , floor by floor, yet? That ought to get you moving in the right direction and might ease some of the cost if you do find a pro to hire.
Ya we've got a breakdown on what we think we want done on each floor and what we think all the issues will be with what we want to do. Its somewhere to start at least.
Had our first meeting with an arch. this morning. It was nice of him to come over at 7:30am so we could meet and not be too late getting into work...
He seemed okay but one thing bothered me...he still does all this stuff by hand!!! I know y'all said not to be concerned with which drafting program he uses but he doesnt use a program!
We got burned on this before by the SE. He did everything by hand and when there were changes to be made it to him FOREVER to completly redraw his plans and get them back to us. This is why I am bothered by 'hand-drawers'... I'm paying by the hour and dang it just seems like a waste of everyones time.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Follow your gut. On a project like this, like the one you did before, do you think the initial plan will be what the final product will look like? My bet is it won't and there will be changes throughout the whole process.
Madmadscientist,
When you say "master plan" I understand it as an overall final destination of what you want your home to be. You may not do it all at once, because of costs, but in the end I believe you don't want to do something that would need to be redone as move on to the next step. So, your "master plan" is really not a Construction Document which contractors will bid from, and the city will review for permit submittal.
That you can do on your own, or even a good interior designer (kick me) can do that for you. However, there is value in working with an architect. There are good ones, there are bad ones, and there are those that design a monument to themselves each and every time.
If you sit down with a good architect and explain how you see yourselves living, entertaining, and experiencing your home, the good architect can help you plan how your home developes in the years that you plan on doing work to it. A good architect willl keep in mind any structural work that will need to be done.
Your proposed work does incorporate the need of someone who know how structure will be affected by all of the work. Don't get me wrong, there are a good number of contractors out there that know more than some architects do when it comes to structure and common sense.
As an architect, I hope you can sort out the good ones from the bad ones. There needs to be a chemistry between you and the architect, as there needs to be chemistry between you and the contractor.
The good architect will also provide you with the Construction Documents that you need detailing everything for your bidding and permit. You can negotiate how much involvement you want the architect to have. Not all architects are monsters. Just sort out the ones with big egos and those that are easy to talk with.
Good Luck! Hire an architect, help the economy bounce back.
I'd see if you could pay a couple different architects by the hour to walk through and review your ideas and intentions and make recommendations maybe draw up an 1/8" scale pencil sketch of what it could look like when all the parts are done.
We (builder and architect partner) just did a couple "big picture reviews" for a couple of different out-of-state clients who just wanted architectural guidance and scope of work reviews. They'll work with locals on their construction drawings but got good space planning and site design from us for less than $2,000 at $80 / hour. A full set of plans would have been $15,000 for one of these projects and $25,000 for the other. They'll hire local CAD jockeys and engineers to wrap up the working drawings and interface with the builder and local codes. Gets us in and out fast for the most fun part of the project with no structural responsibility. Nice way to work esp when the drive is outrageous and good value for the client.
Looking at the options and doing some cost-value analysis can be real helpful at the beginning of the project. As they say 90% of the opportunity is in the first 10% of the process"
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"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Its a #### shoot with architects. I have worked with some great architects who are worth their weight in gold, and just the opposite. (Seems to me, more of the opposite, so I am more leary of architects than most of the other trades)
Interview hard, and also ask around for designers, talk to kitchen designers, etc.
My best planner is my kitchen designer. We became friends over the years and she has a great eye for the whole home.
We do a lot of business together because we click together.
Ask locally and you will find the right person, but ask everyone you run into every day.
We have an interview with another arch. this Sat. He's gotten a lot of great local reviews specifically for rehabing old houses.
Do you have some specific ideas how to suss out if he's worth his salt?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
The best predictor of future performance is past performance. If you look at anyone (politics, sports, business, family, self, etc. you will see patterns that a person will likely do in the future what they have done in the past)
Ask him for specific examples of times he worked on a project similar to what you are discussing. (make sure you get specifics, ie. "Job on Jump Street" or "Jones Residence"
Ask him what challenges he had with client. How they worked thru them, etc. Then get references so you can speak to the client.
I know the Architects that are the most noteworthy around these parts charge 50% more than the average joes, ship the drawing work to the cad guys in the back room, and then review the plans when complete. The plans tend to have gross errors and not in keeping with what client requested of architect because of the old whisper down the lane. I tell Archy, Archy tells cad guy and we have a nice design that is not what client wants.
Again, ask everyone you meet. You likely will find the solution where you least expect it.
jeff ... i see a lot of that... the architect / designer.. is doing the concept then handing off to a cad jockey..
i guess in the past the architect handed off to the draftsman... so... no differentbut... i do see a lot of iterations until the homeowner just gives up because of deadlinesMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
" and then review the plans when complete. The plans tend to have gross errors and not in keeping with what client requested of architect because of the old whisper down the lane. I tell Archy, Archy tells cad guy and we have a nice design that is not what client wants."
Jeff, your statement just makes me crazy...mainly because its too often true. Every time you or anyone has a similar experience it takes my profession down another level and I end having to convince a client or contractor that what I do for them is exactly what is required and then even more.
I don't doubt that you have run into potential clients who are wary of what you do because of one or two firms in the same business. We both should be able to charge combat pay for the fights we have.
ciao, ted"You can have it fast, good or cheap. You can only have two of the three. Fast and good, it won't be cheap. Good and cheap, it won't be fast. Fast and cheap, it won't be good. Now, what's your choice?"
Yes Ted. You are right.
You need to sell why you are not like some other "businesses" that are in the same profession as you.
Yes, I am stuck as a contractor. I tell my clients that I am a contractor, and yes, we have a rotten reputation. Sometimes, i even go in behind 1 or 2 other contractors who have shamed the profession, and I have an uphill battle.
That is the same in every industry, worse in others.
There are some that are good, some that are bad, and many inbetween.