Here is a scenario…for the sake of discussion.
You get a call from a nice old lady who is about 90 years old, living in a modest home by herself. She says her radio in the kitchen does not work.
You drive fifteen minutes to her house. You great her, determine that the lightning storm the night before had most likely tripped her GFCI, reset the GFCI, explain to her what it does and how to reset it. Ask if there is any thing else? “No.” She offers to pay you, you tell her that she will receive a bill in the mail. You leave.
Ten minutes at her house.
So, does she get a bill?
What if she is known to be rich? Poor? Mean? Nice? First time customer? Regular customer?
What if you are a one man shop? Sixty man shop?
Your thoughts?
If you haven’t drawn blood today, you haven’t done anything.
Replies
Call me a sucker for old ladies because they always remind me of Grandma Carola. My little Italian grandma who loved me so much who thought that I could do no wrong and that I was a saint makes me think that I wouldn't even think about it. I mean you can't do this all the time or you would go broke. A one time deal like that I wouldn't. You'l get people who will say that business is business which they are right but if this was a one time shot I wouldn't. That's just me.
I bill right then and always take a check with me unless it's a large unexpected amount, then if needed I'll make arrangements with them on payment.
>>What if she is known to be rich?
All the more reason not to bill her, maybe she will remember you in the will.
Do you need karma or cash?
No way.
What goes around comes around.
I've received enough "freebies" to reset countless GFI's. I figure I owe her for something someone's done for me already, or something that will be done for me in the future.
I'm with you on this one... pay it forward.
No bill unless she's a royal PITA, new customer or old customer, doesn't matter. In which case (she's a PITA), I use a standard flat rate for a service call which covers up to one hour. I send bills in the mail with a SASE for smaller jobs and service call type stuff. I find that the SASE encourages people to pay very quickly, i.e, if I haven't gotten the check within a week of when I mailed the bill out, it's very, very unusual.
Edited 9/22/2005 7:34 pm ET by Demon
If this is your regular work, get paid, though you might want to give her a good discount.
If you do this infrequently, do whatever makes you feel good.
We do work for our plumber's mother who is pushing 90, a sweet old lady who taught half the town how to play the piano. I will not bill her for small jobs and give her a 30% discount on our labor on jobs over $100. She always pays promptly with an accompanying thank you note. There is nobody that I would rather work for. The best part is having homemade soup for lunch with her grandchildren who stop by to keep her company.
ten minutes? Nah. That comes out of the advertising budget. And it'll probably pay back a lot more than the yellow pages.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Karma everytime...
My dogma was run over by my karma!"If 'tis to be,'twil be done by me."
Did you feel well after you left her home? Consider it a stop at the Quick Shop for a coffee or a Mountain Dew. You made her day or month. If she calls again for something, Bill her.
If you are a 90 year old man just get her number!
Have a good day
Cliffy
I have dealt with just this sort of thing this week.
A new couple bought a house that I redid a few years ago. They are not quite 90, but they do totter when the walk.
I spent an hour with him introducing him to the house and its systems since I know the building better even than the previous owner did.
Gratis - tho he offered to pay.
Then, over the past week, he has called three times for some little thing. First time he reminds me to bill him. I say Sure thing, but in my mind, this is advertising - a fifteen minute service call.
But normally, I charge a two hour minimum.
but after the third, "come now it's an emeergency" call this AM, I sat him down, and explained that my billing is for a minimum for every cal, I tell him to wait to call me after he has been there awhile and can make a list ofneeded things - that it would be far more efficient for both of us.
He thanked me and wrote a check, then we both discussed a few items that might appear on such a list.
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You know what you feel you should do.
If you think it is a one time thing and a lady needs help, you would probably get good Karma from helping her from your heart. Regardless of her financial situation, in my humble opinion, one small gift from you enriches you in Karma.
If, on the other hand, it becomes expected, I'd make it clear up-front what the charges are. If this lady has her full faculties, she knows to pay and congratulations to you for not taking advantage of her otherwise. However, if she called over such an issue, I'd be inclined to think she is impaired and would ask for her family phone numbers. She may need more help than is apparent to them and it could help them help her better...and know she may need more help than they know.
My grandmother, in the midst of dementia, call a number of people. I want a car, I want an estimate on carpet, etc. She could not make rational decisions. It it is not setting a clock, her family needs to step up. Not charging her for a simple thing, that did indeed cost you time, gas and money, is likely a good thing in the end. I know you work and expect to be paid. Sometimes there is a "goodwill" factor. You showed it here. Even if she is wealthy and rude, you helped her. You can choose to help out of the goodness of your heart this one time, or you can rightly charge her a reasonable rate. I tend to think in this particular case, the goodwill will be the greater reward.
I've found the rude issue is totally irrelevant with impaired people - they have no clue and are not trying to screw you. I'm not excusing that, but bring the issue that they just don't realize it with no ill intent. They want to retain their independence fiercely. If it comes up again and bothers you, step out!
I know I'll be there someday, as will we all. I hope for someone who is an angel in disguise. It seems that you are, for this one instance. I'd let it go, knowing I helped a grandma who is impaired. Imparired older folk don't know they are impaired. They are fighting hard for their independence. I would. Wouldn't you? Note, you will get contintinued calls.
I'd write it off and if she calls again, her family needs to step in and if they don't know it now, you'll raise the alarm that they need to hear. Getting old stinks, but is does not necessarily mean the end of indepently living. For the sake of the lady, you did good. In the future, the family needs to know and are likely the one's who can sign the check
You did good to help the lady. It cost you, but remember it could be your grandmother. Do what seems right in in that respect, but do the lady a greater gift and make her family step up if you assess that she needs greater help. By not taking advantage of this lady, you have done a good thing, which your family would be proud.
This could be anyone's grandmother. You know in your heart what to do. Trust yourself and do a good thing when you can. The cost of doing good here is usually minimal. I'm proud of you for helping the lady and know you will figure it out. Good luck, good guy. This one instance is not about money. You know that. Trust yourself here and you'll do what is right and when to draw the line. She likely may not know, but her family, who SHOULD KNOW, may need the innocent phone call to give them the reality check. I know you are not a social worker. Just think that this could be your grandma, and do what you think is best. With a conscience, you are good to go.
I would never bill her. I have so many contacts like that you can't believe the referrals! Also pie, cookies, pickled beets etc! Well worth the stop! Also we mention someone else's cooking and they tried to outdo their friend!
If it's me or one of my guys the answer is NO. That falls under the heading of community service. I have done numerous little jobs like this in the past, taking no money. I've always been offered lunch or a cold drink, which I may or may not accept. The one thing I consistently take away is feeling good about doing something nice for someone. The one thing I always leave behind is a business card. And the payoff that comes from this type of good will always makes up for a few minutes time and a couple bucks worth in gas.
Customer goodwill....I would not bill her, either!View Image
Nah.....I woulda left her my card on the way out though.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
the dilemma comes if there's a second little service call
to preempt that I'd bill it, but as N/C "this time"
but doing good is doing good, the first one I'd comp
I like this thread...keep in mind, this is a theoretical situation that I use in my classes in trade school. Read the original post and think about the situation if I had not told you that she was 90. I've had many calls from 30-somethings who don't know about GFCI's.
If it were one of your employees who did the call and you never knew her age, the bill would've gone out, yes?
Oh, BTW, I wouldn't have billed her either, but I would've'e sent her something so she wouldn't worry about some bill that is going to come some day.If you haven't drawn blood today, you haven't done anything.
Bosn,
Great test question-tricky one. The folks here are right about goodwill and referrals. My hubby, not in the trade, has all kinds come in. He even goes to a home of an elderly person if needed. It does indeed create goodwill and referrals. You have a good point about sending something so they won't keep worrying about a bill.
How do your students fall in comparison with the responses here? Also, do you find age to be a factor in the "goodwill issue"? Would a small minimum housecall charge help cover the very simple issues for the business owner and still serve the uneducated homeowner? What I'm thinking here is maybe $25.00, but it would be credited if a larger job ensues. That could cover this type of scenario, but also address the bigger issue. How do you recommend they deal with a rude person? I treat my service providers with complete respect because they are here to help me and I know they will be more inspired to do a good job, knowing how much they are appreciated.
I'm not elderly and my auto dealer has sold me my last two vehicles specifically due to the wonderful service department, which has done just what you describe here. They also have little turn-over in the employees I've known for years. I've grown to trust them to treat me fairly and honestly and they have met that in spades. I'd be curious to know how the students compare to what you are seeing here. Do let us know. It is a chance to educate consumers.
Its really a discussion question, not a test question. You can't grade on it because there is no right or wrong. The students have had about the same response. It's hard to get a box-of-rocks to respond or participate in a discussion sometimes. Usually the top two or three students participate and the rest try to stay awake, having just come from an 8 hour work day.
I use this and other extra information in apprentice school to help them understand that their jobs do not take place in a vacuum. You can't go through life with blinders on.
When I can get a student to understand more of what faces the employer on a daily basis, he can become a better employee, and that helps the student and the employer.
I also try to get them to understand how important it is to do their jobs well and correctly, not only for their own safety but for that of their coworkers, their customers, and anyone who may come into contact with their electrical installations. There is also the liability issue and how it effects them and their employer.
This scenario crosses many topics...
You could argue that if you are a service guy and were given the job, and went to the job, then you have to turn in the ticket. You have time on it. The employer has to pay you for your time. How does he cover the cost and liability that he incurred? He had liability as soon as you pulled into her driveway. Then you entered her house, touched your tools to her GFCI, and gave her "expert advice".
What if your assessment was wrong and her house burned down the next day? What if you were right and something else caused her house to burn down the next day? Can any of this be proven? Would the family sue?
I still agree with the general opinion that you don't bill her. But there are many other aspects about this case that any contractor must consider. These considerations may not change anything, but maybe this exercise will cause someone to ask the right questions of their lawyer, or make it clear to their employees that they are to be informed of any unusual circumstances about any job.
Someone pointed out that the old lady may be senile and perhaps her family needs to be notified...sure, the contractor needs to know, needs to consider this possibility and needs to decide where his role turns from businessman to neighbor.
If you haven't drawn blood today, you haven't done anything.
Edited 9/23/2005 11:35 pm ET by bosn
Thank you, Bosn, for educating the average homeowner about what happens at the other end of a transaction and the legitimate concerns of a business owner.
I may be the one who suggested informing a family of someone who is impaired that you refer to. I certainly did that, perhaps personally considering my elderly loved ones.
You have a very good point about the decision from trading hats, so to speak, from a businessman to a neighbor. One would hope the family did know and were involved in an ideal world.
The liability issue is a strong one for me. It goes both ways. I had some folks working in the neighborhood, survey the neighbors and approached me about tree trimming. (I think they were in business on their own for the most part.) I asked for their insurance certificate, which they produced, reached their agent listed, and was informed that their insurance covered general landscaping, but anything overhead was out. I permitted them to cut down a few shrubs, but would not let them touch the trees. I also turned away a gutter cleaning person, when I asked in advance that he submit his insurance certificate for my verification, but did not produce.
You are doing a good thing. As a homeowner, I want trade folks that stay up to date on their training, are properly insured, and do quality work for my home. I am willing to pay more for that type of service, from a reputable company, than risking everything we've worked for, to get someone who is independent and bids low, without proper coverage.
In my former position in the floor covering industry, we had many people over the years that were called "trunk slammers". That meant to me, at the time, that they were folks trying to feed their family, but were not necessarily professional. They did not typically attend any free training, nor had the financial means to have proper insurance coverage or even the means to replace a botched installation job. We even had, as a distributor, a tape on professionalism available. The vast majority of folks were associated with a good firm. The better ones, including the union shops doing commercial installations, generally took advantage of the training, even though it meant the company paying the guys. We provided dinner and training at our place or theirs, if enough folks were present.
I heartily encourage the American dream of owning one's company. I do caution homeowners to check potential tradespeople out thoroughly. I also applaud those who start out right and start their own professional business. Unfortunately, many trades people have a very hard-working back and great work ethic, but could be lacking in business sense. You are helping in that way. For your newbies, a course in business training would be a great value to them. Self-employed = no health insurance, for instance. In other word, if you can't affod the business part, get your training and experience, get a good business plan, and go forth! One cannot go from point A to point C, without it and succeed from what I've seen.
As a side note, being a tradeperson with a reputable company could very well help set the stage for "going it alone", with proper planning. For the "box of rocks", please get serious about your training and business sense and take advantage of your experience. If you want to strike out on your own, wait until you are ready and primed. You can do well in that scenario, or you can risk it all if you are not prepared. If this is your job and you like it, learn all you can. Dreams often go the wrong way without a plan. I'm guessing most want to be a master at what you do. If you take advantage of eveything offered, have a good character and work ethic, you will be a winner. Learn, absorb, and get a feel for the consumer side. Some are consumers are jerks, but most folks want to do a great job and get referrals, and maybe, start their own business some day.
Good luck to you all. Folks, go for it and be the best. That is what makes all the diffenence. P.S. I don't want a box of rocks, this is your profession, be professional!
Nope, I'd leave her with a card or three.
Since you left and said bill's in the mail, mail her a letter explaining you appreciate her offer to pay for your time, but it was such a small matter there is no charge, if she or anyone she knows would be need in of your services in the future, please don't hesitate to call... Include a few business cards.
I'm not much for giving away time for free but in this case I would.
I read through the rest of the thread and made it to the part where you asked if she was 30 something... still wouldn't, wouldn't matter if it was a guy either, I think it would build good-will with a potential future customer.
Edited 9/25/2005 7:40 pm ET by CAGIV
Every time I get into this discussion some one goes away surprised at the responses of others, or at least thinking over things that they had never considered before.
I really am happy that so many people would choose to not bill someone for such a small matter.If you haven't drawn blood today, you haven't done anything.