Do you use kiln dried wood for framing?
The contractors here in my part of Northern New Jersey and the lumberyards as well, only use and carry “Green” Doug fir. When this wood shrinks it seems to cup,bow and twist as I’ve seen when I open up any old wall. I usually spend some time in a critical areas(kitchens and bathrooms) getting everything level and straight.
Yet the lumberyards here insist you don’t need kiln dried lumber for framing. Is this just an idiosyncrosy of my area or do others feel Green wood is fine?
Replies
my yard has evolved from Doug Fir (green ) to hem fir ( green ) to
KD SPF.. with a little occasional hem fir (green )
i prefer the KD.. some of it will still twist, warp, split & check.. but overall it's much more stable that the green
i look forward to all manufactured lumber
Yeah that seems to be the ticket if you want really straight walls (cost no object), But the lumberyard people really got defensive when I asked if they carried DRY lumber - like I was a jerk for even thinking about needing it. Meanwhile the day before(a different lumberyard) I returned a 2x10 because it was 7 1/2" and weighed 50% heavier than it should have. I could have cut it down but worried that when it shrunk it wouldn't support the floor underneath the shower base I was installing.
does this issue smack of another profit margin angle????Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I guess it must be because the only negative I've ever heard of for kiln dried wood is that it sometimes splits when nailing. And uh.. yeah it costs a little more.
use the stuff with less knots and and better grain..................... Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I always use kiln dried lumber--- its just a lot more stable
And i don't think it should be offensive to be a little picky at a lumber yard....heck I pick through stuff like crazy... shoot half of the supposed grade A any more is nasty
Makes sense to me.
That 7 1/2" 2 x 10 was actually a 2 x 8. You should have recieved a credit for downsizing your purchase. The guy who loaded you AND you, made a silly mistake.
If the board was a little heavy, it was probably mostly sapwood....learn the visual difference between sapwood and heartwood in lumber....the heartwood is lighter and usually more stable.
Whether one uses KD or green, the young timber processed these days for framing lumber lends itself to warping, twisting and often unsuitable where straight walls are really desireable.
Personally, I opt for either engineered lumber or steel for kitchens, baths and any other areas where a flat, straight wall is an asset, especially where cabinets, vanities, etc., will be mounted.
Yeah, my mistake it was a 2x8, Jeez wonder what they'll say at the lumberyard when I ask for engineered lumber. How do you screw cabinets to steel studs? Do you use wood blocking?
Big magnets.
The only thing that bothers me about manufactured lumber is getting splinters from the edges. I can't seem to grab a parallam without the damn edges shedding sh!t into my hands.
Sawn lumber splinters don't seem to bother me.Troy Sprout
Square, Level & Plumb Renovations
i have the same problem with PT
i get within 3 feet and i gotch splintersMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
and will they ever fester and get major sore...
same fer PT...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Last one was a "double fire" into the right thumb joint against the nerve. Got the first out and thought I was home free. After two days I wondered if I'd ever get my thumb back it hurt so bad. Squeezed it from frustration and out popped the the second like a teenaged zit.
Still a week before the damn thing was comfy again.
God I hate imbedded solvents.Troy Sprout
Square, Level & Plumb Renovations
>>Yet the lumberyards here insist you don't need kiln dried lumber for framing. Is this just an idiosyncrosy of my area or do others feel Green wood is fine?
I'm embarassed to admit that when I first started working in construction, I thought KD was some kind of brand name. Stamped all over everything so . . . . ;-)
To answer your ques., what's the point of framing a straight wall with all studs in plane, making it plumb, lining it, to get a decent frame if all that happens once it dries is it twists and bows the finished wall into a potato chip?
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
at one time KD was short for Knock Down...
prehungs weren't very common....
go into yur yard now and ask fer a KD jamb.... ammuse yurself....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Around here, I've never seen anything but KD framing lumber. Funny how stuff is different from one region to the next...
Everyone has a right to be stupid, some just abuse the privilege.
All 2x is KD here also, and it's all from Canada. 4x and up are green, and I sure hate using green now that I've been spoiled with KD. In the SF Bay Area it was mostly green and we'd get KD occasionally for special stuff like stair stringers.
I just finished framing a 1200 sq ft addition in Florida. Every precut spruce kiln dried 2x4 had wane and was checked and split on both ends. I culled what I could but ended up returning the entire package instead. The yellow pine trusses were just as bad and I ended up nailing some scabs against the wane just to get my plywood decking to break on a solid surface. They must be cutting 2x4's out of 4" diameter trees these days or something.
This material came from the truss manufacturer but the best lumber I can find is at Lowe's. (shudder)
I think the major benefit of the KD lumber is that there's no mould or mildew on it when you put it in.
I'm guessing - I've never checked - that the KD is probably dried down to about 19% moisture, which is fairly easy to achieve, and no further. Shrinkage, warping, twisting and all the other fancy steps the lumber will go through only begins as the MC drops below 19 or thereabouts. Getting out the free water keeps shipping costs down and enables you to mark up the price while making ridiculous claims about increased stability in the wood.
Personally, I like to pick up stud lumber on Monday mroning since the handyman types have thrown all the good stuff aside on Saturday. It saves me a lot of tedious work. I go for the sticks that are slightly waney as they are usually straight, they seldom twist as they dry and usually tend only to bend in the plane that is easiest to fix; flatways, that is. Sticks that are a bit waney seldom contain the heart, which I try to avoid.
I'm looking forward to engineered lumber getting down to a reasonable price, too. In the meantime, ICF, TJI and steel.
Ron
I gotta agree, I think the standard for KD framing lumber is 16%. 'bout all the codes require it. I make it clear to my suppliers that I keep a "cull" pile that I'm not going to pay for and they need to be prepared to pick it up and give me credit for the junk I can't use.( you ever priced 28 foot 2/10's?). Jim Devier
the standard says... KD is dried to maximum of 19%
KD15 is dried to 15% , sometimes stated as MC15...
those are the only two standards i know of for framing lumber KD
S-GRN is above 19%
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I've worked thrity years with KD. Rarely any problems.
I remember one smal yard that used to stock S Green stuff. I'd occasionally go there for a few sticks in my days of remodeling. That stuff was awful.
I would never frame an entire house with S Green stuff.
blue
S-GRN doesn't mean it's green lumber - It means it was surfaced when it was green. S-DRY means is was surfaced after it was dried.
You know you're getting old when you stoop to tie your shoes and wonder what else you can do while you're down there.
<<<
S-GRN doesn't mean it's green lumber - It means it was surfaced when it was green.
S-DRY means is was surfaced after it was dried.>>
S-GRN certainly does mean exactly that... S-GRN doesn't tell you that it was ever dried to 19%
here's the Western Cedar site:
<<<<Moisture Content & How Seasoned Indicates the moisture content/condition of seasoning when timber was surfaced at the mill (KD indicates kiln dried): MC15 or KD15 --- 15% maximum moisture content; S-DRY or KD --- 19% maximum moisture content; S-GRN --- over 19% moisture content (unseasoned). >>>>
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
S-DRY means is was surfaced after it was dried.
Some guy that works at Home Depot tried to convince me that S-DRY meant it was sun dried. I didn't know what it meant, but I was skeptical that it was sun dried."I always say they should make killing people legal. Of course, if they did, I would probably be the first one killed."- Barry Bonds
buy a moisture meter and check, they cost about $100 and sometimes less..
My Day job, I am a lumber broker (Studs and dimension)
If it going into my house....it had better be Kiln Dried.
Barns, sheds, etc....go ahead and opt for the green lumber.
Mold is becoming a common problem in our houses.....(too tight of consruction...and building year round because of demand) so I sure as heck do not want to add to that problem by going with green lumber.
Find another lumber yard if they have a problem with that.
fast
Glacier,
You are right. It's worth paying the price to reduce the amount of mould you build into the house.
However, ijn my opinion, using KD makes little difference to the stability or movement of the wood except, as someone pointed out above, a lot more KD wood splits on you than green wood.
I haven't put any green wood into a building in years, anyway, because, as Newf said, we're not permitted to in Canada.
Ron
around here in Oregon., Ive seen plenty of KD with mold growing on it
black slimey stuff, right in the yard
as it sits in a yard, even under cover, it will pick up mositure to get to equalize with the environemnt
wiht mositure come mold
to me, main advantage fo kiln dried is in winter, its lighter to pack
ronbudgell,
The moisture added by a few sticks of 2x4's that have 3% more moisture in them is really nothing compared to the moisture added when stuff is sheetrocked, or tile laid or well you should get my drift..
Frenchy, I'm impressed. I came to this thread a little late but obviously you know what you are talking about.
KD to 19% is generally referred to as flash dried. its not true KD and definately not furniture grade. I think less than a week in the kiln will net you around 19%. such practice will only expell the moisture between the cell fiber. that lumber will never reach sustainable equilibrium and will experience large seasonal movement
furniture grade is kiln dried for a month or so to take the moisture content 6 or 7% to expell the moisture from the cell structure. once the cell structure is depleated of moisture it is not only stable but almost impervious to moisture. when that lumber reaches its true equilibrium, 11 to 12%, it will remain stable within a percentage point
Pressure treated lumber is flash dried, then pressure impregnated with preservatives at high heat, the result is a very high moisture content between and within the cell structure. Ever wonder why that nice new deck looks like hell a year later?
buy a moisture meter..
Wirenut3
Wow, a little bit of knowledge is a really dangerous thing..
Kiln dried.. read the stamp it will say KD 19 that means it's dried to 19% moisture content..
How is that any dryer than SD19? which is shipped dry to 19%?
Now the really shocking thing, Wood seldom gets much above 22%-23% moisture when it's growing!
By the time the log is cut down, stacked up, hauled to the mill, cut into studs or whatever, it's already lost a few points of moisture.
Tolerance is 2% so guess what!
If you intend to make a piano out of wood (or other furnature) you'll need to dry it to 7% moisture, Once you pull it out of the kiln, it will slowly absorb water untill it reaches equlibrium say 12% moisture..
The dryest straightest board in the world will still warp and twist and move around like a hootcie kootchie dancer as long as it can.. to fix it into place you need to fasten it down..
Build the house, and most of the wood is well fastened down..
In short Kiln dried doesn't mean anything! And it darn sure doesn't mean that it's drier!
Edited 4/8/2006 11:36 pm ET by frenchy
"Wow, a little bit of knowledge is a really dangerous thing.."It certianly is.As several other have pointed out S-DRY means surfaced dry, not shipped dry.Now I am looking at Hoadley, which I trust much more than you."Wood seldom gets much above 22%-23% moisture when it's growing!"He only gives a few example for fiber saturation point but they range from 22-24% in redwood and mahogany to 35% for birch.But there is also free water."Wood is intrees is wet. VERY WET. The cell structure contains excessivce water (asp) is fully swollen."And he has chart giving the average green poisture content a number of speices.The first is the heartwood and the 2nd the sawp wood.cottonwood 162%/146%
Norther red oak 80/69
white oak 64/78
walnut 90/73western red cedar 58/249
d fir 37/115
ponderosa pine 40/148
Redwood butt logs (Old Growth) generally sit on blocks in the log yard for a year or two to allow a lot of that free water to leave.
Both Redwood and Western Hemlock will, in some cases sink in water.
Years ago, I drove log truck for awhile....one of the mills cut only Hemlock and stored their logs in a pond.
When I'd bring a load in, they spread the logs in the yard to scale them and then lash barrels to the big butts before putting them in the water.
Bill,
SD And Sdry are two differant staMPS PUT ON by differant grading systems.. SD19 means shipped dry 19% (plus or minus the 2% allowance)
KD 19 means Kild dried 19% moisture
Whew! the differance between saturation and moisture levels would fill up at least a chapter of a book, would you like me to recommend a book or two for you to read? Tauton press publishes several like, Wood and how to dry it.
Free water and bond water as you seem to somewhat allude to are differant.. You can have furnature grade wood (7% moisture) have it rained on and get wet and it's still dried.. (wet but dried if you understand the differance.. Basically what that means is that one is still "green" and one is simply wet..)
" Free water and bond water as you seem to somewhat allude to are differant.."I did not allude to it.Here is what YOU SAID." Now the really shocking thing, Wood seldom gets much above 22%-23% moisture when it's growing!"WHEN IT'S GROWTING.That is what YOU SAID 22%-23% WHEN IT IS GROWING.I gave a souce, FROM A WELL KNOW REFERNECE BOOK ON WOOD. That gave number MUCH, MUCH, MUCH HIGHER THAN 22-23%.If you have any know sources say otherwise list them with the quotes."SD And Sdry are two differant staMPS PUT ON by differant grading systems.. SD19 means shipped dry 19% (plus or minus the 2% allowance)"Tell me the grading system where SD19 means shipped dry (19%). I could not find any references to such grading stamp.But I found tons and tons to KD, S-dry, S-grn such as;http://www.cwc.ca/products/lumber/visually_graded/moisture_control.php
http://www.cwc.ca/products/lumber/visually_graded/sizes.php
http://www.umass.edu/bmatwt/publications/articles/wood_myth.html
http://www.wwpa.org/gstip.htm
http://muextension.missouri.edu/explore/agguides/forestry/g05053.htmAll well reconnised industry and educational resources.If you have documentation that says otherwise let me know.Otherwise it is like many of your other statements such as "it is well documented that Bush entertained the Taliban at his ranch". COMPLETELY FALSE.
Bill, is Frenchy getting to you? ;-)
I still want to see pics of his double timber framed solid walnut palace. Not that I'm skeptical or anything. ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
philarenewal,
Pino has some if you ask. I tried this weekend to post some and actually got one logged onto the site over at knots, then something happened and now I understand we can't post pictures.. I'll try again later..
(actaully my daughter will try again later)..
Frenchy, don't knock yourself out -- I'm just kidding. ;-)
Besides, if you do post the pics, then I lose the ability to jab you on that. ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
You could post the pics to photo bucket or some site like that and just post links to them. I've never tried to post pics on here, but a lot of people have problems. Someone said they have to hold down the control key when they attach a photo.
The National Building Code of Canada, and most local codes, Cape Breton for sure, require KD lumber for all new construction.
And we have pretty good wood.
Want some, he said staring at the border tarriff............
<G>
Seasoning or Moisture Content
These may include:
• MC-(number) (percentage moisture con-
tent – MC-15, for example, means the
lumber had a maximum moisture con-
tent of 15% when it was produced)
• KD (Kiln Dried to a maximum moisture
content of 19% – this may also include
a lesser moisture content number, such
as KD-15)
• S-DRY (19% maximum moisture con-
tent at time of surfacing)
• S-GRN (more than 19% maximum
moisture content, or unseason
Back To The garden...Sculptures in Wood
http://newf.no.9.googlepages.com/home
If I use green wood on framing, the Drywall joints will crack in about a year, and I will get a callback.
I use KD, unless they want to pay less for green wood and understand the shrinkage issue.
Regards,
Scooter
"I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Scooter1
Kiln dried 19 is no drier than SD 19 thus the shrinkage ill be the same..
Wirenut,
While others battle over what S-Dry,S-Green and KD 19 mean, Yes green lumber is popular in your area. Why? Don't know.
When I framed in Florida, everything was KD. When I moved to New Jersey, I was shocked at just how wet, and heavy framing lumber was.
I've seen green stuff here in eastern PA as well, but not as often as New Jersey.
Heck, One Architect in your area specs and insists on Dimensional lumber for all his floor framing. Something about fire. So, you find yourself framing an 8K sqft house in the spring, using lumber so wet it soaks your T-shirt when you pick it up and throw it on your shoulder, and grows mold when you cover it over the weekend. Just imagine what happens after the heat has been on for a few months. Yes, it will shrink and twist.
I don't know what the cost difference is, But I bet if you call Huston or Warren Lumber they can get you KD. More so Warren as they have a few yards in PA. Matter of fact, they have one in Phillipsburg in the reduced sales tax zone.
If you call Huston, call the Oldwick yard and ask for Ken Wiser.