Yesterday a fairly new clients dog got loose despite my best efforts to watch them both closely. The dog slipped out a open door because I was cutting outside. I pride myself on being very attentive to pets and this is the first time in my twenty five years that something like this has happened. I feel very badly but I am also confident that within a couple of days the dog will turn up.
The homeowner feels I am at fault and would like me to cover the cost of an ad in the local paper ( Which could get exspensive) and who knows what else down the road. My question is, am I liable in for the missing dog. I have always taken ethics in my trade seriously but with the poor economy I am doing work on a razor thin margin throwing in many freebies.
I feel that being careful with animals is important but question my ultimate responsibility if the worst happens, as in this case. It seems as a builder, the list of what I am liable for is so big that it bothers me to see something added to the list. It is hard to focus on animals when I am trying to get home with all my fingers in tack and no damage the homeowners property while doing quality work at a cut rate price. Thanks for your thoughts on this
lee
If it’s worth doing… its worth doing right!!!
Replies
Lee,
I think you have already answerd your own question.
Were you hired to remodel, or were you hired to babysit the dogs ?
Was there anything in the contract about you being responsible for babysitting the dogs while you worked ?
It was totaly irresponsible of the owners to allow their dogs to run free while work was being done by you. It is not your responsibility, it is theirs. They should have had the dogs shut up in one room. Or, they should have taken the dogs with them. Or they should have had the dogs babysat, or kept at a boarding house for the duration. Or they should have tied them up, outside... etc. It is their own fault.
It is in no way your fault.
Quittin' Time
P.S.
Maybe you should ask them for an increase in price because of the extra duty, and/or for hazard pay, since it is dangerous to work with the dogs underfoot...
???
Put the ball back in their court. They neglected their own common sense duties with their own pets, and they are trying to slough the blame off on you.Quittin' Time
Do whatever you need to do to help find the missing dog. Eat the cost of the ad, etc. Chalk it up as a learning experience.
If they like your work, you will more than make up for this cost through their referrals.
Ask all future clients to have their pets safely secured while you work, i.e. in the basement, garage, backyard, etc. I've started doing this years ago.
Furthermore, if the owners really give a darn about their dog, the dog has a collar with a current dog license on it, in which case they probably already have the dog safely back home.
Good luck!
Their dog went missing and they have time to chat with you about who's going to pay for the newspaper ad? Their dog went missing and they think a newspaper ad is the most effective way to find him? I've had dogs all my life, and whenever one has gone missing, if I wasn't in school or at work, then I was out looking for my dog. For the price of an ad, they could be posting and distributing flyers. In your shoes, I might feel guilty (a dog's still missing), but I would know that it was not my fault. They are treating what is often "man's best friend" as if it were mere chattel, or personal property, which unfortuantely is all a dog legally is. Hope they do not have any children...
Regards,
Rework
Edited 9/4/2002 9:19:54 PM ET by Rework
Sorry to hear it, man. Tough way to be with a new client.
I'd tell them that their pet is their responsibility. I seriously doubt if I'd do any more than that for them.
I've had enough clients who thought their pet was my problem that I now have a clause in all contracts saying they are 100% responsible for all pets, children, visitors, any other person or critter that could get loose, in my way, or run over.
There's no way you can do your job and dog-sit.
DRC
You didn't say "no" and you left the door open - 'nuff said.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
I do a lot of rural work and pets are often part of the scene. I'm an animal lover myself and don't mind keeping an eye out. But I always make it clear when animals are part of the picture that I'm not the caretaker and, while I don't mind occasional chores with the animals, I'm not ultimately responsible for their well-being. While I haven't put that in writing as was suggested in an earlier post, I doubt that any sane legal authority would hold me responsible for the security of the pets and I would strongly resist any effort to hold me responsible.
My take on pets, and DW and I have a few, is that they're family and she and I are ultimately responsible. The relationship between pets and their owners and the emotional bond involved is not too much different than that with human offspring (I would shoot, in a heartbeat, any s.o.b. who threatened my pionus parrot or my Lab...or my son).
So for a client to try to lay the blame for a missing pet on the guy who's working on their house is total B. S. and typical of a lot of the weak-willed in our current society who refuse to accept responsibility for their own actions.
Perhaps the dog didn't get lost but merely escaped!
Off with their heads!!!
From your description of the circumstances and your general feeling of responsibility about home pets and such, I’d have to say….No way is it your fault. I’m convinced that you were being as conscientious as anyone else would have or could have been under the circumstances. Dogs and cats will find a way to get out if they’re determined to go……..period. They’ll lurk by the door, watching your eyes to see when you’re not on full guard for a fraction of a second and then bolt for the opening. S**t happens, but it appears they’re looking for someone to blame. I don’t think you’re anymore responsible than the pet owner is if they’re leaving the pet roaming around during your comings and goings, knowing full well that a bolt out the door is a definite potential and that the pet won’t respond obediently when you call them back. Sounds to me as if they don’t have their act together and are trying to hold you responsible for it.
At this point, you’re simply going to have arrive at some sort of a decision concerning whether or not you’re going to be compliant with their accusations. Sounds to me like they're cheapskates looking to throw responsibility in their own minds for the benefit of their wallet. Frankly, they don’t sound like the type of folks I’d care to have for clients, but then that’s not my call to make. If you feel that paying the ad will salve the situation for the remainder of your stay there, then perhaps it’s worth it. Sorry, your call….but then you already know that.
Edited 9/4/2002 10:19:54 PM ET by GOLDHILLER
I agree with others about you saying that you'd watch sort of sets up the first domino. . . (no good deed goes un-punished, does it?)
The other side of the balance is (as others also said) how much potential future and referral business could hinge on them being unhappy?
Only you can do that cost/benefit analysis.
That being said, I am trying to imagine my reaction to the following scenario,
ME-"Hey Joe, I heard you had Mr. So and So redo your kitchen"
JOE- "Yep, sure did, that sonofabitch"
ME-"Wow, what happened, did he do lousy work?"
JOE-"No, the work was fine, he said he watch my dogs so they wouldn't get out while he worked and one got out!"
ME-"But you say that the work was OK?"
JOE-"yep"
ME-"Well, I'll probably give him a call, and just make sure that I put Fido on the leash if he takes the job" (I'd keep to myself the comments about Joe's irresponsibility as a dog owner)
I, too, am a dog owner and our dog is part of the family. My heart would sink if I came home and was told that she'd gone missing for hours and no one had seen her. I know that she is a fast little bugger and I am very hesitant about who I will allow to watch her or let her out on her leash. That being said, I doubt I would trust her to an "unknown" contractor.
I personally don't think it is your fault or financial obligation "legally" but I'd spend some time helping comb the area.
Good LuckSteelkilt Lives!
Had watching he dogs been discussed beforehand? Had you agreed to to it, or not disagreed if the subject was raised?
If there wasn't some sort of agreement or some other reason they might have reasonbably formed the expectation that you would watch the dogs, then you aren't responsible, IMO.
You might want to make some efforts from a PR point of view, but make it clear that you are <b>not</b> accepting responsibility, merely trying to help out.
I'm with those who feel that he owners were acting irresponsibly: they have an affirmative duty to care for their pets and failed to do so (again assuming you didn't undertake that responsibility for them.)
Thanks to all the heartfelt support during such a difficult time. The clients dog was discovered this morning behind a neighbors house, a couple of blocks away, as I suspected it would be. As for the client she is well aware of the quality of the work that I have been doing for her at a reduced price and was more than reluctant to see the relationship damaged by this incident. I made it clear to her that she needs to make arraignments for her dogs to be secure from now on.
To relate to a couple of comments made in the replies 1. As for animals being property...In Boulder Colorado a dog is not property but instead the law reads that we are guardians. 2. As for the "door open nuff said comment".. I was in the process a full replacement of two exterior doors and the client had explicitly expressed that the dogs would be fine and would not run off. I only wish that life were so simple as to some up a complicated scenario such as this with one sentence.
I, from the beginning felt that "my" ultimate responsibility for these animals did not exist but as a matter of conscience and ethics wanted to get further opinions on the matter. I have always taken my clients animals as seriously, if not more seriously than the humans around but also felt strongly that given that I went beyond what most tradesmen would have ,that this did not translate into an admission of liability. It seems that the blame game is played out all too often and one must know when to draw the line. Which is what I did in this case.
As it was stated many times, I am not a dog sitter and the client needs to take responsibility for the pet in question ...not me. This trade is difficult enough without adding to that burden with such foolishness. That being said I am an animal lover and will always go above and beyond for a clients pets but I will also be adding a bold statement to my contracts reminding my clients implicitly that I am not responsible for their pets should they "bolt" through an open door. Again thanks for the compassion and support.
lee
If it's worth doing... its worth doing right!!!
New!!! Home Remodeling forum
Edited 9/6/2002 1:21:17 AM ET by LEES1100
2 quick dog stories.
One little poodle, comes back from salon all dolled up, lady drops her in the back door after I told her to keep the critters out of the house while I worked today. I had just spread mastic for hardwood floor in foyer, dog trots out in the middle, looks at me and sits down. I scream, lady comes running from neighbors, dog stands and starts lifting one stuck paw at a time as it makes it's way slowly to the living room carpet...the rest is history. Vet calls, mineral spirits, burned paw pads, I kept laying floor...........
2) many years ago, addition on house, big german shepard, police dog dropout because of cloudy eye. It was always tearing around house and yard, and had been scoulded(by owners) many times for almost knocking some us down while carrying stuff. Near the end of the project, I had just closed the gate and was coming around the house with a framing square in one hand, and the dog tears past me, clipped it's eye on the square, and let's out one of those yelps, that you know is problems. I think quickly, take a fall and scrape my hand. Owners come around, see me on ground, dog sitting with eye poked out. Blame shifted.Unscrupulous....admittedly......but no lawsuit, and dog locked away for duration.
I have learned to make the pet issue a selling point in my work.I will go as far as building a temporary pen for the dogs or bring a pet carrier for the cats and I'll feed them a bite of food at lunch time and try to get them to obey commands.The job I am doing now I have trained their puppy to come to me and sit when I yell at it. I have better control of their dog then they do.
ANDYSZ2
A dog that won't come when it is called is poorly trained, and therefore poorly cared for. Either that or it is an unfixed male and he'll be back when he is done. A dog that won't come home on it's own needs to be thinned from the gene pool. And I love dogs. But it is a disservice to a dog to not train it well.
Scott Owen
This thread is timely for me. Our kitchen remodel is projected to begin Monday and we have an 8 month old puppy in the process of being trained. He's perfectly obedient - when he's not excited or tired or distracted or hungry or..... So I'll spend time this weekend making sure he will be secure while the work is being done. Thanks.
"A completed home is a listed home."
-->>>>But it is a disservice to a dog to not train it well.
AMEN brother
People think that the electric training collar is mean and painfull
I tell them it's less painful than being hit by a car. Besides, all I use on it is the "beep only" function anymore. The dog runs to the alpha for security and assurance. When it hears your call, doesn't come, feels the tingle, then runs over to you for assurance . . . Well, the next time it listens it is not fear of your wrath, it is assurance that it is safe with you.Steelkilt Lives!
" I was in the process a full replacement of two exterior doors and the client had explicitly expressed that the dogs would be fine and would not run off. I only wish that life were so simple "
That was the key I was looking for as with Bob. Under a situation of neglect you might be responsible . I had been thinking it was your obligation to read your own work area for any problems you might incounter. You did that .
If you had left a pilot lite on while you were putting down formica with explosive glue, then you would have been responsible. To show up with no one home and start replacing exterior doors with the dogs in the house would have fallen under the same lines for me . I think things like that are our professional duty, maybe not legal.
I guess this will probably never happen to you again or me after reading this post.
Tim Mooney
Glad this all worked out for you, Lee.
I have a few dog stories, myself -- hence the contract language.
I suppose the idea of putting that in a contract raised a few eyebrows, so I'd like to comment on that.
There's a lot of ways to look at a contract. What I don't see it as is a way to make anyone do anything they didn't want to do in the first place. If you get to that point, you have trouble.
I do see it as the best chance I'll ever have of clarifying the assumptions we're using to begin a very expensive relationship with someone who I may not know very well, if at all.
Anyone in the business, and anyone who has been a client, knows that remodeling and new construction alike can be expensive, difficult, stressful, and hopefully rewarding.
After you've been in someone's life long enough to remodel their house you might get to know them a little better than you'd like to under less than ideal circumstances. Anything you can do to head off misunderstandings is simply in the best interest of everyone concerned.
In my experience, there are some folks (not all) who use their pet as a kind of alter-ego -- something to act out a part of their personality that they aren't entirely comfortable with or willing to take responsibility for. If you don't set boundries with these folks on day one, trouble is coming. If you get the ground rules squared away up front it could still be difficult, but at least you're working from defined and mutually agreed terms.
Maybe one of these days I'll tell you about the man-hating lesbian with the killer pit-bull that wouldn't let anyone near the job . . .
Grins,
DRC
>Maybe one of these days I'll tell you about the man-hating lesbian with the killer pit-bull that wouldn't let anyone near the job . . . <
Have you also added language to your contract regarding man-hating lesbians <BG>
Seriously though, I agree totally. It somehow seems that if it is not excluded up front then somehow its part of the deal or you are liable, which I don't agree with. I hate having to be a legalist with my clients regarding such foolishness. Common sense should prevail here. But as this has taught me people will always expect too much. Thanks again for the kind words
lee
If it's worth doing... its worth doing right!!!
New!!! Home Remodeling forum
Update,
After the dog return home I had a long conversation with the homeowner informing her that I was not responsible for her pets in any way. She reluctantly agreed and for the remander of the project agreed to have them at a freinds house while she was away and I was working. Yesterday she came home early and I was was pushing to get some trim done in the bedroom, so she could have it back that night. I had the front door propped open because I was making about one hundred trips in and out to cut.
When she gets home, she comes through that door with the dogs and after a few mins she comes into the room and starts admiring my workmanship. As usual I am shooting a finish nailer and zoom out the door the dog goes again. The dog came home later that evening but she was once again furious and blaming me for not looking out after her dogs. She blamed me because of the open door that she just came through and did nothing to secure these dogs. In twenty five years in this trade this has been one of the most difficult and demanding clients I have ever worked for. Needless to say I will be glad to get out of there and won't be expecting a reference despite the fact that in replacing all the windows in the house nothing was damaged and she even this morning thank me for my " excellence of work". Needless to say that with all the little extras I have done for this women I am feeling a little jaded by this experience.
Edited 10/2/2002 3:47:31 PM ET by LEES1100
No good deed goes un-punishedSteelkilt Lives!
Too bad, hope it turns up. I have a clause in my Contract, about pets, and kids and gates,etc. Hope I never need it. I'm a builder, not a baby or pet sitter. If escape is a concern, they should be confined away from your access areas. IMHO. Had a client's Pug, get out, quite a few years ago. Chased that little SOB for blocks, with my tool belt still on. Bet that was a sight for the neighbors! Little bugger would stop, let me get just so close, then ZOOM, off he would go again. If I was'nt such an animal lover, I'd probably thrown my hammer at him:) Best of luck!
Brudoggie
A few years ago, when having the bathroom remodelled, we took the dog to "doggy daycare"; we took him out when we left for work. Seemed like the only way to make it work.