I recently got in hot water with my old lady because a buddy of mine asked me to do some molding in his house. She asked me “are you getting paid?” to which I replied “Of Course” This guy is a friend I have been friends with since I began to walk, he was in my wedding party and we were tight all throughout our lives. He never expected me to do the job for free, but I really never intended to charge him either. He bought everything, it was supposed to just be crown, but when I got there he bought all new casings for the doors and windows, and base too! Now the job was gonna take alot longer. I was kind of torn now cause it was so much more work! My wife again asked “are you getting paid?” and again I said “Yes”. “How much she said? I said probably a days pay (around $400) When I finally inished my buddy said “what do I owe you?”,I refused to take anything from him, I have known him for so long and I know he’ll help me in the future if I need it. I just didnt feel comfortable about taking money from him. Well my old lady hit the roof when she found out I didnt take anything! She explained that I lied to her about getting paid and the time I spent away was time spent away from the kids etc. I guess she’s right. How do you guys cover the issue of doing work for friends? I’m talking dear friends now, this guy is like my brother! Also any advice to getting back in my lady’s good graces?
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You screwed up. Why would you lie to DW twice?
Why did your friend ask you to help? Did he get a quote from someone else and think he could get a cheaper price from you? Did he think you neded the extra income? Apparently he planned to pay you something since he asked when the job was over. You should have come up with something. You told DW it would be about $400. You should have at least asked your buddy for $200.
So, if your wife agreed to babysit some kids all weekend, and told you she was gonna get $400, and then she did it for free, how would you feel?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
About working for free, as long as you're sure that it's a two way street with your buddy, then I don't see a problem there at all. That's what friends are for.
About the DW, you're screwed. Not because you lied, but because you felt that you had to. In this case, I would have told my wife the truth and with a buddy or two that I have, she would have understood completely. She knows it goes both ways.
In a very self reflective/introspective way, I would ask her why you felt that you had to lie about it. Turn it around on her. She's the problem, not you.
Out of all my friends, I only have one like you're talking about. Been like brothers since we were in school. He's one of the best mechanics in this area. I don't charge him for any carpentry work as long as he helps when I need him, and he doesn't charge me for keeping my vehicles working like new, as long as I help when he needs it(swapping motors, trannys). Always been like this.We have never exchanged money at all unless one of us is in a pinch. We like trading things when we get bored with our junk too. Traded my bass boat for his motorcycle acouple yrs ago. Traded back last year.
I don't have a clue how you can fix things with the wife. If I knew that answer I'd probably have a happier marriage.lol
Greg
I don't have any friends, but that's probably because I wouldn't do any work for them.
If I need something done, and I can't do it myself, I pay a professional to do it. I don't ask for favors.
It's never a good situation. What happens if you are volunteering, and miscut a $500 counter top, or a $100 piece of crown molding? What happens if your friend left a nail set on top of the ladder, you move the ladder, and next thing you know you've lost an eye?
Surgeons, or dentists, don't give freebies to friends. I don't see why carpenters should be any different. There is just as much liability.
I did like this, I did it like that, I did it with a wiffleball bat.
Edited 3/7/2006 2:10 pm ET by dustinf
It's never a good situation. What happens if you are volunteering, and miscut a $500 counter top, or a $100 piece of crown molding? What happens if your friend left a nail set on top of the ladder, you move the ladder, and next thing you know you've lost an eye?
The unwritten law of helping a friend is that it's your bad luck if he screws up. Same situation when you have friends help you move...if something gets dinged you can't complain. If you wanted to be able to complain, you needed to do as you say...hire professionals. At which point you're paying for the privilege to complain.jt8
"Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
I often trade labor with friends. Guy who was helping me with the LR ceiling last weekend will have my fat butt up on his roof in a couple weeks.
Your problem was telling dw that you were getting paid. Are you not allowed to hang out with your friends? I would have just viewed it as spending some time with a friend...whether we're watching a game or putting up some molding doesn't really matter.
Unless of course it is a one-way deal. If you're helping him with stuff but he isn't helping you, then I can understand why dw might be getting honked off. Otherwise it should balance out. The $$ you don't get from him is the same $$ you don't pay him when he is helping you.
jt8
"Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Edited 3/7/2006 2:35 pm by JohnT8
Loose the wife and keep the friend. That's what I did.
Sounds like you bought the shovel, dug the hole and then filled it in after you got in!
First - DO NOT LIE to the wife!!!
Second - DO NOT LIE to the wife!!!
Third - discuss it with her - reminding her you would do the same for her family ( and you had better keep that if you say it )
Fourth - discuss it with your friend - I charge both friends and family - but I may give a discount, do it free, or barter services - depends on discussion with wife and time required.
Fifth - DO NOT LIE to the wife unless you are looking for a divorce
I dont know why I lied......... In the beginning I was going to accept some money, but as the job progressed my buddy and I were hanging out, laughing about the old times, At the end I felt stupid taking money from him. I'm dormering my house soon and I know he'll be there to help. He's not a tradesman but he'll help with demo and stuff, so I know my help will be reciprocated. Anyway I guess I lied cause if I told my wife from the beginning I was doing it for free I would have had to hear her bit$# every time I left to go there. (I was there a total of 3 Sat. and I was home by 2:00 every time.) If was a bad move I admit it. So now I guess I have to kiss her a#$ for a while. I explained that my buddy will be there to help when Idormer but she doesn't believe it'll happen. Oh boy I really did it good this time..........gotta take my lumps I guess.
Can't comment on the situation with the wife. That horse is already out of the barn.
For what it's worth, I did some work for one of my best friends when I first started out. Before then we traded a day's labor back and forth for odd jobs, just helping each other out. The first job where I accepted money for the work really changed our relationship as friends (and it was next to nothing, like a hundred bucks plus beef and beer for a day's work). I would never do that again (though I'd take the beef and beer). I think not taking the pay was the best decision you could make.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
I think that was what I was afraid of Phil. Certain friends I do charge because I know "they'll never do anything for me" . This friend is different ,our mothers used to push us around in the same carriage!
Yeah you shouldn't have told your wife you were going to get paid.... For a friend like that she shouldn't have expected it.
Tell her that you've been getting paid with his faithful friendship for all these years, and he is going to pay you in the future by helping out. I trade favors with friends all of the time...but my deal is I will ''help'' them, but not do it for them.. I try and teach them. And then when they help me they teach me and we all come out ahead.
If your friend is that close then i'm sure he's worth a couple Sat's and if you did a good job then in might turn into some good advertising and future work
When in doubt, get a bigger hammer!
You better p r a y that he shows up to help you with those dormers....(you might have to pay him to make sure he shows up! ;)Jay
talk with her, & going absolutely srraight arrow from now til forever....
MAN... so many of you guys have it 100% wrong... you don't keep score with friends or with loved ones... in any relationship their has to be balance but it will never be 50/50 in anyone eyes and no one will ever see it the same... sometimes you have to carry 90% sometimes 10% is all you can do... thats why you are in the relationship...
I never expect anything from anyone that way I'm never upset... I have a great set of friends that I place great value on... they know I never ask for help but thats just me, call it a character flaw, But I'll do about anything for about any of my friends...
as for the wife... dude you screwed that up... not so much by the lie but somewhere before you gave her the right to ask that kind of question... I'd never ask a question like that of my wife and she'd never ask it of me... sorry you had to lie to do what felt right in your heart... my guess is if she picks up someones kids from school you don't ask what she charged... it's a control issue and dude you are not the one with it... what i say goes at my house because i made the first rule... and that rule is... we do what she wants...
the only money it is ok to ever take from a friend is if they are make'n money on a project and they offer you part of the deal...
p
Ponytl
Man you hit it on the head!
I don't keep score with friends, never have and and never will. That's why their called FRIENDS!
When I give something to a friend, weather it be work or whatever, its theirs, I don't expect or count on it being returned, that's up to them.
OP, As for telling the lie to the misses, well hell, you shouldn't have, that's an easy one.
I cant imagine having to tell the wife weather or not I'm getting paid to help a friend, I think she trusts that I'm going to do what's right for me and for my friends.
I think your problem with thinking that you have to tell the lie in the first place is a much deeper problem that you need to analyze.
Doug
Some of my good friends hire me to do work that they would be paying somebody else they don't know or trust.They ask what the going rate is and can I make a profit then put up enough front money to cover materials and rarely do we work together on the project its mine to handle as I see fit.
Some of my good friends I just show up and say I'm free this weekend and do you want to fix that .... while I got the time.
Some I trade out work with a rough running tab this gets tricky but I try and give them the better deal just to make me feel right.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
I frequently do freebies for friends and family. And I've only gotten burned once. (By my Brother)But my friends and family also have done a great deal for us. Like last time we moved - We asked 5 people to help and 19 showed up. That's hard to beat.With my Brother, I've learned not to do any freebies anymore without something specific in return. I once told him I'd help him with some drywall work on Saturday if he'd help me work on my truck on Sunday. And that worked out well. Seems like if I negotiate with him I come out O.K. If I just help him and don't ask anything in return I get burned.If things look like they're more than you can do as a freebie, I don't see why it would be wrong to tell 'em that. Explain the situation with your Wife, and that you don't want to cause any unnecessary friction with her. If they're really your friends they should understand. Better to hurt them initially than to string a job along and piss them off later. .As far as your relationship with your Wife, I'm gonna stay out of that one. I can't get along with mine, so there's no point in me telling you how to get along with yours. (-:
I'd rather french kiss a skunk.
Tell the Dragon you got paid in time away from her. :)
How many good friends does your wife have?
Man, are you whipped, Craigabooey!
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Regarding your wife, you answered your own question in Post # 9:
"At the end I felt stupid taking money from him. I'm dormering my house soon and I know he'll be there to help."
and
"I guess I lied cause if I told my wife from the beginning I was doing it for free I would have had to hear her bit$# every time I left to go there."
You need to let her know that she needs to trust your decisions and support your actions - even if she may disagree. I am sure you don't tell her how to spend her time and what activities she is permitted to do with her friends.
My guess is something else is going on and dw is choosing this issue to as a vehicle to demonstrate her displeasure. Figure out what THAT is.
Frankie
There he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.
—Hunter S. Thompson
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
Very wise post. Very well said!
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
I have maybe 3 friends like you described. Guys I could call on for anything with out question they would be there, no matter what I asked, I consider them more family then friend.
For them I would work for nothing other then maybe food and drink. Same with close family.
Other then that I will not work for free.
You could tell your wife what I told mine, before we were married mind you, when she would get all pissy over something I was doing or time I was spending with them...
"He/they were around a long time before you and if you keep it up, they'll be around after you're gone"
Even though I meant at it the time, and could be pushed to today, I don't recommend it ;)
But mine got the point and mellowed out
I don't lie to the wife. Frankly mine doesn't question me about that sort of thing either and I wouldn't like it if she did. But either way I don't lie to her at any point or time.
I think the friends thing is a personal and personality thing. I know guys that have friends that they stick like glue to, thick and thin and all that. I am not like that. I charge friends, family etc. for work if it is something that they would pay for anyway. Do I do an occasional favor? Sure. But they are rare and only when I want to and have the time. But again I think it is how you view it. And typically I view it as business is business. Except for Gunner. I would charge him double. DanT
Working for GOOD friends or family, feed me, water me, return the favor somewhere down the line. If I never ask or need the favor, no harm no foul!
Every one else, we work something out at the beginning.
Now if you are just making ends meet or you have a lot of debt, and you turn down real work to help a buddy, you deserve a beating for not taking care of family first!
If that's not the case, grow a set of balls and tell the truth up front.
Bill
sounds to me like he is your brother, albeit lacking the shared dna. brothers offer to pay; we refuse. he's there when you need help; you're there when he needs it. that's just the way it works. carpentry for/with (or football games, fishing, hunting) your brother is the same as women visiting over coffee. it's hanging out and bonding, while doing something to make sure we don't appear sensitive. we do it because it is fun.
but you cant lie to the wife. that's the thing you have to attone for, not doing for your free for free.
Just get him to pay you the $400, and then ask him to help you with some chore around your own house. Pay him $400 for the help. (After all, he's taking time away from his famile, etc.) Then go have a few cold ones. Everybody's happy and you get to drink beer with a friend. What's not to like?
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Guys,
Thanks for all the great advice. Dont get me wrong, this is not something I do regularly (lying) and my wife and I have a great relationship. She is my best friend! I feel badly about it but the truth is I didnt think it was a big deal at the time, its not like I was having an affair. Anyway just to let you know all is well on the homefront now, mostly because I showed her these posts! She had a good laugh over some of them. I wont ever lie again! As for the friend, it opened my eyes to a few things. One is even if they're friends you should work out some kind of arrangement for them to return the favor, either monetarily or some other way. Secondly time spent away from family for doing favors is truly worth something. I guess how much that is worth depends on who you are. Those 3 Saturdays I spent at my friends were saturdays away from my kids. That is what upset her the most. I kind of bothers me now too although I didnt seem to think of that at the time. And lastly, NEVER LIE TO THE WIFE! to all the guys who said I'm whipped or to grow a set, dont act like your really in charge, we all know who the boss is so stop pretending. Anyway thanks for all the advice!
Sounds like you got it patched up so just look ahead from now on. A little better communication up front can alleviate a lot of angst later on. Believe me, after a few hard lessons learned, I know!!!More often than not, I have friends doing work for me instead of the other way around. So if it's just a matter of needing an extra set of hands then I may try and barter something for it. But if it's because I need their technical expertise, then these are my rules.1) Acknowledge they're experts and that I'm not.
2) Always expect to pay them a fair wage, even though a discount is probably likely.
3) Let them suggest a price. (By the job or by the hour)
4) Pay them promptly when finished.
5) Offer to recommend them to others in the future. (Providing they did a good job of course!)So far, its worked pretty well for me as everyone who's done work for me is still a good friend and would work for me again.
I agree with your philosophy Tej.
Friends don't let friends do professional work for free.
I've "traded" professional services with other tradesmen on this condition: I'll let you work on my stuff for an hourly rate, and when I work on your stuff, I get the same hourly rate back. The rate can be severly discounted, it all comes out in the wash.
Friends deserve to be able to call friends and use them for their professional services, but the terms need to be discussed up front. I have a lot of auto worker buddies. I cant afford to work for all of them free, because when I buy an auto, I don't see them coming over to grind out an axle for free to return the favor.
The best way to avoid uncomfortable situations is to set up a policy before anyone asks. I tell everyone, I work for Ma for free, all my other friends and relatives get a 10% courtesy discount. When I take your job, I'll be treating it with the same professionalism that I deliver anywhere else.
Personally, I won't use anyone that offers to do something for me for free. Frank just went that route with a signmaker (big discount because he's an inlaw) and the results were predictable...we get put on the backburner for better paying jobs. Frank now knows what I already knew.
Great topic. It comes around regularly, but it always needs a good rehashing.
blue
we'd like to think otherwise, but any one of us to whom it is often applied is whipped by it. i expect it will remain the same until something better is invented.