All,
I ran across the website for JLC which prompted me to pose a question:
What is the difference between FH & JLC?
Which magazine is better and why?
Is there is philosophy difference between the two?
I am a faithful FH reader and owe many thanks to several of it’s authors for helping me in this trade. I was just curious what everyone else has to say.
dlb
Replies
I'm of the opinion they go hand in hand for a working carpenter/construction owner.
I'd say FHb would appeal more to the homeowner/diy than JLC.
Hard to explain...I find JLC more hands...maybe techinical?..... on both with the actual building articles as well as the business stuff.
I look forward to then both every month. Jeff
.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
both good
JLC more dry technical
FHB more inspirational - Andy has brought in more practical over the last couple years.Excellence is its own reward!
I think JLC covers more along the line of the business/trends area where FHB covers more of the design aspects they both have how to articles and I think FHB goes more in debth on them. I think the 2 complement each other very much.
Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
try a search on JLC here. There were a number of inputs on the topic. Basicly that thread said what was above.
BTW when JLC first started (not part of the Hanly group) they advertised in FHB, that's where I learned about it.
bobl Volo Non Voleo Joe's cheat sheet
Edited 9/17/2002 10:15:14 PM ET by bobl
Can't disagree with any of that. We both cover how-to (although of course, FHB does it better <G>). Where we also cover design, JLC does business. I think they're complimentary.Andy Engel, The Accidental Moderator
JLC is more a a trade journal. Its designed for the builder, covering all aspects of the trades from software to equipment to management.
Seems like the biggest difference is/was the ads. JLC has them everywhere, FHB has them at the beginning and end. The tenor of the ads at FHB seems to have changed, more like Good Housekeeping than Good Homebuilding now? Joe H
I don't agree with you Joe. All of our ads relate to home building in some way or another. You won't find any lifestyle ads ever. The most controversial ad we've run recently was for a Cadillac SUV/pickup combo. The question we asked ourselves, besides "Who thought this thing was a good idea?" was whether we'd have any problem running that ad for the same vehicle made by GMC or Chevy? We wouldn't have, so the Caddy ad ran.
Andy Engel, The Accidental Moderator
Just a personal note for what it's worth as maybe a representative of some others thoughts also...when I first tried out 'this old house' magazine one of my first judgement calls was how distasteful the running of truck ads appeared to me in a housing mag. Sometimes I think the only positive thing they have going for them is the folded pull-out posters inserted in the pages. I don't have a subscription even tho they offered me one for 11 bucks.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
Forget the primal scream, just Roar!
I subscribe to both FHB and JLC and almost always find something of real value in every issue of each.
Here's one difference I've noticed lately - most of the tool and book and material reviews in FHB are written by readers. The tool review section of JLC seems more like a series of press releases by the manufacturers, with sentences like "according to the manufacturer...". Well manufacturer's claims don't impress me as a "tool review". I'd much rather hear what some carpenter with mud on her boots thinks about a tool than some press agent. What are they gonna tell you, "this is out new drill, which isn't all that comfortable and the switch is hard to get to"?
I don't remember JLC being that way before Hanley Wood bought it, but maybe I just missed it before.
"This Old House"? You gotta be kidding me. I read a thing by Tom Silva in there one issue where he's talking about this dump trailer he owns so the customer saves the cost of having a dumpster onsite. Excuse me? So Tom, are you saying you don't up your rates to get compensated for your investment? Or that you don't charge the customer the dump fees? Or for the time it takes for someone to pull that thing to the dump? Tom, buddy, you're either stupid or you think I am. That magazine is might be good reading for someone, but not for professional builders.
Brinkmann for president in '04
Rez, there's not many builders I know who don't live out of their trucks. So, I think truck ads fit just fine. Andy Engel, The Accidental Moderator
granted
Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
Forget the primal scream, just Roar!
Truck ads tickle me fine. All the surveys for the free trade journals ask the question, do you paln to buy a truck in the next twelve months?
BTW, JLConline has something FHB doesn't.
and he's filling the boards up with his doctoral thesis on handrails and tips.Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, I had to shake my head when I saw that caddy ad.....family forum here, can't repeat the language that sprang to mind.
Anybody here buys one, don't tell me, 'kay? Cause that's it....you will never live it down.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
It took me over a year to buy my first issue. i just could not pay that much for a magazine. Then I saw one with a article I needed and got hook. a couple months later they had the back cover of the guy jumping, that really upset me alot. I showed it to every super I knew. we all came to the point that it was stupid to do and to print. I hope OHSA saw it and went after the guy. I was disapointed in FH for printing it and still thumb through the mag before buying looking for stupid stunts. FH you let me down .
BB
What could OSHA do it they saw that? I dont think they could do squat.
Edited 9/19/2002 9:46:47 PM ET by Doug@es
That photo came up in discussion at a training seminar this week. The expert in charge said that something like that could be used by a govt agency as a "media referal" to establish probable cause and get the proverbial camels nose under the tent flap.Excellence is its own reward!
Oh come on, BB. Not all of what we do is instructive, some of it is journalistic and some little bit merely amusing. Me, I'm kind of envious of Ryan the roof jumper. I've never been that athletic. He is and he's really good at it (from years in the half pipe).
Andy Engel, The Accidental Moderator
You know Andy, It kind of amused me that FHB chastised me in print for not wearing a respirator in one of the photo's for my article----and then----- in a later -----issue virtually glorified that roof jumping moron.Where is the consistency?
Roar!Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
Forget the primal scream, just Roar!
at least yer not bitter?
Jeff.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
not bitter,Jeff,just observant!
Actually I am glad you mentioned that,'cause it reminded me of something I was thinking about in connection with another thread.
Without being too P.C.----how come we never see any minorities, even incidentally, in FHB?I see tons of black guys working construction where I am----and I know other parts of the country have large hispanic workforces----but I don't see even an inkling of that in FHB.Is Conneticut populated entirely by white males?I will admidt that I haven't read all 140-150 issues of FHB----but I will bet I have read 70 or so.Off the top of my head I can only think of 2 exceptions to the "white male only" pictorial.
1) occasionally ,a woman appears in some pictures of a framing crew---same woman I think,I think it's Kerri Spier.
2) once, years ago, a japanese guy was featured (on the cover if I remember right) putting on a special roofing system.If I remember , the japanese guy was imported from Japan for one special project.
I am certainly not suggesting som pc move to find a "token",I just think its strange.
Steve, much of what you say is correct. And we try to include women and minorities in our photo shoots. It's just that our authors don't seem to hire any of them <G>.
There's no conspiracy. My job is to publish articles that are useful to people like you. I don't care if they're written by someone from Pluto. Andy Engel, The Accidental Moderator
"I don't care if they're written by someone from Pluto. "
You just banned him so he's writing over at JLConline now.
I guess we'll have to stick to earthbound articles.
;-)Excellence is its own reward!
"I don't care if they're written by someone from Pluto."
What about Uranus?
Brinkmann for president in '04
I reread my note from a couple days ago about the roof jumper. I know those on the west coast live by a different breath. but the labor in my area are stupid enough to believe and try this themselves. Some of the labor still believe wresting is not fake. Just with ohsa and workman comp looking at ever detail on the jobs this bad press is not needed. Super wanted me to tear the last page off the mag, and it was in my truck. Alot of people think of these high price mags as the bible and their bible is saying " Hey safety does not matter, go ahead break you neck . We will watch" Somebody on that photo shoot should of step in and stop it before it happen. Yes it made good pictures but would you printed the pictures if he broke his neck, laying on the ground, crumpled. Just like "real videos" on the telly. The mag needs some moral, some principal.
Ok enough said, I will not bring it up again.
While I agree that the roof jumper was a little light headed as well as light hearted, you won't find too many magazines with more moral guidance unless you are looking for religious subscriptionsExcellence is its own reward!
I don't know for sure jim but that was really pretty good.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
Forget the primal scream, just Roar!
Liked the roof jumper guy. Morons will always be morons. Kinda like the song about "here's your sign". If you are the average Joe and try that, you'll get exactly what you have coming.
Minorities? Around here, NC/SC, we have a lot of latin workers. We have lost a few lately to two different crushing accidents from walls collapsing on them. Feel bad for the families as these two were here trying to send money home. One was a cinderblock wall that was built too high without bracing and the other was just down right gross. Big reinforced concrete sections cast on site and then raised by a crane. One let go because the top bolts weren't in yet.
Also, JLC has the "site commander" give away! Yeah baby, there's your truck ad! (I hope I win, I hope I win, something better than my tired 1998 chevy S10!)
http://www.thesitecommander.com/default.asp
With all due respect Andy,I don't think your answer to either of my questions quite cut it----in fact they sound dangerously like the company line.
Please refer to Brownbags post for excellent reasoning RE: the roof jumper.
Regaurding minorities missing from your photos-----dumping it back on your "authors" is a clearly nonsense since we both know( absolutely for a fact) you encounter minorites on these job sites. Even if you really did not encounter minorities,I think it's clearly irresponsible to simply claim" our authors don't seem to hire them"----how about " our authors don't seem to pay workers comp or witholding taxes"?---you wouldn't let that stand or get into print.
In fact Andy,I am incredulous that you would even TRY to make the claim that wether I wear a respirator or not is important to you magazine's position----and then moments later here try to claim it is of no concern to FHB wether its "authors" exclude blacks from their workforce.
Oh,and andy---I just went back and re-read your post. where you claim"our authors just don't seem to hire any of them<G>"----what the heck does <G> mean----is that the internet/conneticut version of nudge,nudge---wink,wink?----you might want to edit that out.
C'mon Andy----140-150 issues and NEVER a black guy? EVER? thats just not plausible.
BTW, It just now occured to me----do blacks also NOT woodwork,cook,garden or sew?
Edited 9/23/2002 7:12:30 AM ET by SHAZLETT
Steve, since you're one of our authors, the <G> was simply a way of needling you. Good naturedly, but perhaps a little pointedly, as you did me. And by the way, there have been photos of African-Americans, and hispanics and women in FHB. Not many, but Steve, I've been on dozens of photo shoots and you haven't. I work everyday with the other people who take the photos in FHB, and you don't. No one I work with would ever exclude a person from a magazine article based on their race or gender. The fact is that the jobs we visit tend to be lily white. I don't know why, and I can't control that. I put it back on the authors because in fact, they are the people who choose the crews that make it into the magazine.
And, I think you're being a little sensitive here btw, but you can't compare safety gear and minority representation in magazine articles. One I can buy in the hardware store, the other the author I'm going to photograph has to hire. Getting good authors to write good articles is hard enough without having to also pre-qualify their hiring practices. And in fact, only part of our mission is educational. Another part of it is purely journalistic, which means we're reporting on building trades as they're really done. To that end, if I published photos that artificially inflated the representation of minorities in the high-end of the building trades, it would paint a prettier picture than really exists.
We'll just have agree to disagree about the roof jumper.Andy Engel, The Accidental Moderator
Sorry Andy,but again with all due respect----your answer still doesn't cut it.
To claim that it's the authors' responsibility and to state that it's not your place to screen their hiring practices is to give your tacit approval to the status quo.
I freely admidt that you have been on WAY more photo shoots than me Andy----but I sincerely hope you aren't trying to imply that in all the years and in 150 issues that my jobs were the only ones that had a black guy working on them?Thats just not believable.
No one is asking you to "artificially inflate" minority representation----but that stance doesn't cut it either ----since FHB " artificially inflates" the publics 'perception of other aspects of the construction site.Doesn't Fine Homebuilding try to lead the way in encouraging the use of safety equipment,or high end materials WAY beyond the point that accurately reflects their actual use on most job sites?
If your job sites are,as you put it, "Lily White"---aren't you implying ,consciously or not, that that is the preferred crew demographic?
Frankly, I would feel a little better if you could actually point out a few issues that had----say ,blacks in them----cause I don't think any of my back issues contain anything like that.
Now honestly Andy,aren't you just a little embarrassed or puzzled that this conversation could even be taking place in the year 2002?wouldn't ya think out of sheer force of numbers---after 150 issues--- that every once and a while the sort of picture I am talking about would show up occassionally?That things would change a little between 1902 and 2002?Don't the folks at FHB ever wonder WHY all the jobs seem to be "lily white"?
BTW Andy,I really am not trying to put you personally through a wringer----but I think we both know that the status quo never changes unless ordinary schmucks like you and me start to stand up and say" hey---this aint cool---that aint right" You're in a much better place to make that happen than me.
Steven, I'm not at all embarrassed that this conversation can be happening. I didn't make the reality, but like you, I live it. My job is to make yours easier by providing useful construction info. That extends to making the workplace safer, but not to solving society's ills.
Frankly, I am a little offended at the conspiracy you're suggesting. That's just not how it is. I can't speak for every editor on our staff, but in the dozens (70 or so?) of photo shoots I've been on, there's not been a black guy on any of the crews. I don't know how to fix that.
So, instead of arguing about whose job it is to correct 300 years of injustice, how about you tell me what we should do about it? No simplistic answers, either, such as "find more minority authors". I want a course of action.
And I'm not begging your question about when and where minorities have appeared in the magazine. If you've got the time to look, you should. I don't. I can tell you that I remember a black fellow in an article very early on, several others in Cross Section recently, I photographed a hispanic man in Jim Anderson's Crane article, and there have been women throughout the magazine's history (Sarah Susanka, for one). We don't exclude anyone based on ethnicity or gender.Andy Engel, The Accidental Moderator
Shaz- I think that there are few tradesmen of non-Caucasian race represented in Finehomebuilding not because of an intentional slant but merely because there aren't that many tradesmen found of the female gender or non-Caucasian races, let alone in the quality of homes normally found in Finehomebuilding magazine for whatever the reasons. A fairly selective housing mag to be sure. Ever seen a feature article on dome homes or other esoteric styles? Strawbales, cordwood, 2inch particle board panels from New Zealand?
I think if the gender and races were more represented in that high profile main stream field they would be more represented in FH. Your letters seem to carry a tone heavy with accusation of specific racial/gender bias directed at Andy and the Tauton board and halfway to calling him a breather of falsehoods. At least the fabric of your claim is referred solely to your memory of previous photos and not any inside knowledge of the various writers of 'tips/techniques' and 'letters'.
I consider that you may have a desire to see everyone represented regardless of their true involvement. A few canned shots to appease the public and let's not forget single moms, homosexuals, native americans and riker island inmates.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
Forget the primal scream, just Roar!
How would I be able to tell from a photo if someone is a homosexual with a past adress at Rikers or Attica.
Follow this thread to it's logical conclusion and Taunton wopuld no longer be able to print any photos with people in them.Excellence is its own reward!
may have even had a few of the latter three types represented already... how would anyone know?
Look, there are no non-white Nascar drivers, there is only one woman this year (I think) and you don't hear folks telling Nascar to hire 'em some to look PC do you?
Man, get over this crap people. It's just a flipin' magazine no matter how fine a magazine it is. It's the best one out there in this field I've seen so far. I pulled my copy from July 2000 to look at ideas for cutting through my blind valley. The lack of minorities in no way hindered or tainted my search. You are dead on piffin...
...alive on piffin!
Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
Forget the primal scream, just Roar!
Edited 9/24/2002 12:30:16 AM ET by rez
Can we settle for right on?Excellence is its own reward!
a conservative to the end. er...Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
Forget the primal scream, just Roar!
Whoa,whoa,whoa,whoa,whoa----back up the truck!
1) Did not I say pretty early in this discussion that I was NOT calling for any PC solution or "tokens"? look it up---cause I am pretty sure I did.
2)If all of your actual job sites are as white as you all seem to claim----I am really suprised that you seem to find it outrageous that I would question why.If blacks aren't involved in this business is it out of line for me to ask why?I don't think so.
3)Andy,If you have been on 70 shoots as you say, you never wondered why they are so white? And I am a bad guy for wondering about this?
4) I don't believe it,---BUT,if your authors really won't hire blacks or who-ever----is it REALLY out of line to ask why not?
5) I think the US demographics would show that blacks are around 22-25% of the populace with the population of hispanic and asians coming on strong. In fact----it's projected that in a few short years whites will actually be in the minnority---they will simply be the LARGEST minority group.If that is a fact---is it really out of line to wonder why virtually no trace of this trend seems to show up here?
6)Andy, you challenged me to provide some concrete step----try this on.I notice that many of your articles seem to be written from Rhode Island,Conneticut,and a lot of what would be considered pretty white bread eastern seaboard parts of the country.Don't you think if you had more balanced GEOGRAPHIC representation---included more from say LA,Miami,Chicago,Las Vegas----and a bit more urban instead of overwhelmingly sub-urban----that things might show up a bit differently?
7)Andy ,I have to hand it to you. You are a pretty good spokesman for FHB.You have managed to take controll of an uncomfortable situation, turn it around and kind of paint me as a bad guy for asking WHY a situation exists.I have to wonder how this would have gone if you had said right up front-----" you know Steve,I have gone on over 70 shoots for FHB and they are all overwhelmingly all-white. Now that you mention it---I wonder why that is also"
You kind of skipped right past that possibility to quickly point to the authors and away from FHB.This whole conversation could have gone a lot differently.Nobody is asking you to save the world---but is it really out of line to ask these questions?
Steven, it's not out of line to ask questions. On the other hand, the way you were asking me felt pretty offensive -- as if you'd decided I was part of a racist conspiracy to prevent minorities from appearing in the magazine. You'll forgive me, I hope, if I took that personally. And I didn't mean to paint you as the bad guy, only to put you on the spot as you did me. That was churlish, and I apologize.
In the end though, all that I can promise you is that no one has ever been excluded from the magazine based on their race or gender. And as long as I'm the executive editor of this magazine, no one will ever be. Andy Engel, The Accidental Moderator
Very classy answer Andy---exactly what I would have expected the first time around.Although you are the one who brought up "conspiracy"---I am sure my questions can seem less than politic.
Let's try again---and let's both assume there is no hidden agenda.Your figure of 70 shoots seems like a good one---a nice round number.
Let's further assume that your experience in this matter pretty closely matches your co-workers. Fair assumption? Let's also assume that you and your co-workers are all reasonably educated,articulate individuals with a variety of life experiences.---still a fair assumption?
now for the sake of conversation let's change the ethnicity involved to ---say indians.That is,you have gone on about 70 shoots and you notice that all you ever see there are indians,indians ,indians.Way out of proportion to what you would expect to see at the grocery store,the bank,your kids school,any regular business establishment you patronise etc.wouldn't this very obvious statistical irrregularity come up in conversation eventually at the water fountain,or while you all are filling out the FHB office football pool?Wouldn't you all,as a magazine wonder about it?Remember 70 shoots covers years and years.
As a reader,I have a hard time believing that the situation we are actually discussing( not my silly made up one) has not come up before at FHB. I am not the sharpest crayon in the box---so if I noticed it I gotta believe a LOT of other people have noticed it.Pretty much any other consumer based business I can think of would wonder about this----and be looking at alternatives.( and leaving it up to their suppliers wouldn't fly either)
but,as the great Mike Smith used to say,
Whadda I know?
Edited 9/24/2002 1:36:41 PM ET by SHAZLETT
Thinking about your example, in the fifteen years that I worked in the trades in northwest NJ, I can literally count on my fingers the number of blacks I saw in the building trades. And two of them worked for me! I'd guess your experience is quite different?Andy Engel, The Accidental Moderator
I swear I was typing before you posted. Can't believe we used the same area for reference.
Man, that's weird. I grew up in Warren County, working there and in Sussex and Hunterdon for the most part. There was one black person in my high school! From what I see when I go back, it hasn't changed much at all.
BTW, you're right about the demographics of Taunton's location, but wrong about where we do most of our shoots. In the 6 years or so I've been here, I've travelled to 34 states and 3 Canadian provinces for photo shoots. Mostly though, these shoots were in very white areas.
Andy Engel, The Accidental Moderator
Edited 9/24/2002 4:19:31 PM ET by ANDYENGEL
Well, I did say I was speculating on that part<G>
now for the sake of conversation let's change the ethnicity involved to ---say indians.That is,you have gone on about 70 shoots and you notice that all you ever see there are indians,indians ,indians.Way out of proportion to what you would expect to see at the grocery store,the bank,your kids school,any regular business establishment you patronise etc.
But in rural and suburan Connecticut, seeing almost nothing but white people is the proportion expected, at the grocery store, bank and construction sites. You earlier in this thread stated that black people make up 25% of the population. That is incorrect, according to the Census Bureau. In fact, nationally, blacks account for 13% of the population. In Connecticut, it is only 9.1%. And in suburban and rural areas, it is less than 1%.
I would suspect that Taunton, being cost conscious and practicing efficient business practices, would prefer to do most of their articles close to home. Close to home is overwhelmingly populated by white people. The black people that do live in this area tend to be concentrated in the urban areas. Taunton probably doesn't do many articles in the more urban areas, cause there just isn't very much single family homebuilding done in the large Northeast cities. I realize some of this is speculation on my part. I don't know Taunton's business practices. What I do know is that I live in a similar environment (Northwest New Jersey) and I can go weeks without seeing a black person in my county, not even on a construction site. Just 30 miles east of me, blacks account for 30% of the local population.
I really can't believe there is some conspiracy to exclude minorities from the mag pictures.
Well I'm really confused. I do work all over the country and have found very few African-Americans in any state. A lot of Hispanic and more women in the last couple of years. My work has been in Houston, Dallas, New Orleans, Orlando, Minneapolis, Chicago, Honolulu, Maui, California, Gatlinburg, Las Vegas, Reno, Phoenix, Denver, Aspen, Georgia, Memphis, Nashville, Myrtle Beach, St. Augustine, Sydney, Guam, Saipan, Rio, etc.... These are all commercial projects except those in Chicago which are high end residential. The Hispanic workers varied from laborer, tile setter and millwork. The women were electricians, tile setters, plumbers and carpenters (concrete form work). The African-Americans were labours. Why, I don't know. Is it right, I don't have an answer. This seems to be the state of the construction industry from my limited view. I don't hire people. My job is to make sure that the contract documents are followed and I don't care who does the work (except for government funded projects which is another thread entirely) as long as they are qualified. That is what my client expects from me. Is the under representation of African-Americans in the construction trades an issue? Yes, but it takes more than a few photo's in an exclusive magazine to change it. It takes giving the opportunity to someone that shows the willingness to do the work. Oh well enough of the soap box speech.
I live 20 miles outside of Washington DC in a "new urban" community (Kentlands) that has seen 3500 units built in the last 10 years. The DC metropolitan area population is about 20% Black, 20% Hispanic, 10% Asian and 50% White. The residential construction industry is 90% Hispanic. If a sub is big enough to hire outside his own family, the crew is Hispanic. And increasingly, the subs themselves are too. Foundation, framing, drywall, plumbing, finish, flooring, roofing, siding and gutters, painting -- almost 100% Hispanic workers. HVAC and electric are holdouts. The blacks and women that you were beginning to see working in the 1970s and 80s are still there (in the same small numbers) in union, commercial, and government work. But in residential, around here the workforce speaks Spanish. I do too, an accident of my personal history, and its become an incredible advantage. I can't believe that California, Texas, Florida, Denver, Chicago, etc. aren't seeing something similar. And I agree with whoever started this thread that it's kind of amazing that it's not reflected in FHB.
You are seeing who is effectively willing to work in that geographic area, that field of endeavor for that wage. There's the family subs and such, but beyond the related members, who they hire will be representative of their own feelings, experiences and again the first part, who shows up for the job. There is also the 'union' angle in some places and other local oddities. There are probably folks who will 'take' a job if you pick them up and carry them along and make it so easy for them. BUT that's worse than NOT seeing minorities in my opinion.
SHAZLETT,
While I'm sure we all appreciate your concerns, they are clouded by your previously stated grudge about the respirator. I smell alterior motive here. I'm not sure andy's replies cut the mustard either. What did you expect but the company line?
I'm not sure I believe that blacks are 22% of the population, do you have some hard statistical links for that info? What percent of the workforce in general are they? How many are in the trades? Give us something other than junk science.
Watch a basketball game if you want to see a greater representation of blacks. There are more of them there because they are better at it, presumably. I find nothing wrong with that nor am I saying that is the case with construction. Watch the today show on saturday. I think they got rid of most of the white males.
I think out of the two hundred or so people I have interviewed for my company maybe two were minority. I evaluated them like everyone else. That's not entirely true, I had a preconception that a mexican guy was hard working because of his race. I guess that makes me racist. I used to use a black drywall company. All his guys were black. I know for a fact that there are many more white drywall guys in my area than black. Explain that one.
The world is not a fair place. It never will be. Filling the pages of FHB with minority faces will be more in line with the new status quo. Which is filling the media with quota-ized PC depiction of un-reality.
If you asked me to go get a picture of black tradesman performing a task that would make a good picture for FHB I would have a hard time. Here's what I'll do. I carry my digital camera everyday, so the next I see a black tradesman in my area I will post a picture. I'm really gonna look hard to. Let's see how long it takes.
Hey Andy, I have not seen a picture of an Amish guy in FHB. Can you do anything about that? How many issues would it take to represent every race and ethnic group with one picture of each? How many issues to represent every group according to their percentage of the population? Of the work force? Of Plumbers? Of electricians? How about handicapped electricians? Gay, bipolar, crossdressing trim carpenters? How about senior citizen, orphaned, pedophile slaters?Tom
Good idea! I want to go on record to be the first to suggest a centerfold of an Italian, Female, Tilesetter. Be sure to shoot from the right angle.Excellence is its own reward!
Wait a minute we had a picture of a female carp on a ladder. I would like to be the first to reconmend thatwe put her in the centerfold er ah the next issue of FHB, also the one in the bib coveralls was another fine example. Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
Tommy
Where are you from Iowa?
The penthouse we are providing trim and cabinetry for has a black crew doing the drywall, Menenites(sorry not Amish but close) doing the trim work and the mason that is doing the stone work on the front facade has some Latinos, and of course there is the same old plain white guys around but who the hell wants another pic of them.
Just a thought, or maybe Andy could fly out here and get some pics for FHB and rectify this whole mess. Andy I'll put you up for one day and that comes with a continental breakfast(juice and a crispy cream).
Just food for thought.
Doug
Churlish, big word for an editor. Entirely appropriate.
cheers, david
This discussion slipped by me till now .Here in Memphis it has to be one of the most balanced racial sets of trades that I know of. My concrete bricklayers stonemasons are a black crew that I have grown to truly respect these guys are so efficient with their concrete work that I will stand around and watch them just to learn something.My painting crew is all latin and though I have communication problems I still wouldn't hire anybody else because they have a gift at making my customers happy that has not been surpassed.As for the magazine having only white people in their pictures I think it might reflect that minorities are less into recognition for their work than putting food on the table.I will say this though these guys have eaned my utmost respect and I will not tolerate anybody disrespecting them homeowners included.
ANDYSZ2
I wonder if you have touched on something in suggesting that minorities may be less interested in literay portion of our trade.Excellence is its own reward!
There are lots of blacks in NASCAR, just not very many at the grand national level. But there have been a few. I think the current ones are Morty Buckles and __?___ Alford..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
"There are lots of blacks in NASCAR, just not very many at the grand national level. "
As in, you know, cream of the crop, top of the game, running in the points. Also, you need to go to Talladega for a race. I felt funny there was such an uneven mix of folks. Maybe 1/2 of 1/2 of a percent black spectators. Those I only saw in the VIP section or the private suites. Special guests or top sales folks or something I guess. At least the last races I was there for in 1999 and 2000 were that way. Maybe different up north, but it was a little odd. Also, they don't call it Winston racing for nothing, I about choked on cig smoke and we were OUTSIDE!
To the lack of top black drivers I have one word, TENNIS! The Williams sisters rule! They are about the only black players in the upper echelons and they win like mad.
I think the article about concrete countertops may have featured someone who does not live in Conn.
dlb
(insitgator of this thread)
Only woman in the trades I have seen was on commercial work. She was a terrazzo worker. Saw her on 2 jobs. There were 2 mural painters on another job, but that's not really trades.
Hispanic workers are very abundant in Chester County PA. Very hard-working, language barrier is a challenge sometimes. I know just enough to get in trouble.
One of the best commercial electricians I ever had the privelege to work with was a black guy. Incidentally, his dad was pissed at him for quitting college to work in the trades.
The jobs get more blended in commercial work. I think the hiring process is different at that level. With your small 1 or 2 or 3 man shops the hiring is often done by word-of-mouth, through the communication with your usual network. Larger shops hire thru the paper or agencies or other wider broadcast methods.
I noticed you used the term "black guy" ,I have a daughter , a senior in high school that said "that black guy across the hall " , in the presents of a teacher and was given a detention for useing the term " black guy" Granted I live in a rural Illinois town but sometimes I think the teachers that teach teachers are to blame for a lot of racism. This is just a comment not intended to fire anybody up. Hope everyone has the best day they ever had !
Ya, just a term to distinguish and direct. Five guys standing across a cafe' counter. 4 white and the third one black. If you wanted to pick out the third guy you might say 'the black guy'. If 4 black and one white you might say the white guy. If all 5 black or all 5 white you might say 'the third guy'. Is this racism because you didn't say 'the third guy' every time?
Too much sensitivity to racism around. Maybe I should get ruffled feathers every time someone says 'the guy with the glasses' when speaking of me.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
Forget the primal scream, just Roar!
Reminds me of an old racial joke. Don't worry, it's Irish!
Pat and Mike were talking about their horses and Mike said he had a pretty good team but that he had a hard time telling the two of them apart. This was important because each horse had his prefered side to pull from in the traces and they worked better together at the plow when he got them hitched right. So Pat suggested that Mike measure the two horses to distinguish and then tie a ribbon in thge mane of one or the other. Mike said, good idea and went hoime to check the height of each at the whithers. And that is how he found out that the gray horse was a half hand taller than the roan.Excellence is its own reward!
My turn to buy a round of refreshments, I'll have whatever that gentleman under the table is drinking...
I've been thinking this one over for a few days before writing. and even went and dug out my old copy of Fine Homebuilding #1 (February/march 1981) to see what the original goals were. Back then there was an article by Donna Richards, plus a photo shoot of igloo building picturing Mr. Tookillkee Tiquktak, and a question to the editor by Adrian. Lots of New England projects, but a range of various peoples. I'd like to see the magazine continue to lead and encourage fine homebuilders of all backgrounds, and I think a way to do that is to include a mix of real craftworkers in your pictures. Not a quota, but expand your search.
That mix of different people doing great work is out there. In my area, Almost West Virginia, the top concrete crews for custom homes are hispanic, and there is a highly recommended African-American concrete company here. The SIP contractor doing custom work has one male assistant as well as his daughter doing the installations.
My opinion is that having pictures that include more kinds of people will encourage your readers who might not fit the usual pattern, and be good for subscription sales. Personally, one of our daughters has been spending some of her summers doing church-sponsored rehab and new construction, her mother and father were in construction, and her grandmother and grandfather built their home. That's three generations of female readers for your magazine Andy.
Anyway, keep up the good work,
Dusty&Lefty
Hi Pif. I don't get it!
He who laughs last had the joke explained to him.
Well, then, let me explain...Excellence is its own reward!
No harm no foul
Hope I don't offend anyone by my description.
Re: Your "Black guy" story -
When I was in the army, the "black guys" liked to play a song with the lyrics: "Drop the bomb on the white boy's head".
I complained, but got nowhere. The "black guys" could say anything they wanted - Only "white guys" could possibly be considered racist.
Really ticked me off...........
Why do croutons come in airtight packages? They are only stale bread.
Ron,
That just shows you insensitivity to the idea of racism. A minority by virtue of belonging to that group can not be racist. I thought an intelligent, thoughtful guy like you would know that.
I don't buy a word of it but that's what I have heard.Tom
I lived in the South, moved to the north, well I guess its the north, Chicago, IL. I tell you, the racism up there is far different and more like a cancer than what it was here. Here, if someone is narrow enough to judge every single person by a single attribute of the demographic group they are a part of then they'll pretty much make it known. It's sort of like a deformity, some kind of missing limb or blind eye or something. While in Chicago, folks would be all nice to your face and then do things like pass you over for a raise, or not give you any cherry assignments. It didn't happen to me, but I saw it happen. Happened to the best friend I have ever had or ever will have. I also saw the reverse applied too. Guy behind me at one job didn't do squat and never got a single reprimand.
Growing up someone forgot to tell me I was supposed to feel different about folks cause of a single attribute. I loved Stubby who came and helped my mom when I was a little boy. She brought me turtle stew and frog legs. I thought she was the greatest! Her son would come play too. I didn't realize how poor they were, or how close to the bone we were, but we had a lot of fun playing together.
Steve, the distinction is a fine one. Most people aren't likely to jump off the roof. The risks there are obvious, and the guy taking them had it under control. I don't see what he was doing as being much more dangerous than a gymnastics class.
Wearing a respirator, or hearing protection, or rubber gloves protect against less immediate, more insidious risks. Wearing that gear is uncomfortable, one more thing you've gotta do before getting to the part of the job that you're getting paid for. I'd venture that all of us need reminding from time to time to put on the safety gear. Most of us don't need reminding not to jump off the roof.
Andy Engel, The Accidental Moderator
What in particular is wrong with a Caddy ? Have you seen the ESV XL that's supposed to be out next year ? If you were a GC and wanted to lease a fairly nice vehicle but wanted something more utilitarian than a Sedan de Ville, then why not ? Would you prefer they bought one of those Mercedes SUV's ?.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
YES, Please buy the MB SUV! I have friends that work at the plant in Tuscaloosa, AL... Thanks
I don't believe any serious contractor, anywhere, is going to buy a Caddy pickup.....not to use as a work vehicle....maybe to ponce around in. And a pickup is a work vehicle, or used to be before it became a fashion accessory. The ad, from what I remember, implied it was, and it's in a magasine whose main market arguably are working tradespeople (might be way off base on that one). If one did, and drove up my driveway, I'd seriously question his judgement. I haven't seen one (don't expect to), but I assume they sell for Caddy prices.....who is going to take that into a work environment?
As far as I'm concerned, the vehicle is aimed squarely at the yuppie market, same as the monster SUV 4 x 4's that never get put into four wheel drive, and never get out of a suburban environment. Fantasy and illusion. People are totally free to spend their money how they like, and I'm free to think it's one of the dumbest ideas I've ever seen in vehicles. It'll probably mint a fortune for Cadillac.
Personally, I drive nine or ten year old 4 x 4 F-150 that's been places and looks it....it gets a workout every winter just getting me to paved road. It will be replaced with another Ford, or maybe a Dodge or a GMC.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
I'm not attacking, or pointing any fingers at anyone, but all this talk about minorities in the trades and in the magazine reminds me of something I've been thinking about since I started reading this thread a couple days ago.
Many ethnic and racial minorities have been crying "racism" for as long as I can remember. The problem is, I'm a white, protestant male, so I can't see the privaleges that affords me; it all just seems "normal" to me. But I've always tried to figure out what all the clamor was about.
So anyway, about 12 years ago I was enrolled in a college that puts the "L" in "Liberal Arts" and there was PLENTY of talk about white oppression and the effects on minorities here in the States, and around the world. It seemed like every day I was getting hammered with this example of racism, or that example of classism or sexism. The one that made me stop in my tracks and start thinking was the example of the way minority's contributions have been marginalized in film and later on TV.
For example, after the Civil War, there were tens of thousands of Blacks looking for work. And apparently many, many of them went West and worked the cattle trails and as ranch hands. To the point that some historians estimate something like 40% of this work force was Black. But for the life of me I couldn't remember seeing any Black faces in any Westerns on TV or in the movies, unless they were the cooks.
We hear all this talk about "role models". Well, if a young kid only sees people who look like him or her depicted as less than the hero, how the heck are they ever gonna picture themself in that role? That's how deep racism runs in our society.
We live in a racist society, probably a racist world. I don't know if ANYONE is immune from it because it's all we know. No-one likes to think of themself as a racist, that's why it's difficult to talk about, especially in a forum like this where we can't read each other's non verbal ques. But I think the first step to solving any problem is recognizing it. Keep it up everyone, keep talking and thinking about it - it's hard, but it's important.
Brinkmann for president in '04
Good thoughts Jim,
I'm not sure its relevent to whether or not there are pictures of minorities in FHB.
I wanted to make a comment about your earlier post regarding dump trailers, however. They do save the customer money in many types of jobs. I wouldn't be without one now. I would like two have two or three of them as I really miss mine when its not at the house. For example, say you don't need a whole container or have no place for one on site or are on multiple jobs at a given time. Unless you have a roll-off, the dumpster is not nearly as mobile. You can generally get a dump trailer right up to the work when needed. Mine holds 10 yds. and 3 tons. That might be a whole roof tear off, or many smaller jobs that may require a dumpster. I pay 65 bucks a ton to tip, and I generally have a ton and a half. Maybe a hundred bucks a load plus time and mileage to the dump. which is another 50 bucks. So it costs me a buck fifty a load. A thirty yard dumpster will cost me about 600 bucks a load. So on average the dumptrailer is 30 percent less. Factor in the labor savings of putting it where you want it, ease of loading, smaller footprint, no damage to drive ways, less neighbor stuff thrown in, free advertising on the side, pick up and delivery at your command, no double handling of garbage, only pay for what you use, etc. It can me much, much more economical.
Normally if I think I can fill a thirty yard, I will get one but I hate those 7 foot sides. If I fill it, and need another five yards of space, the dump is really economical over ordering another container. I find myself using it even when I know I will fill a thirty, because its so convenient.
Another advantage is that I don't have garbage trucks backing up my driveway to pick up a dumpster.
It really made me angry when you said what you said about dump trailers. I wanted to rip your lips off and sew them to my dump trailer. If you don't stop I might have to drive it out to washington and do a dump trailer hole shot in your front yard. I love that thing, man.
Did I say that out loud? Sorry.
Tom
Edited 9/25/2002 5:53:53 PM ET by Tommy B.
Whoa there Tom. I often have dreams about dump trailers. I love them. Just last week I had a 1/2 hour to kill and was in the area so I stopped by a local dealer and ran my hand along the sides of that 5X10 with the side that hinges down so you can load/unload with a fork lift. Sweet!
What I was belly achin' about was the fact that there was a two page spread wherein Tom stated all the great convienience you just stated, and finished up by saying "and it saves the customer the cost of the dumpster". Which read as if since he had the trailer, he brought it onsite free. Now, I really like this guy. Kind of guy I grew up around. But if he's saying the customer doesn't pay for that trailer either through a higher mark-up, or higher hourly rate, or some equipment charge, I'm not buying it.
And besides all that, you're too late. I don't have any lips. I ticked off the wrong editor, he ripped my lips off a couple months ago, and they haven't grown back yet. I was thinking of having skin grafted from my feet, since I stick my foot in my mouth so often anyway - might save a little time, huh?
Brinkmann for president in '04
I think that truck thingy caddie is around $45-48k. Yipes! My local GMC dealer has 2002 Sierra's cheap enough I could get three for that price.
The caddie is just a response to the Lincoln Blackwood, or vice-versa. I did see one of the caddies on the road, but it had a lady driver in her late 40's early 50's. Looked like she might have been ??? realestate sales maybe.
For personal use, I'd probably get something nicer than a vinyl-seated, rubber mats, no carpet, no options base model. However, if I was buying it as a company vehile for a crew to use it'd be the stripper or a used one that still didn't have a lot of options. Heat, AC and basic radio. (ABS if it wasn't std)
I think you've been away from the mainstream too long Adrian - a lot of the contractors/builders I know drive an STS, Lexis 400, 7 series Bimmer, or an S-class; they're managers and wear suits. They don't usually drive pick-ups. The next tier down give the Sedan de Ville to DW and have to drive some a bit more utilitarian: Tahoes, Expeditions, Denali's, and all those foreign SUV's. Both of these groups are potential buyers of Caddy SUV's, including the reconfigurable pickup.
From the sounds of it, you resent the buying power of all of these folks..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Phill...always there with a snide slur questioning someone elses motives.
As far as resenting someone elses buying power....wrong guy. But I do frequently find myself thinking " more money than sense". Not the same thing.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Get both, but one great thing about JLC is that you can get it on a CDROM. The CDROM is a great idea. It has all of the past issues and you can search for any topic. I wish that FHB offered a CDROM or at least a CDROM with the index to the magazines. I typically remember that there was an article about a issue that I now faced, but I have to search through my pile of magazines (a lot of dust since I have issues from 1993) and look for the end of year copy for the year end index. (what a long sentence).
http://www.taunton.com/store/pages/sph021.aspbobl Volo Non Voleo Joe's cheat sheet
Yup, there it is & it's in Adobe Acrobat format too. Since everyone is entitled to an opinion, here's mine. If it was free I wouldn't be interested if it is Adobe Acrobat. I have one big catalog on a CD that is Adobe & it is the slowest piece of s**t I've ever seen.
Now ten people can tell me I'm wrong, or I'm doing something wrong.
Joe H
Thats great. The JLC is in adobe acrobat and I have had no problems using it. One other mag. I would recommend is the Old House Journal (not this old house)
http://www.oldhousejournal.com/
I wouldn't know. I can't seem to find JLC in Ottawa, Canada. I was in L.A. last May and tried several mag shops including Borders, Barnes and Nobel etc. FH was everywhere and JCL was nowhere and all I got was some very blank stares when I asked. Does the mag really exist or is it all a sham.
:)
paul
JLC is by subscription only as far as I know. If you go up on their website at http://www.jlconline, you can subscribe online.
ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!
Mike
Hi Mike, thanks for dropping in.Andy Engel, The Accidental Moderator
I've seen it (JLC) at a lumber yard.
didn't see it the last i was there thobobl Volo Non Voleo Joe's cheat sheet
Andy
How come when I click on the JLC link that Hausdok posted it wont show up? Some kind of FHB block?
I have never seen or heard of this mag. dont even know what jlc stands for.
Doug
Journal of Light Construction JLConline.com
no dot com on the link>>>
http://www.jlconline.com
Thanks Qtrmeg
Thought there was some conspiracy thing going on here to thwart the competition, just me to dumb to recognize the missing .com.
Doug
No, there wouldn't be a block to the JLC site from here. Andy Engel, The Accidental Moderator
Ya think my wife will miss me when I tell her I'm going out to buy a mag?
When you get in to SoCal try Business Industry News (BIN) They sell it theyre located by D-Land about a block away. Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
I kept waiting for a new paperback index to come out and got tired of waiting. So a year or so back I xeroxed all the yearly indexes and stapled them together in order. Makes it handy to find things. Now if I can just remember where I put it...Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
Forget the primal scream, just Roar!
I'd have to agree with Ron and Andy. Anybody serious about this trade would read both.
DRC
Hi Dave, didn't realize it was you right away. How's things?Andy Engel, The Accidental Moderator
Hey Andy,
Yep, it's me. I hang out here a lot these days. Great crowd, and I get to learn a lot of cool stuff.
Things here be good. Workin' hard, good crew, no complaints.
If I stay at it long enough I might even be able to button the pants I used to wear before I took that #$%&! editing job. <VBG>
DRC