I have been planning to add a dormer very similar to one in featured in this months Fine Homebuilding. I have had 6 contractors in to quote the job and I have not been able to find a competent builder. Prices have ranged from 1500 to the unknown (This is not the most important factor in my home improvement decisions) and I’ve been told by one contractor that I need to remove the entire roof structure.
I have not hired any of these contractors for various reasons. Mainly I don’t feel confident that they possess the skills necessary to do it correctly. I am pretty handy and know enough that shouldn’t hire any of those contractors.
A little more information re: our house. It is a standard 1920’s colonial with a hip style roof. The house has 2 existing dormers (1 on the front and 1 on a side) and we would like to ad one to a third side of the roof to add head room inside for a walk up staircase that already exists.
Can anyone recommend a contractor that they have had good experience with north of Boston. Otherwise I’ll be buying a construction calculator and building it myself soon.
Edited 4/4/2007 4:06 pm ET by sirjace
Replies
How far north of Boston are you?
How did you find the contractors you got to bid on the job?
Were they bidding from drawn plans or do you want them to design the dormers as well?
Although there are already existing dormers and the roof has held together this long, modern codes don't like the old undersized hip rafters. Anyone tearing into your roof is taking on a lot of liability.
Do you want the face of the dormer to line up with the outside of the lower floors or to step in as is more common and usually more attractive? If so then orientation of the joists could be an issue, as well as the size of the joists that will be expected to take on roof loads.
How far north of Boston are you?
15 Miles north in the North Shore area...
How did you find the contractors you got to bid on the job?
Found them through local contacts and a few yellow pages calls.
Were they bidding from drawn plans or do you want them to design the dormers as well?
We do not have plans yet and we were allowing the contracts to make adjustments/recommendations as they saw fit. Anotherwords we were a bit flexible.
Although there are already existing dormers and the roof has held together this long, modern codes don't like the old undersized hip rafters. Anyone tearing into your roof is taking on a lot of liability.
Understood, that is why I am trying to find someone who will do it correctly. I understand it is an old house that is way behind in code and changes like this often require updates in-order to pass inspection. I am just looking for someone that can communicate these issues clearly :)
Do you want the face of the dormer to line up with the outside of the lower floors or to step in as is more common and usually more attractive? If so then orientation of the joists could be an issue, as well as the size of the joists that will be expected to take on roof loads
I believe it will have to line up with the lower floors. The dormer size is largly affected by the inside walls of the walkup staircase that we are building this over. It could be larger but definately not smaller.
Edited 4/4/2007 4:51 pm ET by sirjace
>We do not have plans yet and we were allowing the contracts to make adjustments/recommendations as they saw fit. Anotherwords we were a bit flexible.<
There's the reason for the wild variations in price. Pay one of them or someone to put it to paper for you and then bid it out. Be sure to pay for the design time or you're just screwing the guy.
Agreed and we are currently looking for an architect that can put that to paper and also help us plan out some other renovations we hope to complete once the roof is done.
You should make sure your architect will consult with a structural engineer to ensure proper loading/bearing issues are dealt with by someone able/willing to take the liability for such. I don't know how someone can realistically bid on such a project without a set of complete plans that have addressed these issues.I'm surprised none of the contractors (out of six!) who spoke to you brought this up, or did they?
Earlier on I was not aware of how important a good set of plans were. Now I am wondering the same thing. Its kind of scary how many people are willing to take on any job for a buck. I am definately trying to avoid that and will make sure that they are licensed and insured. I think that just adds a level of credibility.
One contractor that I was going to hire did point out that he needed drawings. He had an design / build company he works with that could have done them. I was ready to hire him but he was hurt badly in a car accident shortly after. It's only him and 1 other guy and they won't be able to do this job for a while. It's really too bad. I talked with him a couple times since and he's doing better but he has a long road ahead of him.
I don't know about contracting laws in Mass, and I'll probably take some flack for saying this, but here, projects under $30k can be done by unlicensed individuals legally. That is not to say that he still shouldn't be insured. So, basically carpenters can work without a license. General Contractors (GCs) need a license. Some of the guys you talked to may have been more of carpenters than GCs. Further in some states a license is just an indication that a fee has been paid and doesn't indicate any particular level of technical competency. Granted, if a license is required, whatever the circumstance is, a licensed person should perform the job for liability reasons. OTOH, any person who is self employed in construction trades needs to have insurance and a certificate of insurance needs to be forwarded to whoever hires him.
In MA, in the very least, a carpenter doing business needs to have a Home Improvement Contractor's Registration... this is the sort of "pay a fee, here's your ticket" type license that you are referring to. A 'builder's license' which is actually called an Unrestricted (or restricted) Construction Supervisor's license is a little more involved and involves testing and a prep course.
It's been so long since I went through the process that I honestly forget what the limit of the home improvement contractor's license is. But IIRC, you cannot pull a permit without the latter license... Construction Supervisor. And in MA, that dormer job would definitely require a permit.View Image
An architect is able to assume that liability. Some will do the load work themselves and some will consult an engineer. It depends on their capabilities and the scop of the job.
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I agree Piffin, but its always important that the homeowner inquires about that with the designer or architect, as I've seen and heard of some architects who shy from away from specing out design loads. I have a certain opinion of people who charge a high fee for half a job, but I'll leave that to your imagination.
Aren't the Silva brothers in that area? Wouldn't it be cool to have Tom Silva do it? He's probably too busy and too expensive though.
What's too expensive. I don't mind paying to have something done correctly. I just overlooked them figuring they mostly worked on TOH projects.
One of the premier framing contractors here at BT is operating north side of Boston, I belive.he has a thread on dormers here recently full of photosbrian mcCarthy - screen name Deiselpig
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Thank you for the recommendation. I will send him a message.
thanks
Why thank you Paul. Where should I send the commission check to? :)
Seriously though, we've exchanged emails and I refered him/her to a design/build firm that I trust.View Image
You passed on that job?
But you coulda had a clam plate at Kelly's every day for lunch! Okay, maybe a clam plate day one, roast beef day two...
Silly man!<!----><!---->
As the thread progressed, it started to look like the client needed more than deisel typicaly provides. By getting them in touch with a design/build firm they can get all they need and Brian might still be doing the framing and cover-up.
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Yes, you pretty much nailed it Piffin. I really don't like to build much of anything without a decent set of drawings. Anybody, including myself, could draw something well enough to get a dormer past permitting... but that doesn't mean a whole lot. I don't need the liability or the stress and I don't believe a situation like that serves anybody well... myself or the client. The OP will also really need a full service GC to bring this to completition anyway (something I'm currently not interested in providing) and from the the sound of it, it would benefit them to establish a good working relationship now for some of their future plans.
View Image
Edited 4/5/2007 7:46 am ET by dieselpig
Thanks guys Brian has been very helpful. One thing I realized after we echanged emails was that most of the contractors that I turned away were not licensed and one of them was trying to get me to pull my own permits.
I didn't know exactly why but I knew it wasn't the right thing to do. So to clarify I am definately only looking work with established local business and licensed professionals like Brian. No illegals here... while some people are willing to take the risk I just don't think it is worth it.
Anyway I'm working now to find a design firm that can put all of our ideas to paper. Once I get that done I'll make sure to get Brian over to look at the job.
Thanks guys :)
I wan't chastising him for passing on the job. My reply was sorta tongue-in-cheek...or maybe "roast beef-on-palate."Any time I hear "a little bit north of Boston on the shore", I'm like one of Pavlov's dogs. The gastro-intestinal juices start flowing and I start thinking of Kelly's.I have many good memories from my collij years sitting on the seawall with friends, way late at night (or way early in the morning!), having a roast beef sammy or whole-belly clam plate "nightcap." Listening to good tunes from the car radio and either attempting to solve the world's problems, solve our girl problems, or initiating conversation with other diners of the female persuasion and trying to start new girl problems.<g>Ah, the old days. And some were actually good!<g>Mongo
I knew that.Sometimes I pose replies in consideration of the wider audience.Other times I should remember the wider audience and shut up.;)
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Oh man.... I love me some Kelly's! We've actually got one really close by in Natick. I can never decide what to get when I got there so I end up with waaaay too much food. View Image
Mmm...Kelly's...
I used to have a woodworking shop set up at a friend's house in Winthrop. Half of my shop tools are still there. Lunch was often a quick drive up to Kelly's in Revere, the original location I think. They make a mean fish-n-chips and you get to sit on the seawall and stare at Nahant.
Almost makes me miss Massachusetts.
First and most importantly re: Kelly's... You'll be happy to know that they have opened up some new locations and there is one less then 2 miles from my house. I am willing to include roast beef sandwiches for lunch in the contracts :)
Re: the licenses in Mass... I believe there is sort of "Emergency Fund" in Mass that the licensed contractors pay into. If as a homeowner something goes wrong with the job he can make a claim. The funds, and protections are only available if you hire a contractor the Home Improvement license at a minimum.
I may be a little off on the details but that is what I understood. Anyway I hope I never have to deal with any of that. In my mind alot of things need to happen to get to a point where you need to make that sort of claim. 99% of problems can be worked out when there is good planning and open communication.
Have a great easter everyone :)
Re: the licenses in Mass
I have a MA supervisor's license, expired a year or two ago, but I remember having to pay $100 into that "emergency fund" that I don't believe any homeowner ever collected from. A supervisor's license is a seperate item. You'll want a contractor who carries both.
You're right on about good planning and good communication. Please continue posting here--the Breaktime Super Heroes (named by a forum regular) can walk you through the process and we love seeing a project come together.
Thanks woodguy. I will keep everyone posted. If I get a chance I take some pics of the project areas before work begins. I currently have a few names of architects and will be working to get some drawings done.
I framed a fire job about 1-1/2 years ago were the attic had a front dormer already with a hip roof to match the existing roof.
When you walked upstairs to the attic, you literally had to duck under the rafters to get up the final flight of stairs. I couldn't believe this when I saw it. The homeowner was 6'4" also.
I ripped the front half of the roof off and reframed a new hipped dormer. I also suggested to the builder to see if hew wanted to cut the section off roof off above the above the attic stairs and we could frame a hipped dormer on top of walls that would give more head room.
He talked to the HO and that's what we did. I think this is what you might be talking about. I'll post some pictures of what I did. The last picture will show you the two dormers, the front and the side one which is the one above the stairwell.